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For quite a while now I've been unsatisfied with the "Auto Dodge" rule. I believe it should be a learned/trained ability. I've been thinking about giving characters Auto Dodge at a particular level through their Hand to Hand. That level would vary depending on the type of Hand to Hand a character has. Hand to Hand: Commando (and possibly Martial Arts) maybe at 2nd level, Hand to Hand: Expert (and Assassin) possibly at level 4 and Basic at about level 6 or so.

The reason for my thinking is that there are so many forms of Hand to Hand or Close Quarter Combat that provides training in what I would consider an Auto Dodge. I'm sure a lot of you out there that have trained in the Martial Arts and those of you in the military that can agree that you've been trained to not only avoid or get out of the way of an opponent's attack, but at the same time in doing so, set yourself up in the position to return the attack. A character can do the same thing in a game without the lose of an attack/action.

I've, personally, used this quite a bit in both just screwing around with friends and when forced to defend myself. It works and is actually easy to do without much training.

What are your opinions about this?

Misfit KotLD wrote:There's only so much approximation to real life that a RPG can give and this change would bog down combat even further than it already is.

I don't have a problem with combat bogging down a game, but I think that's because of my House Rules, but strickly using Palladium Rules you're right. It could bog things down worse.

Makes sense.

I would say limit it to one attack auto-dodge not full auto-dodge. Though I think it should be at least about 5th level like hth com. THough add option is at the higher levels make them take a skill to enable it. Represent the added time to train. Also maybe you should look into ninja and superspies it has alot of things like parry/attack, multi-dodge.

Mouser13 wrote:I would say limit it to one attack auto-dodge not full auto-dodge. Though I think it should be at least about 5th level like hth com. THough add option is at the higher levels make them take a skill to enable it. Repersent the added time to train. Also maybe you should look into ninja and superspies it has alot of things like parry/attack, multi-dodge.

Limiting it to only being used once makes sense. That's cool.

Alejandro wrote:I'm the reverse. I think Auto-Dodge should be extremely limited to only a few specific OCC's/RCC's and should never be available as just training or as just a high PP score.

I don't believe that a Green Berret should be able dodge something just from sheer training just as I don't believe an Olympic gymnast should be able to from just being extremely agile. Both can dodge very well, I'm sure...but not in the same manner as auto-dodge implies.

I always felt that the Juicers should have remained relatively unique in their possession of auto-dodge because it helps to give reason to the whole notion of a 5 yr lifespan. It's not just training they go through, it's also a whole boatload of drugs in their system that drastically alters the way their body functions...that's what gives them the auto-dodge abilities. It should remain something that takes superhuman abilities to achieve. Now whether that's acquired through tech or magic isn't my call...but I don't feel any human should be able to attain it on their own.

True, but what about Mouser13's idea about only getting one Auto Dodge per melee? That would still give the Juicers the upper hand since they can Auto Dodge all attacks.

Alejandro wrote:I'm the reverse. I think Auto-Dodge should be extremely limited to only a few specific OCC's/RCC's and should never be available as just training or as just a high PP score.

I don't believe that a Green Berret should be able dodge something just from sheer training just as I don't believe an Olympic gymnast should be able to from just being extremely agile. Both can dodge very well, I'm sure...but not in the same manner as auto-dodge implies.

I always felt that the Juicers should have remained relatively unique in their possession of auto-dodge because it helps to give reason to the whole notion of a 5 yr lifespan. It's not just training they go through, it's also a whole boatload of drugs in their system that drastically alters the way their body functions...that's what gives them the auto-dodge abilities. It should remain something that takes superhuman abilities to achieve. Now whether that's acquired through tech or magic isn't my call...but I don't feel any human should be able to attain it on their own.

They still are unique. Their auto-dodge applies to even attacks from behind and junk... but yeah I know what you're saying.

Alejandro wrote:

GreenGhost wrote:

Alejandro wrote:I'm the reverse. I think Auto-Dodge should be extremely limited to only a few specific OCC's/RCC's and should never be available as just training or as just a high PP score.

I don't believe that a Green Berret should be able dodge something just from sheer training just as I don't believe an Olympic gymnast should be able to from just being extremely agile. Both can dodge very well, I'm sure...but not in the same manner as auto-dodge implies.

I always felt that the Juicers should have remained relatively unique in their possession of auto-dodge because it helps to give reason to the whole notion of a 5 yr lifespan. It's not just training they go through, it's also a whole boatload of drugs in their system that drastically alters the way their body functions...that's what gives them the auto-dodge abilities. It should remain something that takes superhuman abilities to achieve. Now whether that's acquired through tech or magic isn't my call...but I don't feel any human should be able to attain it on their own.

True, but what about Mouser13's idea about only getting one Auto Dodge per melee? That would still give the Juicers the upper hand since they can Auto Dodge all attacks.

I didn't see Mouser's, I was finishing up my post when he submitted his so I didn't get a chance to see it.

Regarding the one auto-dodge, I could see that being acceptable...kind of an all-or-nothing move, but I'd limit that option to those who have extensive training like you were thinking earlier. I've always felt that raw talent can never overcome experience on its own, so even if someone had super-munchkin PP stats, I'd still say only the trained fighter gets the 1 auto-dodge.

True- only those trained fighters would be eligible for the single Auto Dodge.

GreenGhost wrote:For quite a while now I've been unsatisfied with the "Auto Dodge" rule. I believe it should be a learned/trained ability. I've been thinking about giving characters Auto Dodge at a particular level through their Hand to Hand. That level would vary depending on the type of Hand to Hand a character has. Hand to Hand: Commando (and possibly Martial Arts) maybe at 2nd level, Hand to Hand: Expert (and Assassin) possibly at level 4 and Basic at about level 6 or so.

The reason for my thinking is that there are so many forms of Hand to Hand or Close Quarter Combat that provides training in what I would consider an Auto Dodge. I'm sure a lot of you out there that have trained in the Martial Arts and those of you in the military that can agree that you've been trained to not only avoid or get out of the way of an opponent's attack, but at the same time in doing so, set yourself up in the position to return the attack. A character can do the same thing in a game without the lose of an attack/action.

And that's why there's a number of Martial Art Forms that DO give Autododge.

Look at Ninja's and Superspys: it has the kind of combat your talking about.

The stuff you see in the main book in Rifts is closer to to the 6 month self defence courses.

SkyeFyre wrote:

Alejandro wrote:I'm the reverse. I think Auto-Dodge should be extremely limited to only a few specific OCC's/RCC's and should never be available as just training or as just a high PP score.

I don't believe that a Green Berret should be able dodge something just from sheer training just as I don't believe an Olympic gymnast should be able to from just being extremely agile. Both can dodge very well, I'm sure...but not in the same manner as auto-dodge implies.

I always felt that the Juicers should have remained relatively unique in their possession of auto-dodge because it helps to give reason to the whole notion of a 5 yr lifespan. It's not just training they go through, it's also a whole boatload of drugs in their system that drastically alters the way their body functions...that's what gives them the auto-dodge abilities. It should remain something that takes superhuman abilities to achieve. Now whether that's acquired through tech or magic isn't my call...but I don't feel any human should be able to attain it on their own.

They still are unique. Their auto-dodge applies to even attacks from behind and junk... but yeah I know what you're saying.

Juicers have other abilities, not only the Auto Dodge, that they have in their favor. I don't think a "once per melee" Auto Dodge won't really affect the Juicer's abilities any.

if i rememeber right the commando gets auto dodge at level 7

goodhometownboy wrote:if i rememeber right the commando gets auto dodge at level 7

level 5

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

goodhometownboy wrote:if i rememeber right the commando gets auto dodge at level 7

level 5

thank you

goodhometownboy wrote:if i rememeber right the commando gets auto dodge at level 7

I think you're right.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

goodhometownboy wrote:if i rememeber right the commando gets auto dodge at level 7

level 5

I didn't know about the level, but was sure that Hand to Hand: Commando had an Auto Dodge at some point.

GreenGhost wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

goodhometownboy wrote:if i rememeber right the commando gets auto dodge at level 7

level 5

I didn't know about the level, but was sure that Hand to Hand: Commando had an Auto Dodge at some point.

Well, this is from another post. Hth commando give +2 to auto Dodge it never says it grants the ability. Just kidding it gives it though I believe.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

GreenGhost wrote:For quite a while now I've been unsatisfied with the "Auto Dodge" rule. I believe it should be a learned/trained ability. I've been thinking about giving characters Auto Dodge at a particular level through their Hand to Hand. That level would vary depending on the type of Hand to Hand a character has. Hand to Hand: Commando (and possibly Martial Arts) maybe at 2nd level, Hand to Hand: Expert (and Assassin) possibly at level 4 and Basic at about level 6 or so.

The reason for my thinking is that there are so many forms of Hand to Hand or Close Quarter Combat that provides training in what I would consider an Auto Dodge. I'm sure a lot of you out there that have trained in the Martial Arts and those of you in the military that can agree that you've been trained to not only avoid or get out of the way of an opponent's attack, but at the same time in doing so, set yourself up in the position to return the attack. A character can do the same thing in a game without the lose of an attack/action.

And that's why there's a number of Martial Art Forms that DO give Autododge.

Look at Ninja's and Superspys: it has the kind of combat your talking about.

The stuff you see in the main book in Rifts is closer to to the 6 month self defence courses.

Of course, the Auto-Dodge provided in N&S is different from the Auto-Dodge in Rifts.

Mouser13 wrote:

GreenGhost wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

goodhometownboy wrote:if i rememeber right the commando gets auto dodge at level 7

level 5

I didn't know about the level, but was sure that Hand to Hand: Commando had an Auto Dodge at some point.

Well, this is from another post. Hth commando give +2 to auto Dodge it never says it grants the ability. Just kidding it gives it though I believe.

You're going to make my ears bleed

mAd eAgle wrote:I personally feel Auto-dodge should fall under the MA attribute in a combination with Perception. Being aware of the environment is far more important than being fast. From personal experience I can testify that being juiced gives a more area awareness than any amount of natural reflex.

The core principle of martial arts is about environmental awareness. Action through inaction. Being able to intuitively judge the precise moment to act. Using Chi as a conduit within, which one may flow with. The combination of both Mental Affinity and Perception imo is how it works in the world today.

Simply: if one is not aware one is ignorant, and if one is ignorant how does one perceive? So being able to dodge on reflex alone is a fallacy. Being in tune with the flow of chi is the key.

Just my thoughts on the subject. Take it as you will.

I came up with a Perception Attribute for Palladium in '88. Once the Perception Rules came out I looked it over, but decided to stay with mine. The Perception gives you a possible bonus to Initiative and it give you a "Area Awareness" ability (a percentage based ability that represents periphrial vision). I like your idea about the Auto Dodge and Perception though

WonderingMind wrote:

GreenGhost wrote:True, but what about Mouser13's idea about only getting one Auto Dodge per melee? That would still give the Juicers the upper hand since they can Auto Dodge all attacks.

That leads up to a question that in our goofiest moments can go either way…. And here is the set up: A Juicer can try to auto-dodge ANY attack. Okay, what if the Juicer is falling off of a 100 story building? Can he auto-dodge the ground?

When I was GMing I ruled that the ground was effectively an area effect weapon and could not be dodged. However, it is funny to think about though.

WM

Falling at the ground isn't an attack.

WonderingMind wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Falling at the ground isn't an attack.

I agree with you KC, however, the other side of the argument is that anything that dose damage is an attack.

WM

Then the other side of the argument is wrong.