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Does anyone know if there's any submarines (Pre-Crash or otherwise) in the AtB that are in use? or were found??

Signed,
Rathorc Lemenger.

Submarines get eaten by sea monsters.

I would say without a doubt there are world powers with submarines, but I don't think the previous posters are looking on the right continents for them.

Pg. 166, Lakenveld's military is dominated by a strong navy of early 21st century technology. The description eludes to Lakenveld's navy being the dominant branch of it's military, and I think it would be naive to think they don't have submarines of some sort.

Inukuruland can exceed any of the North American powers production (in the description it says it can manufacture tens of thousands of various vehicles and aircraft). The book says it's not as high tech as their neighbors, so that leaves their technologies wide open for debate as well. I wouldn't put it past them to be churning out diesel submarines.

The problem being, we're basically told in few words that these new European and African powers (new to those of us from AtB1) are technologically (and economically if you read between the lines) superior to EoH, Cardania, etc. Even though the EoH is supposed to be the gold standard of power in AtB.

I pray that no one makes a supplement or submits a Rifter article fleshing these European or African powers out because they need to be left vague and open to interpretation lest the game gets riftsdiculuous.

I think a good resource to submarines in a post apocalyptic setting would be the 3 or 4 Twilight:2000 modules that were put out concerning submarines.

macksting wrote:*jots down another reason to be annoyed with AtB2 before he buys it*

Why is that?

macksting wrote:How many new countries is that, all added in to what was an interesting mix already? All with superdupertech which is apparently higher than EoH's.
Wujcik, I like you, man, and meatpotatoes are awesome, but I suspect like your old AtB better.

These are some, if not all the new powers you find in AtB2. Keep in mind, you don't get much of a description for these outside of a paragraph or maybe at best a sentence. You really have to look deep into the book to find a couple of these and you'll blow right by them without noticing. Usually it's the old school die hard AtB1 folks that miss some of this because a few of them are buried in the animal descriptions or elsewhere.

I have a word document that I put together using every AtB Book & Supplement (to include MIO). I collected all the data I could (population numbers, tidbits of information and facts, technology, government, influential personages, etc.).

What I really don't understand is the huge disparity in population numbers of the new powers compared to those you find in in the older books (the powers from AtB1 for North America are relatively unchanged for AtB2). Check out Zambiziland with it's pop. of 120 million and the statement "Possibly the highest technology on the planet (advanced super computing, gene-tech, & microchip manufacturing)" which kinda contradicts the statements about EoH being "strongest and most feared of all the post holocaust powers", and "...the empire has by far the strongest manufacturing capacity in the known world".

Sorry, but their production numbers ain't that great (read the descriptions for EoH Power Armor and so forth to see the numbers) when you compare it to the statement of Inkuruland being able to pump out tens of thousands pieces of equipment and vehicles.

Then there is the Ganesh super psionic (?) mutant elephants that were able to teleport into a secret EoH laboratory (which I imagine had to be fairly well secure given the experiment) and walk away with what they went in for. Not too mention a pop. of 345+ million with armies numbering in the millions.

The best we have in the old world of AtB1 is Imperial Mexico with about 15 million mutant animals, followed by the Prairie Dog Imperium and possibly Free Cattle (but IIRC there are no pop. numbers for Free Cattle).


Lakenveld (the Netherlands)
Capital City: The Hague w/pop. of 340,000
Population: 3,300,000

• Strong Constitutional Democracy
• Strong Navy
• Substantial infantry, armored, & air units (each equipped w/early 21st century technology
• Highly industrialized
------------------------------------
Skandia (Northern Denmark)
Capital City: Alborg w/pop. of 55,000
Population: 1,000,000

• The last remaining human-dominated country in Europe
• 20,000 soldiers currently defending the border (Skandia is in the process of arming & equipping a force of 50,000)
• Powerful Navy & Air Force
• Advanced genetics technology, perhaps the best in the world
------------------------------------
New France (France)
Capital City: NA
Population: 18,400,000

• Not so much a nation, rather it is an alliance that exists based on a common hatred of SAECSN
• Mutant animals & France’s remaining humans have formed three great armies
• Politically unstable
------------------------------------
Zambiziland (Southeast Africa)
Capital City: Zambi w/pop. of 500,000
Population: 120,000,000

• Constitutional Republic
• Possibly the highest technology on the planet (advanced super computing, gene-tech, & microchip manufacturing)
• Home of the Donta (purebred elephants)
------------------------------------
Talichiland (Southwest Africa)
Capital City: Unknown
Population: Unknown

• Hive society of Naked Mole Rats
------------------------------------
Inkuruland (South Africa)
Capital City: Kuri w/pop. of 3,415,000
Population: 24,000,000

• Federation of different clans, tribes, villages, & other political entities
• High level of industrial production
------------------------------------
Ganesh (Indian Subcontinent)
Capital City: Ganeshi w/pop. of 1,800,000
Population: 384,500,000

• Theocracy based upon the worship of the Ganeshi
• Vast armies numbering in the millions that dominate their neighbors west to Afghanistan, north to Kajikistan and Kyrgystan, and east to Burma
• The Ganeshi purebred elephants are some kind of Pre-Death genetic Chimera experiment with a third eye & extraordinary psionics
• Home of the Hyderabad (purebred Baboons), technologically ingenious inventors & devoted worshippers of the Ganeshi
------------------------------------
Mutant Mole Metropolis (AtB2 pg 121)
------------------------------------
Porkopolis (AtB2 pg crap...I forget, IIRC it's under the description of the Flying Pigs(?) and it's in Cincinnati).
------------------------------------
Bohlen, formerly Heidelberg Germany (it had the largest concentration of biotechnic corporations or something like that...I'd have to go back and read what it's role is in AtB2 but I don't think you get more than a brief sentence).
------------------------------------
Fortress South Africa (IIRC it's the sole remaining human dominated power in Africa or something...I'll try to get the page number)

macksting wrote:Considering the extent to which the Empire has air superiority, their generally poor navy (with the exception of the McCarthy), and the extent to which their scientists underestimate mutant animals, I'd say the idea of Cardania maintaining a diesel submarine is a really interesting idea.
What should they do with it?

Spying on Empire shore facilities..

macksting wrote:You understand my frustration, I take it. Part of this annoyance certainly is that he didn't add to my favorite Palladium setting; he totally rewrote it. His prerogative, but when a writer revamps a setting, he can expect people to get huffy.
But honestly, that's just it. Powers we could consider major heroes and villains are now dwarfed entirely, made practically irrelevant, by the new powers.

EoH is still the most powerful and feared North American group. most of ATB was written from a north american perspective. (even in the old books, Jakarta was portrayed as more powerful than the EoH, albiet less advanced in many areas)

remember that with the collapse of human civilization intercontinental travel is limited and difficult. things are back to the 1500's in many places in regards to trade and travel (mostly regional with limited and expensive long range trade to other regions)

and the ability to project military and economic power oversea's is practically non-existant.

the african nations have little interest outside africa (too much going on in africa). europe is too busy dealing with other european groups to go invadign any one else. austrailia is cut off from nearly the rest of the world due to it's location. asia is seperate from europe by the steppes, tundra, and deserts of siberia and mongolia in the north, and the himalaya's in the south. and it's got the whole pacific to deal with to reach america.

all these groups are local powers, unable to really influence groups outside their own continent.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

macksting wrote:You understand my frustration, I take it. Part of this annoyance certainly is that he didn't add to my favorite Palladium setting; he totally rewrote it. His prerogative, but when a writer revamps a setting, he can expect people to get huffy.
But honestly, that's just it. Powers we could consider major heroes and villains are now dwarfed entirely, made practically irrelevant, by the new powers.

EoH is still the most powerful and feared North American group. most of ATB was written from a north american perspective. (even in the old books, Jakarta was portrayed as more powerful than the EoH, albiet less advanced in many areas)

remember that with the collapse of human civilization intercontinental travel is limited and difficult. things are back to the 1500's in many places in regards to trade and travel (mostly regional with limited and expensive long range trade to other regions)

and the ability to project military and economic power oversea's is practically non-existant.

the african nations have little interest outside africa (too much going on in africa). europe is too busy dealing with other european groups to go invadign any one else. austrailia is cut off from nearly the rest of the world due to it's location. asia is seperate from europe by the steppes, tundra, and deserts of siberia and mongolia in the north, and the himalaya's in the south. and it's got the whole pacific to deal with to reach america.

all these groups are local powers, unable to really influence groups outside their own continent.

I don't buy some of that. I think allot of these groups would have at least sent expeditions off to see what became of some of the old civilizations and trade (or war?) would ensue. The human dominated groups are all pretty much so against the ropes, I think they'd be reaching out looking for like minded groups.

Also, you've still got radio communication and with all the vehicles of groups like the EoH & SAECSN either side is bound to hear the other eventually (when I was flying in TN during certain times of the year we could hear radio transmissions from HI on certain frequencies).

macksting wrote:I suppose nothing much has changed for Avalon! Separated by narsty monsters in the water (even SAECSN uses air and the chunnel to get across) and a larger ocean besides, it sounds like only SAECSN has taken an interest. And unless somebody comes along behind them and wipes them off the map, England's pretty much on its own, right?
Please say I'm right.

Well, that's what this new horde of New France is trying to do...wipe SAECSN off the map (or at the very least kick them off of mainland Europe). You don't get much more about SAECSN than you got in Avalon.