when is to much?

[Noon]

Try introducing dinged up, battle worn heavy weaponry - it can only fire X number of shots per day safely, or has a percentage chance each shot of locking up until hours of maintenance are made.

Also make low damage MDC weapons available - that way they wont just use the most heavy weapon they have. It'll be a difficult choice.

Same can go for forcefield armour - it'll work for X amount of minutes per day. When to switch it on - who knows? So the PC's stay in low MDC armour until they think they really need the high MDC shields in place.

[NovenTheHero]

Or just scale back your game to a lower-power setting. Tell them that they can only pick gear from certain books, or just tell them that only the main RIFTS book is allowed. NOTE: This is only a solution when playing RIFTS...since Phase World's nature is pretty higher on the Mega-Damage scale.

[Dustin Fireblade]

I am just curious about the availibilty of MDC weapons and armor to the PC's. I feel that with to much the players get wildly out of control an it's pretty hard to get much domne with out a few MDC weapons.

In Rifts North America, it will depend on your timeline. In 109 PA, they are more common, 100 PA not so much. Even in 109 PA, they are still uncommon though, check out pages 356 - 357 in RUE.

Also, page 36 on revised SB1 (or page 55 of the oroginal SB1) lists the places that can repair MD robots and body armor. A basic rule of thumb that I have always used is that these are the only places that sell MD weapons and armor as well. Anything MD found outside of that is used/salvaged and I do the same thing Noon does.

[Killer Cyborg]

I am just curious about the availibilty of MDC weapons and armor to the PC's. I feel that with to much the players get wildly out of control an it's pretty hard to get much domne with out a few MDC weapons.

It all depends on the campaign you're running.
You can rune purely SDC adventures, or purely MDC adventures.
Or anywhere in between.

[Mouser13]

You could always hit the reset button. I had a GM hit our entire group with a 50MD blast of fire from a dragon statue at the beginning of a dungeon crawl. All of the characters survived but the blast did 50 MD to everything we were carrying too. So there went all those fancy rifles and doodads the group had collected.

THough under the rules area effect doesn't damage your equipment. So your DM was just wanted to remove the weapons. Which is the worst thing I think a DM can do. Break the rules just to hurt the characters.

Also their are rules saying you can just change M.D.C. to S.D.C. and play a all s.d.c. campaign.

[Noon]

You realise that once you start stripping players at will, your fully in control?

You may as well just stay at home and write a short story, then e-mail it around your friends.

The real problem is that with enough gear, the players may as well have stayed at home and written a short story, then e-mailed it to the person that normally GM's them.

Too much control on either side and it's just fan fiction time.

[Noon]

Stripping players of equipment at will doesn't automatically give the GM complete control. He still doesn't know what the players will do - how well they will work together, now ingenius and inventive they will be, what potentially unexpected solutions they will come up with to the problems presented to them, etc.

Even without a reset, he wouldn't know what the players are going to do. A reset doesn't add that uncertainty.

But the GM does know that whatever they would have done with the gear, once he hits the reset button, they wont be doing that at all.

The reset has just reduced uncertainty. Perhaps all of it, depending on how important gear is. Fan fiction time.

[Noon]

Two options -
A. What a player might do without using gear
B. What a player might do by using gear

He might do either. Reset gear and you've just halved the possiblities.

It's not some group thing, its just a plain fact. When B's gone, half the options are gone.

Disillusioned is how I come across. As in I can see through illusionist play pretty consistantly now.

As for making the players more creative, if the players kept the gear the GM would have to be more creative in order for the players to get more creative. To use your own words, the reset button becomes a crutch.

Gear or reset button are the same - too much on either side equals a lazy player or lazy GM, either of which are writing fan fiction.

Edit; Important Note: When I say "You realise that once you start stripping players at will, your fully in control?" I really mean, do you realise.

I'm not bring it up to convert or condemn how someones played. It's for someone who might not have thought this to be happening and would prefer to change.

I've only discussed it here as a test of the idea. If your only conversing with me because you don't want me to think differently from you and disagree about the qualities of your game play, I'm not interested in that sort of conversation and I'll pass, thanks.

[Noon]

Your right, I'm not interested in debate. I'm interested in the technique actually being given a trial in play rather than dry rhetoric. I think actual play is more meaningful than any debate. I had thought we were discussing it towards giving it that trial.

In terms of it potentially being given an actual play trial

Human nature is pretty cut and dried. When someone can blast something rather than thinking their way out, they will blast it. In fact, the will generally only acquire the means to do that if they are inclined to do so in the first place.

Yes, in play this would mean the NPC's have to get smarter. That'd be part of the idea.

However, if the NPC's always have to be smarter, then there's some sort issue. And if the PC's always have to be smarter, then there's some sort of issue. The idea is that that npc(GM) and PC's keep pushing each other to further creativity, rather than one side always being creative.

Not only that, but you actually suggested the very same thing

I think this is seen better in actual play - when players have a limited number of shots from their big gun per day, they have to get creative when it comes to using them. And when bad guys have to potentially face a big shot to the face, they have to get creative too. But actual play will show it better.

And furthremore, the mere (and inescapable) fact that the GM plays off of the players actions, and vice versa, means that all role playing is interactive story telling, which is very far removed from the "fan fiction" you claim, where only 1 person decides the actions of all.

I've seen plenty of game accounts where players describe their characters pose or hair do, or spend a combat killing a meaningless grunt. The GM even plays off that, some women loves his hair do or his pose intimdates the crowd. Then some big plot event occurs that wasn't affected in the least by those events.

An actual play test might be to write down what a big event will be before play. Then play and compare how the big event turns out, see if it actually changed at all due to player actions.

[devillin]

As I had already pointed out, that is absolutely not true at all. In fact, equipment becomes a crutch, and reduces what he players will do, because it reduces what they have to do. When they suddenly find themselves without their items to lean on, they have to get creative to get the job done.

I've found this to be particularly true for my players. I never realized just how much their equipment was a crutch for them until the last couple of adventures. While some of the other co-GMs have been a bit heavy-handed about us not bringing all of our stuff (spacial leyline storm, other shuttle getting blown up, etc), I've been subtle about it by engineering social adventures. ie. The party is at a staff meeting, or a new hire session, or an awards party, or something else innoculous when stuff happens. It's not like I didn't warn them months ago when I told everyone not to stock up only on combat skills, add in some non-combat and domestic skills, since they will and have come up.

Now I'm looking at these guys who are normally brave and full of ideas when they have their uber-power armors, rocket launchers, laser cannons, phase beamers, and magical swords act like little chickenshits when they are reduced to only a Cyclone and a laser rifle. I actually had them sit out a combat situation they should have engaged, if nothing else as a distraction. And when I say sit out, I mean they stood at the far end of the engineering corridor and watched the fight. Not try to sneak around, or do a delaying action of sort, or just do headshots from range, they just sat there and waited for the NPCs to finish the fight. I was so blown, I had to dock them for their cowardice; the extra two minutes of stray shots and missile blasts hit something vital, I made it their FTL drive. The only thing that went their way was that their CO was too busy with other stuff to look at the security footage of the fight and see them chicken out.

Then of course there are the social events where they lacked even the most basic of skills for their character, like military ettiquette or even streetwise, since the players had decided that they were not necessary. And the thing that really killed me was the one player was claiming that due to his background, his character had all these splugorth and FWC contacts, then I gave him a situation where those contacts might come in handy, and it turns out that he never took streetwise.

At this point I'm done showing mercy to them. Every adventure will be principally non-combat oriented, and if I can do it without being heavy handed, I'm taking their stuff away from them. They are slowly starting to realize that there is a lot of stuff they messed up on or overlooked because they were worrying about the next fight instead of looking at the more immediate, "non-essential" stuff.

[Mouser13]

You could always hit the reset button. I had a GM hit our entire group with a 50MD blast of fire from a dragon statue at the beginning of a dungeon crawl. All of the characters survived but the blast did 50 MD to everything we were carrying too. So there went all those fancy rifles and doodads the group had collected.

THough under the rules area effect doesn't damage your equipment. So your DM was just wanted to remove the weapons. Which is the worst thing I think a DM can do. Break the rules just to hurt the characters.

Also their are rules saying you can just change M.D.C. to S.D.C. and play a all s.d.c. campaign.

Actually... the rules DON'T say that equipment is automatically safe. Rather it seems assumed that players would realize that anything within the blast would suffer the damaging effects of the blast - including equipment.

And sometimes a GM has to strip players to provide the story experience he's looking for. Otherwise it can become boring for all involved.

Then he should come up with a good story to make the story exp. Not just say your weapons are broken. Matter of fact only like 10 weapons list their M.D.C. value. Now if he has always had done the damage to weapons no problem here, but if just added it into the game to hurt the characters that is bad.

Rules it does say only Mainbody are from area effect weapons (Missile anyway). Though not for sure if the rue updated it. THeir was a little bit of on thread couple months about testing it.



THough little more on topic. With to much gear only time their is do much gear I find is when you make it to easy to get it. And if you as a GM can't handle the gear you give them. Like 12 years ago when I first start GMing I allow my friend at time to play whatever characters he wanted to. And they where overpowered compared to what I knew at the time. SO I couldn't make a good fight vs them. So they got alot of money fast so they could get almost anything they want.

So if you having problems with characters doing something/ abusing their powers/weapons make someone to stop them or get them in line/ Destroy their items if you have to prefer in a good way, by not break/abusing the rules. Or even better if you can find a way to make the equipment their weakness.

Example from D&D. I crazy GM give a player a rod of lightning bolts with 50 charges and could active all the charges at once. So my turn GMing the player group was having trouble with a beholder and character wanted to kill the thing. He got himself into a position to do and let all of them good killing himself by the reflective damage. Following the rules item saving throws I went down the list and lucky me the rod and alot of this other gear was broken.

RIFTS I always like the Mainbook creature table make a energy weakness mob with sorc traits. So he could cast impervious to energy on him self and be immunity to energy and phsyical to kill characters I was mad at.

[devillin]

Actually... the rules DON'T say that equipment is automatically safe. Rather it seems assumed that players would realize that anything within the blast would suffer the damaging effects of the blast - including equipment.

Then he should come up with a good story to make the story exp. Not just say your weapons are broken. Matter of fact only like 10 weapons list their M.D.C. value. Now if he has always had done the damage to weapons no problem here, but if just added it into the game to hurt the characters that is bad.

Rules it does say only Mainbody are from area effect weapons (Missile anyway). Though not for sure if the rue updated it. THeir was a little bit of on thread couple months about testing it.

Actually, I seem to remember that either RUE or the GMG made it that all weapons are 50 MDC straight across the board, unless their description says otherwise. RUE did change it so that stuff takes damage from area effect weapons. Plasma/HE/AP missiles only affect stuff on the side of the body it hits, while a fusion missile explosion is a ball of energy and hits everything in its blast radius, irregardless of facing. Fusion explosions are character strippers because not only do they completely destroy the armor, but if the explosion does enough damage it destroys all equipment as well. So a character may survive the blast due to the GI Joe Rule, but be left in nothing more than their scivies, if they remembered to wear them.

[Noon]

If your convinced, why not try the ideas I've laid out - it couldn't be a threat to how you do things, if your really convinced.

[Mouser13]

I found this a long time ago though it my help you. This another person idea on what gear your characters should have.

http://www.comcen.com.au/~easy/neonrift/eqpavail.htm


Though it is very out of date.