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It is not evil.

mAd eAgle wrote:Just curious to see what you guys have to say. I would think that if it is used for a good purpose (PPE, eg: slaying more demons) then it would be ok.

Enlighten me.

Depends.

If the "good guy" sacrifices the demon for the sole purpose of getting his PPE, then that is evil (doing bad things to only bad people/beings is still evil, and would put the character into the Aberrant alignment range).

If the mage is in the middle of a battle field, and is drawing upon the PPE of those falling around him (allied and foe) to power his spells or recharge, then that would be o.k. (still a Principled character might have some problems with it, but if the cause was just they might still do it).

Of course, the GM could say the PPE has a demonic taint and sucking in that taint could have some influence on the mage, at least temporarily.

I am not opposed to that, but in my games PPE is energy and lacks alignment.

JTwig wrote:

mAd eAgle wrote:Just curious to see what you guys have to say. I would think that if it is used for a good purpose (PPE, eg: slaying more demons) then it would be ok.

Enlighten me.

Depends.

If the "good guy" sacrifices the demon for the sole purpose of getting his PPE, then that is evil (doing bad things to only bad people/beings is still evil, and would put the character into the Aberrant alignment range).

If the mage is in the middle of a battle field, and is drawing upon the PPE of those falling around him (allied and foe) to power his spells or recharge, then that would be o.k. (still a Principled character might have some problems with it, but if the cause was just they might still do it).

Yup!

lather wrote:I am not opposed to that, but in my games PPE is energy and lacks alignment.

I'd make the energy carry a taint of the alignment. Better story elements like a dark forrest. the leylines have had evil monsters at they get tainted.

But I'm different.

Rimmerdal wrote:

lather wrote:I am not opposed to that, but in my games PPE is energy and lacks alignment.

I'd make the energy carry a taint of the alignment. Better story elements like a dark forrest. the leylines have had evil monsters at they get tainted.

But I'm different.

Well, as I said, I cannot say there is anything wrong with this. I do not even disagree with doing it this way.

mAd eAgle wrote:Just curious to see what you guys have to say. I would think that if it is used for a good purpose (PPE, eg: slaying more demons) then it would be ok.

Enlighten me.

It's a thin line.
Which side of it you're on with this depends on the precise circumstances.

some would say that resorting to what the enemy does is below a hero's high standards. a principled character probably wouldn't (not in my games with out a roll vs. conscience) but i would think the others would with little to no debate with oneself and their principles.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

mAd eAgle wrote:Just curious to see what you guys have to say. I would think that if it is used for a good purpose (PPE, eg: slaying more demons) then it would be ok.

Enlighten me.

It's a thin line.
Which side of it you're on with this depends on the precise circumstances.

Aberant alignment. A.k.a. The ends justify means.

Mouser13 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

mAd eAgle wrote:Just curious to see what you guys have to say. I would think that if it is used for a good purpose (PPE, eg: slaying more demons) then it would be ok.

Enlighten me.

It's a thin line.
Which side of it you're on with this depends on the precise circumstances.

Aberant alignment. A.k.a. The ends justify means.

Aberrant alignment AKA Evil.

I don't know that it's evil, but it's sure not good. All the evil alignments would probably have no problem with this, and even the selfish ones could get away with it, but sacrificing even something evil for its PPE is a hard sell for a good character.

mAd eAgle wrote:OK. I'll clarify my example.

In the heat of battle where various demons have killed several allies and a couple of PC's, the magic user of principled alignment is down to the bones of their PPE with a horde swarming at them, does alignment really matter or does self preservation? I am of the mind from personal experience that one will do anything to help their mates to pull through the day. Is it evil to want to overcome impossible odds by utilising all the tools at ones disposal?

If I am principled alignment does that stop me from throwing a grenade into the demon's midst? If they die and their life essence is channelled for a higher purpose - like helping said principled magic user save his mates - is it not then of the utmost good with that intension?

Here's the thing:
If the lives of you and your buddies are all on the line, would your character be willing to commit an evil act in order to save all of your lives?

It depends on how you play it.
Generally the idea is that sucking the PPE from a death takes a bit of prep work, and isn't something you can do in battle anyway.
But if you're killing the demons anyway, then I don't think that it would be specifically evil to take the PPE from them at that moment.
(Although I could certainly make an argument that it would be evil under any circumstances, and a very good one.)

On the other hand, capturing a demon, tying him down, and ritually killing him with a dagger in order to get the PPE would be evil.

mAd eAgle wrote:OK. I'll clarify my example.

In the heat of battle where various demons have killed several allies and a couple of PC's, the magic user of principled alignment is down to the bones of their PPE with a horde swarming at them, does alignment really matter or does self preservation? I am of the mind from personal experience that one will do anything to help their mates to pull through the day. Is it evil to want to overcome impossible odds by utilising all the tools at ones disposal?

If I am principled alignment does that stop me from throwing a grenade into the demon's midst? If they die and their life essence is channelled for a higher purpose - like helping said principled magic user save his mates - is it not then of the utmost good with that intension?

Well, it is a quick drop from principled to aberant(spelling). Since the only thing that really changed is their ends justify the means.


I.E. you may be principled alignment 99% of the time, but when it comes down to it if it is your only chance for survival you will take. During that time you are playing aberrant(evil).

Personally if he is principled no way.

I would say a principled character wouldn't do this without a small alignment hit - even if it is just a drop to scrupulous. To me, there is a moral distinction between killing the demons and channelling their life essence in such a way that the character can take advantage of it.

You bring up the point of imminent death, well, people have gone to their deaths before to maintain their beliefs and ethics.

The real, question is does the person see it has wrong and try not to do again. If so they should be able to keep their alignment. If they continue to do and other things they would shift to aberrant.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't you only utilize the doubled PPE at death as part of a ritual sacrifice?

To the original question, I'd say that it depends on the situation and the alignment of the mage (ie; things would have to be pretty FUBAR for a good mage to consider doing something like that, but that's just me).

Grell wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't you only utilize the doubled PPE at death as part of a ritual sacrifice?

The PPE is doubled at the moment of death, whether that death be the apex of a ritual or a bullet in the brainpan on the battlefield is of no consequence.

Hmmmm, interesting!

PPE is energy.
It is not the soul or life essence.

lather wrote:PPE is energy.
It is not the soul or life essence.

What he said.

Taking the PPE from an enemy can be an evil act ONLY if

A]]You plan it out beforehand, deliberately to cause death just to get the PPE;

and

B]]If ou're one of those weirdo gamimg McGuffins who believe that it is ALWAYS wrong to take stuff from the fallen (ally, enemy, or unaffiliated NPC).

Few people ever seem to think anything wrong with picking up that defeated Dire Wolf's Rune Weapon/Gold Pieces/Spell Scroll....so what's the big deal with "picking up" his doubled PPE (as long as it wasn't premeditated murder...)???

cornholioprime wrote:Few people ever seem to think anything wrong with picking up that defeated Dire Wolf's Rune Weapon/Gold Pieces/Spell Scroll....so what's the big deal with "picking up" his doubled PPE (as long as it wasn't premeditated murder...)???

Because you're absorbing the demon's life-force, merging it with your own, then using it to work magic.
A bit more intimate than just picking up a fallen weapon.

What do you mean by life force?

lather wrote:What do you mean by life force?

Strangely enough, I do not mean "Life Force"... not exactly.


The role of PPE in the various living things that it inhabits is vagued and varied, so I can't pinpoint exactly what it does for people.
PPE is not the soul.
PPE is not a lifeforce.

But it's something pretty close in those directions. Stealing a creature's PPE is akin to drinking it's blood. Not that it can't be done, but it's something that most people won't do lightly.
It's not a "well, the demon isn't using it anymore..." situation; it's too intimate for that.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:Few people ever seem to think anything wrong with picking up that defeated Dire Wolf's Rune Weapon/Gold Pieces/Spell Scroll....so what's the big deal with "picking up" his doubled PPE (as long as it wasn't premeditated murder...)???

Because you're absorbing the demon's life-force, merging it with your own, then using it to work magic.
A bit more intimate than just picking up a fallen weapon.

PPE isn't "life force."

It's just P.P.E.

You can drain a creature of its life force and thereby kill it.

You can't kill, or even harm, somebody whose P.P.E. you're draining.

Two separate things.

cornholioprime wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:Few people ever seem to think anything wrong with picking up that defeated Dire Wolf's Rune Weapon/Gold Pieces/Spell Scroll....so what's the big deal with "picking up" his doubled PPE (as long as it wasn't premeditated murder...)???

Because you're absorbing the demon's life-force, merging it with your own, then using it to work magic.
A bit more intimate than just picking up a fallen weapon.

PPE isn't "life force."

Addressed in the post after the one you quoted.

For those folks who don't see an alignement conflict, let's take a step back from Palladium and ask how we'd expect to see this concept (a sorceror harnessing the life energies of a demon as it dies) done in fiction.

Would you expect heroic characters in fantasy novels to do this, or just the baddies on Team Evil? What sort of attitude do you think heroic characters in a fantasy novel would have about this sort of thing? Do you think organised guilds/schools/orders of wizardry in fantasy would be okay with wizards who do this, or would they be likely to have rules against it? What would ordinary people, or the local prince, or the setting's major religions, have to say about the idea of a wizard fuelling his spells with energy syphoned from a dying demon?

Because I dunno about you guys, but I can't really see this sort of thing ever being portrayed as perfectly fine and something that good guys can do without having to feel guilty about it. It's the sort of thing you expect evil priests and wizards to do when they're summoning something particulalry bad, or something to use as a "kick the dog" moment to show that an anti-hero like Raistlin Majere has officially made a face-heel turn. ie, this is not something good characters do.

Oh and objectively evil or not, I pity the fool player who tries this regularly in a campaign with a GM who owns Through The Glass Darkly

Rallan wrote:Would you expect heroic characters in fantasy novels to do this, or just the baddies on Team Evil? What sort of attitude do you think heroic characters in a fantasy novel would have about this sort of thing? Do you think organised guilds/schools/orders of wizardry in fantasy would be okay with wizards who do this, or would they be likely to have rules against it? What would ordinary people, or the local prince, or the setting's major religions, have to say about the idea of a wizard fuelling his spells with energy syphoned from a dying demon?

This is something for the individual character, guild, prince, ordinary person to decide.
That works better that way rather than as a blanket rule, in my opinion.

lather wrote:

Rallan wrote:Would you expect heroic characters in fantasy novels to do this, or just the baddies on Team Evil? What sort of attitude do you think heroic characters in a fantasy novel would have about this sort of thing? Do you think organised guilds/schools/orders of wizardry in fantasy would be okay with wizards who do this, or would they be likely to have rules against it? What would ordinary people, or the local prince, or the setting's major religions, have to say about the idea of a wizard fuelling his spells with energy syphoned from a dying demon?

This is something for the individual character, guild, prince, ordinary person to decide.
That works better that way rather than as a blanket rule, in my opinion.

Except that in many of Palladium's settings, good and evil exist as real, objective things. And in pretty much all of them, the Alignment system (thanks to how limited and unrealistic it is) means you pretty much have to file everything into moral categories. A is good, B is bad. Good characters can do X without feeling guilty about it but not Y. Palladium RPGs, much like evangelical preachers, don't have much room for the idea of moral relativism

nameneeded wrote:Is it wrong to gather a dead guys blood for a spell component or ritual or trade?

Blood magic is typically considered evil.

I don't think so so why would PPE be any different? I can understand trying to take it from a living person. It is thier "possession" afterall. Just like thier blood, armor, gear etc etc its just a tool/ item whatever that people have. Being reduced to zero doesn't slow you down or kill you. (unless your group role plays it that way)

Robbing from the dead is also typically considered evil in most cultures.

Besides if PPE had a relation to "life force" or "soul energy" then by proxy since all ley lines are comprised of said energy taking from them would be an evil act as well.

That's kind of like saying that it's okay to drain a person's body of water for your tea, since it's okay to drink from a stream.

nameneeded wrote:Right and wrong are notions that societies create based on thier own morals, values, histories etc.

1. Prove it.
(The examples you list are simply differences in customs, not morals)
2. In any case, clearly NOT in Rifts.
That's why they have alignments.

Food for thought:


BtS, p. 94
On Blood Sacrifice:

Note: That this hideous act of evil can only be done by characters of an evil alignment; diabolic, aberrant or miscreant. Any good or selfish characters who willingly participate, in any way, with a blood sacrifice of a human being will have his or her alignment immediately changed to evil. Principled and Scrupulous characters will not even partake in the sacrifice of animals, but unprincipled and anarchist (selfish) alignments can.

p. 74
On PPE

Since a child has not yet focused his/her potential in any area his/her psi-energy is at full capacity.

p. 49

Potential psychic energy (PPE) is the x-factor in human development.

It is a natural, physical and mental essence that links and binds all life.

p. 130

The potential psychic energy is a sort of bonding energy that seems to permeate all living things and links them to the very planet or perhaps even the universe.

DiceMan wrote:Some fuel for thought:

I'm currently playing a Dwarven Priest of Light who follows Aco and the Juggernaut. In the description of Aco in Dragons and Gods it states that ritual blood sacrifice (including human/humanoid) is part of the Dogma of the Church of Aco and that all of Her priests are trained in performing quick and painless deaths.

So, I have a priest of light with a scrupulous alignment who is not only encouraged to offer blood sacrifice but is also trained in it.

Granted, the description states that the human/humanoid sacrifice is usually a willing participant/elderly worshipper on their last leg.

It's the "weasel word" usually that's the trip up.

As far as I know, Gods of light can have evil followers.

nameneeded wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

nameneeded wrote:Right and wrong are notions that societies create based on thier own morals, values, histories etc.

1. Prove it.
(The examples you list are simply differences in customs, not morals)
2. In any case, clearly NOT in Rifts.
That's why they have alignments.

Prove it?
Society is made up of laws and values. Voted/ decided on by the people or goverments and or religion. Those that break those laws are deemed bad(car theif). Some as evil(Dahlmer)

Lets look at Dahlmer. By our standards.; Law = no murder. Religion= Thou shal not kill. Average person= killing is bad. Possible exceptions self defense. I don't think you can put a nice good or neutral alinement on him. Dahlmer evil.

Now if you were an Asmat Dahlmer would not be a bad guy. Asmat= cannibals. Displayed bones and skulls of prey, partook in ritual sacrifice. You can google them. Now while the deffinitions we have for evil allpy to our views those Asmat's don't view themselves as evil. They prob viewed us as odd/ strange with strange ways.

People didn't see Dahlmer as being immoral because he was a cannibal as much as because he was a rapist and murderer.

Irquois Natives also took part in ritual torture and many believe at one time were cannibalistic. Good or bad guys?

Now by our western values cannibalism evil.

I disagree.
By our western view, cannibalism shows disrespect for the dead.
By other cultures' views it does not.
But every culture believes that it is immoral to show disrespect for the dead.

German SS. Considered Jews to be less than human. Do you consider them evil? Do you think they considered themselves evil? They went home to thier families and said "Honey I'm home from being and evil uncaring monster. whats for dinner?"

I consider them to be evil because I consider the Jews to be humans.
As you say, the Nazis did not.
So, in their perception, they did nothing wrong.
Murder is immoral, but they didn't believe that what they did constituted murder.

Slavery is considered evil yet it was the norm in both our countries at one time.

Like murder, the morality or immorality of the act depends on whether or not you are performing it on an equal.
Slavery became abolished in this nation not because we decided that slavery was immoral, but because we decided that blacks were our equals.

And I'm not even really getting into deeper religous views here.

Or how about witchcraft or wicca? Is that evil? At one time it was. Punishable by death.

Are you talking about witchcraft, or wicca specifically?
Wicca was never punishable by death; it was invented in the 1950s.
Satanic witchcraft is evil.
Traditional European witchcraft was only punishable by death because it was mistaken for Satanism.

By game standards torture is evil. Canabalism is evil. Thus those that do it on a regular daily basis are evil. But what if we were playing a game where the core books were based on a people like the Asmat or Nazis? Do you think Alinments would differ?

No, not really.

And where do the books say that Cannibalism is evil?

Either you have people who follow laws or don't. Either life has value and respect or it doesn't.

Don't forget alinements are a control device to keep a character defined and to provide a framework for the Good vs Evil theme that most games portray. It is players that blur the lines. Or even players taht prefer to play evil.

And I wasn't talking about blood sacrifices. I was talking as components. "eye of newt, frogs legs, wolfsbane, elven blood"

The overall context of the coversation is about blood sacrifice.

And if robbing from the dead is evil in some cultures then they have thier own alinments then as well that define our characters. (I presume you take more than 1 peice of gear from those that attack you right.)

Same alignments.
It's considered to be disrespectful to the dead, which is a universal taboo.

And the quotes you posted RE PPE still don't show the difference or linking of PPE any more than the bio electric energy all living things have. You can't have it both ways. If you can draw from a ley line with impunity then you can draw from the dead the same. Its now ambiant PPE energy just like a ley line.

Uh, no... it comes from the people/creatures themselves.
Like water.
Drinking from a stream is fine, drinking from a corpse is not.

I have not changed my mind on killing for PPE is evil either.

On a side note PSI Stalkers tend to be good guys (p154 RUE). They drain PPE from the living! And they need to harm said person as well.

So show me how this is evil in Rifts again? We have classes that are good that do it. We have nothing stating that doing it is bad/ evil.

Actually we do have passages, the ones that I've quoted, that state that blood sacrifice is an evil act.

I wonder,

Is the draining PPE 'Evil' because of the killing you have to do to get it? Or is it 'Evil' in and of itself.

The silly idea is a spellcaster in a place like a Hospice, the people are dying anyway, so the morality would be akin to disecting corpses. It's wrong to kill someone for their corpse, and considered desecration to dissect the corpse of your enemy........

But to dissect the corpse of a stranger who died utterly independent of your actions, that's Med school, or just an Autopsy!

Then the ethical question is simply "did the person consent to be used like this in life'?", which is an ethical question, but one could certainly imagine an Unprincipled MEdical student stealing corpses for his own use. If you had nothing to do with the death of the person, using any resources that may result is generally not consered a 'die hard Evil' act.

The less silly idea of using the PPE of those around you in combat. What's the morality of being at War, running out of supplies, and resorting to eating The Enemy? Is it Cannibalism or corpse desecration (Big difference! Med students NEVER get to eat their dead, only dissect them) However, when it's between cannibalism and death, well, No one filed a single charge against those Colombian soccer players.

When it's 'use the PPE or you die', I could see good alignments doing so (Even Cannibalsim is considered 'ok' in that case). If it's 'Use PPE for a higher purpose', tough call, because that *does* walk the fine line, you never get to Cannibalize for a 'higher purpose', but you do get to dissect corpses, provided you have consent (and it's not that Evil to do so without consent).If the purpose is high enough, then it's not Evil at all

For example, you think the person died of a horrific plague, an autopsy will tell you if yes and whether vaccines need to be airlifted into the city, but the family is Mormon and refuses to grant you the rights! Cuddy just keeps getting in your way, but THERE IS SO MUCH AT STAKE! You realize that the key is to throw the interns a decoy-case (Yes, the lady's blurred vision is due to the fact that she's allergic to her insoles, but those interns wont figure that out for *weeks*) so you can sneak off and do the autopsy while Wilson runs interference for you at the conference you're supposed to speak at.....

--Ok, maybe watching House in five hour marathon sessions wasn't the best plan.

DocS wrote:I wonder,

Is the draining PPE 'Evil' because of the killing you have to do to get it? Or is it 'Evil' in and of itself?

That seems to be the essential question.
Personally, I can see an argument either way, but I currently lean towards it being an act that is inherently evil.

--Ok, maybe watching House in five hour marathon sessions wasn't the best plan.

No, that's always a good idea!

Killer Cyborg wrote:

DocS wrote:
--Ok, maybe watching House in five hour marathon sessions wasn't the best plan.

No, that's always a good idea!

Don't know what you look like, how old you are, or even have a solid idea of what gender you are (though I've theories), but ...

I knew you'd like House.

DocS wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

DocS wrote:
--Ok, maybe watching House in five hour marathon sessions wasn't the best plan.

No, that's always a good idea!

Don't know what you look like, how old you are, or even have a solid idea of what gender you are (though I've theories), but damnit...

I knew you'd like House.

1. Lousy picture, but I'm the guy that isn't Kevin Siembieda:
http://www.palladiumbooks.com/press/POH/DSCF2973.jpg

2. 32.

3. Male.

4.
Of course I like House!
Although I've been a fan of Hugh Laurie since Blackadder.

Well, due to Hades, remember, that you dont get squat from a Demon or any other supernatural creature unless you kill it on its home world. So unless you are killing demons in Hades, you dont get anything because their bodies disappear. So no demon bone, no doubled PPE. Nothing.

DiceMan wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

DiceMan wrote:Some fuel for thought:

I'm currently playing a Dwarven Priest of Light who follows Aco and the Juggernaut. In the description of Aco in Dragons and Gods it states that ritual blood sacrifice (including human/humanoid) is part of the Dogma of the Church of Aco and that all of Her priests are trained in performing quick and painless deaths.

So, I have a priest of light with a scrupulous alignment who is not only encouraged to offer blood sacrifice but is also trained in it.

Granted, the description states that the human/humanoid sacrifice is usually a willing participant/elderly worshipper on their last leg.

It's the "weasel word" usually that's the trip up.

As far as I know, Gods of light can have evil followers.

Absolutely, both Aco and the Juggernaut are Selfish alignments. However, the description does not read "evil priests" or "priests of darkness", it simply says "all priests of Aco" are trained in blood sacrifice.

All of them are trained for it, but not all of them perform it on unwilling victims. Only the evil ones do that.

Since PPE exists not only in individual living beings but also within planets and even in space, there's no special quality to its being in a human(oid) body whatsoever; it's just another "element" that makes up the body like iron and carbon and hydrogen.

It's not the psionic essence of the person; it's not even that person's protoplasmic being or astral self.
It's not that person's life force.
It's not even as "important" as that person's lifeblood.
And in terms of palladium energy sources, PPE is no more "special" or "taboo" an energy form than static electricity.

Most folks who rub their feet on a carpet on a cold day will gather to them a static charge, and just about every living thing in the Palladium Megaverse will gather to their bodies a PPE "charge."

As long as one didn't go out of his or her way to kill the target creature just for the purpose, harvesting the P.P.E. of said recently slain individual is no more "evil" than, say, recycling that person's bodily wastes and recycling them into fertilizer....or food.**


**Don't laugh out loud just yet, boys and girls!! In Japan a few years back, they actually succeeded in converting human waste back into edible foodstuffs (our digestive systems are pretty inefficient, after all), and got some volunteers to actually try the stuff out .

"Soylent BROWN," anyone??

Killer Cyborg wrote:1. Lousy picture, but I'm the guy that isn't Kevin Siembieda:
http://www.palladiumbooks.com/press/POH/DSCF2973.jpg

And I'm the guy, front row, second from the right.

Wearing the grey shirt.

http://www4.utsouthwestern.edu/gaolab/index.html

So we mutually know who we're yelling and screaming at

cornholioprime wrote:Since PPE exists not only in individual living beings but also within planets and even in space, there's no special quality to its being in a human(oid) body whatsoever; it's just another "element" that makes up the body like iron and carbon and hydrogen.

It's not the psionic essence of the person; it's not even that person's protoplasmic being or astral self.
It's not that person's life force.
It's not even as "important" as that person's lifeblood.
And in terms of palladium energy sources, PPE is no more "special" or "taboo" an energy form than static electricity.

It's Chi.
If you don't think there's anything special about it being in people, tell that to the Chinese.

DocS wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:1. Lousy picture, but I'm the guy that isn't Kevin Siembieda:
http://www.palladiumbooks.com/press/POH/DSCF2973.jpg

And I'm the guy, front row, second from the right.

Wearing the grey shirt.

http://www4.utsouthwestern.edu/gaolab/index.html

So we mutually know who we're yelling and screaming at

Killer Cyborg wrote:
It's Chi.
If you don't think there's anything special about it being in people, tell that to the Chinese.

Whoo! Be careful with that statement. I once said that their should be no real difference between Chi and PPE since they are almost identically described in the Palladium rules, and thus in Rift it made sense that martial arts used PPE. I had about 50 people tell me what a stupid idea it was.

JTwig wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:
It's Chi.
If you don't think there's anything special about it being in people, tell that to the Chinese.

Whoo! Be careful with that statement. I once said that their should be no real difference between Chi and PPE since they are almost identically described in the Palladium rules, and thus in Rift it made sense that martial arts used PPE. I had about 50 people tell me what a stupid idea it was.

It's a mess.
Palladium describes PPE as Chi, but then uses PPE, ISP, and Chi for martial arts in various settings.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:Since PPE exists not only in individual living beings but also within planets and even in space, there's no special quality to its being in a human(oid) body whatsoever; it's just another "element" that makes up the body like iron and carbon and hydrogen.

It's not the psionic essence of the person; it's not even that person's protoplasmic being or astral self.
It's not that person's life force.
It's not even as "important" as that person's lifeblood.
And in terms of palladium energy sources, PPE is no more "special" or "taboo" an energy form than static electricity.

It's Chi.
If you don't think there's anything special about it being in people, tell that to the Chinese.

What some peoples of the world THINK is important and what actually IS, are two separate things.

Perhaps Chinese in the Palladium Game World think that Chi is life-critical, and perhaps that is indeed the case, but even if true, that isn't the case in the wider Palladium world.

As it stands in most if not all of the Palladium Megaverse, a person suffers NO negative effects whatsoever if depleted to zero PPE.

And as such, PPE is no more "critical" or "taboo" o "evil" to remove from a dead person than hair or toe clippings.

So what if the Chinese think chi to be semi-sacred?? AFICR, Rastafarians consider ALL of their body parts to be semi-sacred and to be buried with them, yet none of us here would bat a moral eyelash if some intrepid adventurer took some hair/fur and claws from a demon for use in whatever it is that Alchemists and/or Necromancers do with that stuff.

Until such time as I see "hard" evidence that PPE has the same physiologcal/moral weight as blood or organs or body parts, I'll choose to lump in death-given PPE with those aforementioned toenails and hair.

P.S.: I'll bet that nobody here sees anything wrong with taking home the scales and claws and (in some rare cases) blood of dragons defeated in battle, which the dragon in question DOES have to have in order to live.

Why the big rush to suddenly declare PPE morally off limits when just about every scrupulous, battle-seasoned character, NPC or otherwise, of moderate to high level has SOMETHING made from supernatural bad guy parts of this or that or the other??

cornholioprime wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:Since PPE exists not only in individual living beings but also within planets and even in space, there's no special quality to its being in a human(oid) body whatsoever; it's just another "element" that makes up the body like iron and carbon and hydrogen.

It's not the psionic essence of the person; it's not even that person's protoplasmic being or astral self.
It's not that person's life force.
It's not even as "important" as that person's lifeblood.
And in terms of palladium energy sources, PPE is no more "special" or "taboo" an energy form than static electricity.

It's Chi.
If you don't think there's anything special about it being in people, tell that to the Chinese.

What some peoples of the world THINK is important and what actually IS, are two separate things.

Perhaps Chinese in the Palladium Game World think that Chi is life-critical, and perhaps that is indeed the case, but even if true, that isn't the case in the wider Palladium world.

It's pretty clear that it's more important than static electricity.

As it stands in most if not all of the Palladium Megaverse, a person suffers NO negative effects whatsoever if depleted to zero PPE.

And as such, PPE is no more "critical" or "taboo" o "evil" to remove from a dead person than hair or toe clippings.

That's one hell of a stretch of logic there.

So what if the Chinese think chi to be semi-sacred??

So it's more important than static electricity.
You should pay more attention to what your claims are, especially if you're going to get huffy when people point out how they're false.

AFICR, Rastafarians consider ALL of their body parts to be semi-sacred and to be buried with them, yet none of us here would bat a moral eyelash if some intrepid adventurer took some hair/fur and claws from a demon for use in whatever it is that Alchemists and/or Necromancers do with that stuff.

Who says nobody would bat a moral eye at that?

Until such time as I see "hard" evidence that PPE has the same physiologcal/moral weight as blood or organs or body parts, I'll choose to lump in death-given PPE with those aforementioned toenails and hair.

How about the fact that the books state that blood sacrifice is an evil act...?

P.S.: I'll bet that nobody here sees anything wrong with taking home the scales and claws and (in some rare cases) blood of dragons defeated in battle, which the dragon in question DOES have to have in order to live.

You'll lose the bet.

Why the big rush to suddenly declare PPE morally off limits when just about every scrupulous, battle-seasoned character, NPC or otherwise, of moderate to high level has SOMETHING made from supernatural bad guy parts of this or that or the other??

Care to list these people you're talking about?

Killer Cyborg wrote:Why the big rush to suddenly declare PPE morally off limits when just about every scrupulous, battle-seasoned character, NPC or otherwise, of moderate to high level has SOMETHING made from supernatural bad guy parts of this or that or the other??

Care to list these people you're talking about?[/quote]Not by name; but TONS and TONS and TONS of these Scrupulous and Principled NPCs throughout the entire Rifts™ and PFRPG series who are possessed of Dragon's Claws, Dragon Scale Armors, Melee Weapons made from the bones of Supernatural Creatures, etc., etc., etc.