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Mindwalker wrote:snip...
Perception Checks :


First, perception will be ME based, not IQ. IQ measures knowledge, not wisdom, and I believe is not correct for determining the strength of perception. Think of some of the teachers you’ve had; most are very knowledgeable and intelligent, but a few had a tendency to walk into doors, didn’t they?
And ME is the meshure of Metal stuborness....still not wisdom. Besides IQ meashure the Manipulations of knowage not knowage itself. But I agree with the concept of not basing it off the IQ....in fact I would go with a whole new attribute for preception, like the guys who started Protoculture Addictes did.

Instead, Perception bonuses will be based on the ME chart, and will be equal to the granted bonus vs. psionics.
The perception bonuse is already figured out with the ME PSI bonuse table.

...snip...

Hit Points :

Hit points are calculated after any modifications to your PE have occurred due to skills and OCC/RCC bonuses.
HP is already figured out after all HP modifications.

Attacks per Melee :

H2H Attacks: We will be using the revised rules, as per Rifts Ultimate Edition. All characters start out with 2 attacks, +H2H skills, + Other.
Only in Rifts, becasue other settings has different APM rules.


...snip

Mindwalker wrote:As for HP being decided after skill bonuses, Rifts UE has HP determination as step 2, prior to picking an OCC or skills. Nowhere do I see it saying it should be determined after skill/ OCC modifications. Apparently you feel the same as I, that this should be decided following all changes, but by the book this would be a house rule.

Mindwalker wrote:Well, if anyone can give me a page number in the Rifts main book where it says that HP is determined after all stat changes are finished I will admit it is not needed for a house rule.
However, if the only justification possible is that "it makes the most sense this way", then I will agree, and say THAT is why I made it a solidly stated rule in my games. It makes sense, but wasnt stated in the formal rules.

Mindwalker wrote:... I know, hence the thread name... 'House Rules'.

Im not arguing the rules, just stating my reasoning for altering them.

Mindwalker wrote:Well, my view is that, no matter the order you decide to follow the steps, be it the way I interpret the intention of the rules (In order), or the way you seem to have (any which way but loose), my House Rule covers all bases.

Whether you go step A-X, or step X-A, you still decide HP after all modifications in my games.

Mindwalker wrote:snip..
As for HP being decided after skill bonuses, Rifts UE has HP determination as step 2, prior to picking an OCC or skills. Nowhere do I see it saying it should be determined after skill/ OCC modifications. Apparently you feel the same as I, that this should be decided following all changes, but by the book this would be a house rule.

...snip.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:KC...the only setting that your race is chosen after you make stat rolls is HU, every other setting the very thing you choose first is your race, bscasue otherwise you wouldn't know what Die to roll for each stat.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:KC...the only setting that your race is chosen after you make stat rolls is HU, every other setting the very thing you choose first is your race, bscasue otherwise you wouldn't know what Die to roll for each stat.

Correct.
Yet "Step 1" in RUE is to roll up the eight attributes.
It's only at "Step 5" that you "Pick an OCC".
"Most characters in the North American setting will be Men at Arms, Adventurers, Scholars, Psychics, Practitioners of Magic or a Dragon."

Which indicates that the steps aren't really intended to be followed in the order listed.

The ineffible GM wrote:KC, I can't help but think you're being somewhat obnoxious here...you're arguning the semantics of an argument of semantics.

The book doesn't say "This is the only order you can use to create a character", but it does say "these are the steps for creating a character".

No, the order doesn't make sense, Mindwalker has agreed with you on this. His whole point was that he wanted it written down somewhere instead of assuming that everyone would think the same way he does.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:KC...the only setting that your race is chosen after you make stat rolls is HU, every other setting the very thing you choose first is your race, bscasue otherwise you wouldn't know what Die to roll for each stat.

Correct.
Yet "Step 1" in RUE is to roll up the eight attributes.
It's only at "Step 5" that you "Pick an OCC".
"Most characters in the North American setting will be Men at Arms, Adventurers, Scholars, Psychics, Practitioners of Magic or a Dragon."

Which indicates that the steps aren't really intended to be followed in the order listed.

And then you argue that this 'indication' is more important than Mindwalker's 'indication' that the steps are supposed to be followed because they are presented as 'the process of character creation' without anywhere explicitely saying that you should or can change the order around.

This is an inconsistency within the game, and that you are attempting to win an argument of opinion while mindwalker appears to be more than ahppy to say "we have different opinions, and that's that".

Killer Cyborg wrote:

The ineffible GM wrote:KC, I can't help but think you're being somewhat obnoxious here...you're arguning the semantics of an argument of semantics.

Does that make less sense tham posting a house rule that's actually an official rule, then getting testy when people point it out to you?

The book doesn't say "This is the only order you can use to create a character", but it does say "these are the steps for creating a character".

No, the order doesn't make sense, Mindwalker has agreed with you on this. His whole point was that he wanted it written down somewhere instead of assuming that everyone would think the same way he does.

That's great, but that doesn't make it a house rule.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:KC...the only setting that your race is chosen after you make stat rolls is HU, every other setting the very thing you choose first is your race, bscasue otherwise you wouldn't know what Die to roll for each stat.

Correct.
Yet "Step 1" in RUE is to roll up the eight attributes.
It's only at "Step 5" that you "Pick an OCC".
"Most characters in the North American setting will be Men at Arms, Adventurers, Scholars, Psychics, Practitioners of Magic or a Dragon."

Which indicates that the steps aren't really intended to be followed in the order listed.

This is an inconsistency within the game, and that you are attempting to win an argument of opinion while mindwalker appears to be more than ahppy to say "we have different opinions, and that's that".

People who lose arguments are always happy to say that.

This isn't a matter of opinion; the facts are plain to see.
He's making a house rule that's already an actual rule.

The ineffible GM wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

The ineffible GM wrote:KC, I can't help but think you're being somewhat obnoxious here...you're arguning the semantics of an argument of semantics.

Does that make less sense tham posting a house rule that's actually an official rule, then getting testy when people point it out to you?

Mindwalker hasn't been getting testy, you have been.

He has written out a rule to be used in the games that he runs, a rule that does not appear in the book.
How is this not a house rule?

You have argued that one passage of the book "indicates" that the order as printed does not need to be followed as is. You have not mentioned anything anywhere indicating where Mindwalker's rule is printed in any rules section of any Palladium book.

This is an inconsistency within the game, and that you are attempting to win an argument of opinion while mindwalker appears to be more than ahppy to say "we have different opinions, and that's that".

People who lose arguments are always happy to say that.

This isn't a matter of opinion; the facts are plain to see.
He's making a house rule that's already an actual rule.

You have not laid out any facts.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Mindwalker wrote:As for HP being decided after skill bonuses, Rifts UE has HP determination as step 2, prior to picking an OCC or skills. Nowhere do I see it saying it should be determined after skill/ OCC modifications. Apparently you feel the same as I, that this should be decided following all changes, but by the book this would be a house rule.

By that logic, you roll your Hit Points before you even decide what species you are.

Killer Cyborg wrote: by your own logic, unless the rules state specifically that you must follow the character creation steps in order, then you don't have to.
Saying that you DO is a house rule.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:KC...the only setting that your race is chosen after you make stat rolls is HU, every other setting the very thing you choose first is your race, bscasue otherwise you wouldn't know what Die to roll for each stat.

Correct.
Yet "Step 1" in RUE is to roll up the eight attributes.
It's only at "Step 5" that you "Pick an OCC".
"Most characters in the North American setting will be Men at Arms, Adventurers, Scholars, Psychics, Practitioners of Magic or a Dragon."

Which indicates that the steps aren't really intended to be followed in the order listed.

Your only reference is to an "indication" which you have interpreted to mean something that others may or may not have interpreted the same way. That is what an opinion is. You are arguing your opinion.

You have thus far argued that one does not need to follow the character creation steps as presented. Even so, no where do the rules say (that I am aware of, if you can reference a page number to prove me wrong please do) that you should determine your Hit Points after you determine your skills. THAT is what Mindwalker's rule is about.

I am curious KC, if perhaps this entire argument is based upon some small base misunderstanding: What is your definition of a house rule?
I would say that anything which is set out as a rule for a game, which does not appear in any official release from the creator/creator company would be a house rule.
Is your definition different than this?

Mindwalker wrote:Um, I never posting anything "In a huff". I stated that I thought the rule wasnt clear enough to be considered as cannon, and as such I felt it needed a house rule. I asked for book clarification if anyone had it to show if I was wrong.

I at no point posted in a way as to be purposfully confrontational as, quite honestly, Im just not that invested in this. If anything I said came out otherwise, well, Im sorry for my lack of web etiquette, but not my intention, as it wasnt to insult or challenge.

That said, you really seem to be getting worked up about this stuff,

So, if anyone has any comments about the contents of the rules, I'll talk about em, but Im done with the meta stuff. Please dont flame me for not wanting to continue it.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
It bugs me when people try to come down on me without good reason, but that's about it.

So, if anyone has any comments about the contents of the rules, I'll talk about em, but Im done with the meta stuff.