Why would magic based MDC work in Splicers

[csbioborg]

Magic creatures MDC brought over to Splicers makes no sense. The remise for MDC for magic creatures in Rifts is magic is so much stronger there than say the Palladium fantasy world. Splicer's world has absolutely no ley lines according to the book. There is a whole page dedicated to how magically void the Splicer's world is. Yet the game only makes modifications to magic and says supernatural stenghth and MDC will stay the same. I have a off and on game that spends most of its time in Rifts Earth. As we only get together occsaionlly we take turns at being DM. ONe person will make a adventure and at its end we turn it over to another person.

This time my plan is to have a retirval mission into Splicers. The premise is one of the NPC's (a Society of Sages Member) has was randomly blasted through a rift during our last adventure which had us defeating a adult great horned dragon. The NPC is a head hunter that was thought killed helping us slay the dragon. The society finnaly has found him on the Splicer world through a divination. We are going there to get are old friend. The twist is it has been a number of years since he went throuhg the rift. In those years he was captured and turned into a biotic. He dosen't remeber us as a result. The resistance group that he is with thinks that he suffers from the delusion that he is from another world. This is actually a small part of his memory coming back to the surface.

We have several magic MDC charecters. Inlucding my own bioborg, We have a renegage mage from the city with the three gods and a tattoo man I think that we should all have to revert to S.D.C. beings while over there. Since our campiagn is pretty egalitarian mostlyt since we take turns as DM I need to resolve this. Also I find it strange that supernatural being that have less in common with mammals than lizards would will triiger the nanotech plague. Comments advice suggestions?

[Jesterzzn]

Short answer is that the old Rifts explination of why CoM are MDC/SN Str has been retconed all to hell long before Splicers was released. In fact, even the first conversion book started to chip away at that premise.

The easiest way is to make everything SDC. My personal way would be to just use the rules and ignore the inconsistancies in the fluff text. Neither are really ideal, but I would probably take both to my players and let them decide.

[sHaka]

Doesn't Megaversal Builder throw some light on this (I don't own it).

From what I've gathered from discussions on this forum is that a dimensions are either MDC supportable or not. That Splicers is an MDC Universe is enough to allow supernaturals and magic to be MDC, despite the very low levels of ambient magic. Otherwise the game would SDC based like HU or BTS, and CoM would be SDC too.

Just a thought.

[Killer Cyborg]

Short answer is that the old Rifts explination of why CoM are MDC/SN Str has been retconed all to hell long before Splicers was released. In fact, even the first conversion book started to chip away at that premise.

Yup.
The super-charged ley-lines on Rifts Earth are no longer the reason why magic does Mega-Damage there.

[Thinyser]

Short answer is that the old Rifts explination of why CoM are MDC/SN Str has been retconed all to hell long before Splicers was released. In fact, even the first conversion book started to chip away at that premise.

Yup.
The super-charged ley-lines on Rifts Earth are no longer the reason why magic does Mega-Damage there.

According to DB7 Megaverse Builder your wrong. Its still the "level of magic" ie the "Super high magic" that gives them thier MDC.

All other levels of magic listed say nothing about magic being strengthed to MDC proportions. While not explicityly stateing that you must have "super high magic" levels (I would allow MDC Magic in a "high magic" dimensions too) this does clearly indicate that the level of magic is what is allows magic to be MDC on Rifts Earth.

[Killer Cyborg]

Short answer is that the old Rifts explination of why CoM are MDC/SN Str has been retconed all to hell long before Splicers was released. In fact, even the first conversion book started to chip away at that premise.

Yup.
The super-charged ley-lines on Rifts Earth are no longer the reason why magic does Mega-Damage there.

According to DB7 Megaverse Builder your wrong. Its still the "level of magic" ie the "Super high magic" that gives them thier MDC.

So how do you explain it, then?

[Thinyser]

Short answer is that the old Rifts explination of why CoM are MDC/SN Str has been retconed all to hell long before Splicers was released. In fact, even the first conversion book started to chip away at that premise.

Yup.
The super-charged ley-lines on Rifts Earth are no longer the reason why magic does Mega-Damage there.

According to DB7 Megaverse Builder your wrong. Its still the "level of magic" ie the "Super high magic" that gives them thier MDC.

So how do you explain it, then?

Explain what exactly?

[Killer Cyborg]

Short answer is that the old Rifts explination of why CoM are MDC/SN Str has been retconed all to hell long before Splicers was released. In fact, even the first conversion book started to chip away at that premise.

Yup.
The super-charged ley-lines on Rifts Earth are no longer the reason why magic does Mega-Damage there.

According to DB7 Megaverse Builder your wrong. Its still the "level of magic" ie the "Super high magic" that gives them thier MDC.

So how do you explain it, then?

Explain what exactly?

Why there's magic that does MD in low-magic environments (ala supernatural PS and MDC magical creatures in Splicers).

[Thinyser]

Short answer is that the old Rifts explination of why CoM are MDC/SN Str has been retconed all to hell long before Splicers was released. In fact, even the first conversion book started to chip away at that premise.

Yup.
The super-charged ley-lines on Rifts Earth are no longer the reason why magic does Mega-Damage there.

According to DB7 Megaverse Builder your wrong. Its still the "level of magic" ie the "Super high magic" that gives them thier MDC.

So how do you explain it, then?

Explain what exactly?

Why there's magic that does MD in low-magic environments (ala supernatural PS and MDC magical creatures in Splicers).

I didnt know there were MDC magical creatures in Splicers. I wouldn't allow that if there is not a high enough level of magic to support MDC.

Judging by this then Splicer's dimension is a high/super high magic level dimension and offensive spells would do MD too.

IMO its probably one of the many many Palladium goofs.

[Armorlord]

Basically, it seems the current understanding is that some dimensions are able to support mega-damage energy states, while others are not. In MD capable universes, MD scale technology is possible, 'superpowers' reach greater heights, and magic is grander in scope as well. Splicers isn't new in that, it's continuing the trend from conversion books, the Three Galaxies' books, The Sentinels, Skraypers, and technically Wormwood, though it's an odd case with nearly inaccessible leylines for arteries. Increased leyline and ambient PPE levels now just make things more desirable for magic with more free PPE.
Rifts Earth isn't unique for it's high leyline/PPE activity, though that makes it desirable to magic users and creatures of magic as well and it's considered high even among the growing number of known super leyline worlds, it is now unique for it's position as a Megaversal Nexus point, rivaling Center in reach and scale- which also makes it harder for one group to corner the market on it.

[cornholioprime]

Short answer is that the old Rifts explination of why CoM are MDC/SN Str has been retconed all to hell long before Splicers was released. In fact, even the first conversion book started to chip away at that premise.

Yup.
The super-charged ley-lines on Rifts Earth are no longer the reason why magic does Mega-Damage there.

According to DB7 Megaverse Builder your wrong. Its still the "level of magic" ie the "Super high magic" that gives them thier MDC.

So how do you explain it, then?

Explain what exactly?

Why there's magic that does MD in low-magic environments (ala supernatural PS and MDC magical creatures in Splicers).

I didnt know there were MDC magical creatures in Splicers. I wouldn't allow that if there is not a high enough level of magic to support MDC.

Judging by this then Splicer's dimension is a high/super high magic level dimension and offensive spells would do MD too.

IMO its probably one of the many many Palladium goofs.

THAT is supposed to be the key -the nature of the Dimension proper -and not just the magic level on just one planet.

The Atlanteans' Super-Rift screwed up the Rifts Dimension but good.
Well, that, and the inconsistent out-of-game explanations for MDC magical damage.

[cornholioprime]

Basically, it seems the current understanding is that some dimensions are able to support mega-damage energy states, while others are not. In MD capable universes, MD scale technology is possible, 'superpowers' reach greater heights, and magic is grander in scope as well. Splicers isn't new in that, it's continuing the trend from conversion books, the Three Galaxies' books, The Sentinels, Skraypers, and technically Wormwood, though it's an odd case with nearly inaccessible leylines for arteries. Increased leyline and ambient PPE levels now just make things more desirable for magic with more free PPE.
Rifts Earth isn't unique for it's high leyline/PPE activity, though that makes it desirable to magic users and creatures of magic as well and it's considered high even among the growing number of known super leyline worlds, it is now unique for it's position as a Megaversal Nexus point, rivaling Center in reach and scale- which also makes it harder for one group to corner the market on it.

What he said.

(Post Count +1)

[Danger]

Basically, it seems the current understanding is that some dimensions are able to support mega-damage energy states, while others are not.

Sounds reasonable.

[sHaka]

Basically, it seems the current understanding is that some dimensions are able to support mega-damage energy states, while others are not. In MD capable universes, MD scale technology is possible, 'superpowers' reach greater heights, and magic is grander in scope as well. Splicers isn't new in that, it's continuing the trend from conversion books, the Three Galaxies' books, The Sentinels, Skraypers, and technically Wormwood, though it's an odd case with nearly inaccessible leylines for arteries. Increased leyline and ambient PPE levels now just make things more desirable for magic with more free PPE.
Rifts Earth isn't unique for it's high leyline/PPE activity, though that makes it desirable to magic users and creatures of magic as well and it's considered high even among the growing number of known super leyline worlds, it is now unique for it's position as a Megaversal Nexus point, rivaling Center in reach and scale- which also makes it harder for one group to corner the market on it.

What he said.

(Post Count +1)

Which is Kinda what I originally said (post count +1)



But thinking about it, Splicers is specifically noted as being a null magic zone - does this apply to the whole dimension too, or just the Splicers world....

Hard to see that there isn't at least one Rifts Earth/Centre style world in the Splicers universe..

[The Galactus Kid]

I would say that it is probablly just the Splicers Homeworld. I do think it would be cool to see Splicers: Space. I think I just over stimulated myself.

[cornholioprime]

I would say that it is probablly just the Splicers Homeworld. I do think it would be cool to see Splicers: Space. I think I just over stimulated myself.

When combined with your current tagline, "smells funny," you'll excuse me for not wanting to shake your hand at the next 'Con.

And no, I don't want any of your homemade Chocolate Pretzels, either.

[Killer Cyborg]

The problem I always had with MDC as it is that the scaling is nonsensical. It's ludicrous to explain how a punch from a supernatural creature that can only lift a couple of ton's does MDC when a round from a pre-rifts tanks only does SDC(1D4 MDC). Tank rounds cause Killotons of explosive force! K-I-L-L-O-T-O-N-S. If you use the magic strength argument, I can only say why do borgs and small bots do MDC damage they aren't magical?

That's not a problem with Mega-Damage; that's a problem with having having multiple strength levels, and with having some of them inflict MD.

[Killer Cyborg]

That's not a problem with Mega-Damage; that's a problem with having multiple strength levels, and with having some of them inflict MD.

The problem I factor, is when you have a system like MDC in place it facilitates more MDC structure and weapons to promote balance.

The proliferation of mega-damage doesn't come from an attempt to promote balance, it comes from a lack of perspective.

In theory Supernatural beings and robots should be able to lift Megga even gigga tons inorder to inflict the massive damage they do, but I see your point. I never acused RIFTS of being elligant, it's just a cool setting.

I'd either drastically increase the lift/carry strength to match the mega-damage inflicted, or (preferably) just drop the damage inflicted from punches to reasonable levels.

[Armorlord]

That's not a problem with Mega-Damage; that's a problem with having multiple strength levels, and with having some of them inflict MD.

The problem I factor, is when you have a system like MDC in place it facilitates more MDC structure and weapons to promote balance. In theory Supernatural beings and robots should be able to lift Megga even gigga tons inorder to inflict the massive damage they do, but I see your point. I never acused RIFTS of being elligant, it's just a cool setting.

Supernatural strength damage isn't by benefit of physical strength for the most part, it's by way of it being Supernatural. Much the same as any enchanted sword, whether enchanted for damage or not, deals mega-damage even when wielded by a puny human.
As for other strength types, also remember that punching force does not equal lifting/carrying force at all in real life. All in all, professional weightlifters with great lifting capacity have punches which are far less, while someone more wiry is capable of throwing a punch much in excess of what they could lift.
Admittedly it gets a little wonky with all the different types and amounts though.

[Killer Cyborg]

That's not a problem with Mega-Damage; that's a problem with having multiple strength levels, and with having some of them inflict MD.

The problem I factor, is when you have a system like MDC in place it facilitates more MDC structure and weapons to promote balance. In theory Supernatural beings and robots should be able to lift Megga even gigga tons inorder to inflict the massive damage they do, but I see your point. I never acused RIFTS of being elligant, it's just a cool setting.

Supernatural strength damage isn't by benefit of physical strength for the most part, it's by way of it being Supernatural. Much the same as any enchanted sword, whether enchanted for damage or not, deals mega-damage even when wielded by a puny human.
As for other strength types, also remember that punching force does not equal lifting/carrying force at all in real life. All in all, professional weightlifters with great lifting capacity have punches which are far less, while someone more wiry is capable of throwing a punch much in excess of what they could lift.
Admittedly it gets a little wonky with all the different types and amounts though.

The "supernatural" explanation would work except, as was pointed out and as you acknowledged, it doesn't account for other levels of PS that inflict MD (like Robotic) without the actual strength to back it up.

You could claim funky super-hydrolic punching designs... but really, why bother?
It's just an attempt to spackle up a very obvious hole in the system.
If you're going to patch it, do it right.

[Armorlord]

Yeah, robotic is the one that is a little odder. If you wanted to dig too deeply robotic strength, lift/carry, and damage should vary a lot more between designs. Though, since most robots are humanoid form I tend to accept the simplification, even though I know in reality that there can be big differences in applied lift and directed force between machines of differing designs, mass, and tech.

[Killer Cyborg]

Yeah, robotic is the one that is a little odder. If you wanted to dig too deeply robotic strength, lift/carry, and damage should vary a lot more between designs. Though, since most robots are humanoid form I tend to accept the simplification, even though I know in reality that there can be big differences in applied lift and directed force between machines of differing designs, mass, and tech.

All true, but that still leaves us with situations where a normal human who can lift/carry more than a humanoid robot inflicts a heck of a lot less damage on a punch (even with MDC gauntlets to protect his hands).

[Mouser13]

Short answer is that the old Rifts explination of why CoM are MDC/SN Str has been retconed all to hell long before Splicers was released. In fact, even the first conversion book started to chip away at that premise.

Yup.
The super-charged ley-lines on Rifts Earth are no longer the reason why magic does Mega-Damage there.

Yes, it seems that if m.d.c. tech exists M.D.C. magic exist. Phase world has a example.

[Tinker Dragoon]

This message has been moved to the Splicers Forum, where the topic is more applicable and appropriate. If you have a problem with how this post was handled please direct all inquires to deific.nmi@gmail.com, including the url to the post in question.