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nameneeded wrote:K so here we in a CS base that has an AI operating its mainframe. The base has weapons (turrets) that are controled by the AI.

Can a MM with TMO take over a turret?

As long as the AI isn't Sentient, then yes

Really, the LAST problem the CS has is manpower... they have tons of people, and anytime they run low, they can bump some people up the citizenship list. On the other hand, they could pretty easily install a skelebot-level AI in the turrets, which can be over-ridden by human controllers.

The GM is right. That's a general principle.

However, in this case, I would see him as still right. While the psi-stalker gave orders to the AI (bring up this plasma cannon!), the AI was still controlling it.

The question is not "can the AI function without the device in question" but "can the device in question function without the AI"? You bring up a C-27. That is, IMO, a bad example. In the case of the C-27, cut its power leads and put in an E-clip, and it's an independent system. A skelebot doesn't use it any differently than a normal person, just powering it off his own nuke pack. Thus, you could TMO a C-27 connected to a skelebot, because it doesn't need the skelebot to operate.

In the case of this plasma cannon (or, say, the integral weapons systems of a new-type inhuman skelebot), the weapon cannot function without the AI... the AI takes orders to use it, but if you disconnect it from the AI, it's a big hunk of metal until you do significant work to provide a trigger system, targeting, power supply, etc. Thus, you can't TMO this thing, because it's system is the AI, not because the AI "needs" it.

I believe the ultimate edition says that only sentient AIs cant be controlled. the AI of which you speak is but a cluster of programs, if it must be told to shoot it can nopt think on its own

nameneeded wrote:Nekira made the same comment. So where does it describe the difference? (I asked that in a rant I had.) What is the difference?

Technically my computer can be seen as an AI. It uses its knowledge to complete tasks. A skelbot is immune yet it can't hold a conversation. From the little I got from the books the CS is terrified of true self thinking machines like Archie.

Anyone?
Just some clarification so we can avoid a debate about the limits of TMO during the game.

Lets put it this way...

A dog can learn things, new tricks, how to do things, without being taught. but it's not sentiant. a dog is effectivly running on a biological, nonsentiant AI.

I don't know the AI in question, but your computer cannot be considered an AI. It cannot run programs on its own. It can have a program written, that tells it to run a program at a certain time, but it cannot make an independent evaluation as to whether a program is needed to be run... it won't decide to defrag it's own hard drive because it's not being used and it's getting really fragmented, unless you've set up something to do that.

An AI can make decisions on its own. It may take orders, but it can also come to independent conclusions. Your dog may take commands, but he'll also do things on his own without being told to... you can "program" him not to poop on the carpet, but he will still take actions on his own.... if you set him loose in the backyard, he'll poop on his own, chase squirrels without being told, and protect the area.

So, this computer in the complex might or might not be an AI. Just because it takes orders from the Coalition doesn't prevent it from being an AI.

And without knowing the parameters your DM defined for the AI, we don't know if it was an AI or just a "smart computer".

If you have it handy, pull out your Sourcebook 1 for Rifts; either will do, but the Revised version has what we're looking for on page 13 (it's farther back in the original). The define 5 levels of intelligence for Robots.

Level 1s require a human operator. Level 2s can operate independently, but can't make real decision on their own; they operate within strict parameters. Level 3s are the true AIs... machine brains capable of acting completely independently if necessary. Level 4s are machine brains which emulate living brains. Level 5s are living minds in machine workings (not cyborgs, but a mind inside a computer).

Generally, a level 2 or lower can be affected by TMO... it is programmed, cannot learn, and cannot vary from the program. A level 3 or above cannot. Level 2s will have IQs between 8 and 11; 3s will have IQs between 11 and 16.

So, how smart was it? Could it learn and adapt, or was it completely limited by programming? That would be the rules set forth by the game as to what constitutes a "true" AI.

nameneeded wrote:K so here we in a CS base that has an AI operating its mainframe. The base has weapons (turrets) that are controled by the AI.

Can a MM with TMO take over a turret?

If the control line to the mainfram are cut, yes. If not then no, it put the Mind Mage in contact with the mainfram's AI, becasue as long as the control lines are intact the turet is a part of the AI.

However, (optional at GM descresstion) you could use the battle of wills rules to have the mind mage and the AI fight over control of the turret.

Malignor wrote:Skelebots are a type 3 AI, if I recall.

1 = Computers
2 = Robots & PA
3 = Skelebots & NGR robots
4 = ARCHIE
5 = Something from an 80's comedy (existing mind gets "uploaded" to machine)

(this may be incorrect)

From a Palladium standpoint, it is. Palladium doesn't define levels of AI, so much as levels of Robot AI.

1= Human Operator
2= Non-learning independent machine
3= Learning-capable independent machine
4= Learning-capable independent machine, whose system emulates living systems (a neural intelligence)
5= Mind gets uploaded to machine.