P.P.E question ...

[Lenwen]

When rolling up a mage class do you guys allow the PC's to use BOTH the racial PPE combined with the class PPE ?

Or do you guys have them pick an choose one or the other ?

I've always allowed them to combine the two Racial AND Class PPE into thier overall PPE at lvl 1. I never thought anything of this until I recently played with one female who flat out said " if she could play like this legally she woulda been a LLW along time ago "

I dident know some GM's out there only let them have one or the other but not both .

-Lenwen.

[lather]

Give them one, not both, and give them the highest of the two.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Both is the fairest way to do it.

[bigbobsr6000]

Both.

[verdilak]

I give both, but remember EVERY race gives PPE bonuses, so I normally use the teenage number.

[Natasha]

Give them one, not both, and give them the highest of the two.

The correct way to do it.

[Ahulane]

Easy way to answer this is by looking at the new D-Bees of North America book, and looking at the Blucie race or the Dewtani. In the book it lists their PPE and says specifically to add their racial PPE to any PPE gained from a chosen magic OCC. Most other races just state the racial PPE and thats it, while others state the PPE and give a per level amount. In the latter case those RCC's are the ones that are the RCC's that cannot choose anything but their racial class (like the faerie bot, silhouette, and lanotaur hunters).

SO...if it doesn't state that the PPE is added to the PPE gained from a magic OCC, then you don't combine them based off of that observation.

[sasha]

Give them one, not both, and give them the highest of the two.

I agree to use the highest.

You are creating a magic user which means he has a certain amount of P.P.E. by default; however, if the character becoming a magic user has more than that, by all means, let him have it.

Combining it just doesn't make sense to me.

[Lenwen]

Give them one, not both, and give them the highest of the two.

I agree to use the highest.

You are creating a magic user which means he has a certain amount of P.P.E. by default; however, if the character becoming a magic user has more than that, by all means, let him have it.

Combining it just doesn't make sense to me.

Every lifeform in Palladium system has PPE ..
Certain Classes give bonas's to that ppe ..
Hence me Giving them thier Racial+Class PPE total .

This to me makes perfect sence . Course it may not to others .
-Lenwen.

[verdilak]

Give them one, not both, and give them the highest of the two.

The correct way to do it.

Cannon references?

[Natasha]

Give them one, not both, and give them the highest of the two.

The correct way to do it.

Cannon references?

Well to be clear then: this is just my opinion.

I don't think there's any canon one way or the other.

[sasha]

Give them one, not both, and give them the highest of the two.

The correct way to do it.

Cannon references?

There're plenty of cannons in Palladium Books' games

[sasha]

Give them one, not both, and give them the highest of the two.

I agree to use the highest.

You are creating a magic user which means he has a certain amount of P.P.E. by default; however, if the character becoming a magic user has more than that, by all means, let him have it.

Combining it just doesn't make sense to me.

Every lifeform in Palladium system has PPE ..
Certain Classes give bonas's to that ppe ..
Hence me Giving them thier Racial+Class PPE total .

This to me makes perfect sence . Course it may not to others .
-Lenwen.

Bonuses are one thing.
Choosing base P.P.E. another.

[Lenwen]

Give them one, not both, and give them the highest of the two.

I agree to use the highest.

You are creating a magic user which means he has a certain amount of P.P.E. by default; however, if the character becoming a magic user has more than that, by all means, let him have it.

Combining it just doesn't make sense to me.

Every lifeform in Palladium system has PPE ..
Certain Classes give bonas's to that ppe ..
Hence me Giving them thier Racial+Class PPE total .

This to me makes perfect sence . Course it may not to others .
-Lenwen.

Bonuses are one thing.
Choosing base P.P.E. another.

To me the BASE PPE = Racial PPE . Class PPE is added to it . Thats the way I let my PC's roll thier Mage type classes ..
-Lenwen.

[sasha]

To me the BASE PPE = Racial PPE . Class PPE is added to it . Thats the way I let my PC's roll thier Mage type classes ..
-Lenwen.

That's cool. It's a matter of perspective.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The cannon Way is to give the higher of the two Base PPEs.

You only get a racal PPE if its a Bonus PPE.

The only two classes that I can think of off hand that get Bonus PPE are Godlings and DemiGods.

[verdilak]

The cannon Way is to give the higher of the two Base PPEs.

You only get a racal PPE if its a Bonus PPE.

Where, exactly, is the canon reference/rule for this?

[sasha]

The cannon Way is to give the higher of the two Base PPEs.

You only get a racal PPE if its a Bonus PPE.

Where, exactly, is the canon reference/rule for this?

I don't know if there is canon for this, but it makes all the sense in the world to do it this way.

[sasha]

The cannon Way is to give the higher of the two Base PPEs.

You only get a racal PPE if its a Bonus PPE.

Where, exactly, is the canon reference/rule for this?

I don't know if there is canon for this, but it makes all the sense in the world to do it this way.

Mage PPE is based on a human mage, so it at least makes sense for the PPE of a mage whose race has a higher base PPE to have more PPE to start. And I really want to see his cannon reference.

Everything but the typo makes sense, ok...

[sasha]

Then read this thread again. It was not an error.

I did. Mind throwing me a clue?

[sasha]

Eh.

Well, moving right along then.

[Natasha]

The cannon Way is to give the higher of the two Base PPEs.

You only get a racal PPE if its a Bonus PPE.

Where, exactly, is the canon reference/rule for this?

I don't know if there is canon for this, but it makes all the sense in the world to do it this way.

Mage PPE is based on a human mage, so it at least makes sense for the PPE of a mage whose race has a higher base PPE to have more PPE to start. And I really want to see his cannon reference.

Everything but drewkitty ~..~'s typo makes sense, ok...

Fixed.

I'm so smrt! Yes!

[sasha]

Yes. Very.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I may of over-stated it when I said it was the cannon way to take the higher of the two between racial and OCC Base PPEs.
However, it is the accepted way to handle a PPE base variance.
The understanding for picking the higher of the two PPEs comes from the Godling class and its ability to take Two or Three classes of magic as part of the char's racial powers. So has to pick which PPE base to use, since the char CanNot add multiple base scores together.

However, if you want some thing cannon... The base PPE for any Magic class is the base PPE stated in the Class description.

Exceptions being Supernatural beings (Gods, angels, demons), Creatures of Magic (Dragons, Sphinx) and beings with a magical nature (silhouettes). These racal classes where their racial Base PPE supersedes any other class PPE base.

Determining PPE points
The determination of PPE points is quick and simple. Roll 6D6. This is the arcanist's permanent PPE base.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Your canon reference is a game that only allows human characters, it doesn't wash in Rifts where anything and everything is possible.

The cannon reference was of the first book to use PPE for its magic system.

Lets see... what are the phrase... 'get back to the basics'

[Natasha]

how would PPE change for a race with differing base PPE than a human?

Trick question. It wouldn't change.

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip... how would PPE change for a race with differing base PPE than a human?

According to the rules, None. The classes do not differentiate between different races when setting the base PPE for the magic Class.


The only place that there is an example of two races having two different PPE bases is in the NightSpawn and NightBane books. Where they have the mage class and a Mystic class and having the same classes for NS/NB. However, since the NS/NB classes use a modified Racial PPE base, this supports the SN,CoM, magical beings exceptions.

However, if you want to make the Racial base relevent to the magic class, then you need to multiply the racial base by 1d4x10, for all races even the current exceptions. This would make the SN, and CoM mages having 1000's of PPE not 100's.

[bigbobsr6000]

Take the Base OCC PPE + Base RCC PPE = total PPE/2 = PPE for PC. Then if each get get x PPE/level add together/2 = New PPE/level.

Or give the highest of the two.

Or add both together for new PPE base.

If none of these please y'all, then thumb wrestle, have staring contest, spit wads at 10 paces, etc. to decide what to do.

Sometimes if I like several options of away to do something in a RPG, I just roll the dice to determine which I use.

I tried this a lot to decide stuff. All I got was a headache and I had to pay for damage to the brick wall. Not good all round.

[bigbobsr6000]

Bob, I appreciate the sentiment, but what does it have to do with canon debate, or even cannon debate?

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

You win, have a cookie.

[drewkitty ~..~]

How does that work when the rules make no such explicit statement?

It also doesn't make an explicit that you add the racal and class base.

If fact, it does explicitly states what you do get in each magic class is something that defines how much that class gets.

There is no mention in that definition about about adding the normal race's PPE level to the developed PPE level.

[Natasha]

How does that work when the rules make no such explicit statement?

It also doesn't make an explicit that you add the racal and class base.

If fact, it does explicitly states what you do get in each magic class is something that defines how much that class gets.

There is no mention in that definition about about adding the normal race's PPE level to the developed PPE level.

No, it never addresses that question. So tell me, why should a race with a higher base PPE not have more PPE as a mage?

He will have more since his P.P.E. base is more.

[Natasha]

Ah, I had to re-read it few times. I get it now.
Well, I stay by my words still hehe.

[Natasha]

Ah, I had to re-read it few times. I get it now.
Well, I stay by my words still hehe.

Which words?

That if a race gives you higher base P.P.E. than O.C.C. gives, then you take your race's base P.P.E.; however, if O.C.C. gives higher base P.P.E. than you race gives, then you get O.C.C.'s base P.P.E. But you don't add them together; but you can add bonuses if you get them somehow.

[sasha]

These words, then?

Give them one, not both, and give them the highest of the two.

The correct way to do it.

[bigbobsr6000]

I got these off Palladium Books® Games Q. & A. Forum


Question: What is the base P.P.E. of a Stonemaster?
Answer: According to the RBOM (4th printing, Dec. 2006), Atlantean Stone Masters have P.E. x 3 + 30 P.P.E. at first level, plus racial/tatoo bonuses. Non-atlanteans have P.E. x 2 + 30 P.P.E. Both gain an additional 2D6 P.P.E. per level.

Question: Demigod PPE -- when you choose power #10 does the demigod automatically get the godling's PPE too ? (which is 4d6x10 + 4D6 per level)
under PPE it mentions the OCC + 4D6 for the Demigod.
is that: if the OCC is 1D6x10 it becomes 1D6x10+4D6 plus what the OCC gets per level -- or is it something else ? someone was saying the 4D6 is the per level.
same with #9 and ISP.
Answer: 1) No. Only the Godling gets the Godling's P.P.E. base.
2) The 4D6 bonus applies to base P.P.E./I.S.P. only, so if the Demigod's O.C.C. has 6D6 P.P.E., the Demigod will have 10D6 P.P.E.

Question: This is regarding Godling Power #10.
I've seen elsewhere that if you choose this power you get all OCC Abilities and Skills(excluding related skills). Does this include all OCC bonuses?
Example: My Godling Techno Wizard takes power #10 twice, selecting Ley Line Walker and Necromancer.
Woud the Godling get the bonuses from all the Magic OCC's?
And would his starting PPE be that of all 3 OCC's combined, or will it just be the Godling's 3D4 X 10 +20?
Any help is appreciated.
Answer: Godlings can't be Techno-Wizards, but since it's irrelevant to the question, I'll not belabor the matter.
Godling Power #10: Magic Powers offers "all the abilities of a practitioner of magic," i.e. whatever magic that class offers plus the numbered powers/abilities given in the class description (e.g. Ley Line Phasing, Speak Elemental, Magic Bonuses, etc.), EXCEPT for P.P.E. base/progression and starting spells.
P.P.E. for spellcasting Godlings is a flat 3D4x10+20 plus 4D6 per level. The Godling does not gain any P.P.E. from his chosen Magic Power class (and technically, neither does the Demigod). However, one might notice that with the advent of RUE, the core magic classes now have substantially more P.P.E., with several putting the Godling to shame. It may then be reasonable to scale up the Godling's P.P.E. to put the R.C.C. at its intended power level, perhaps about 40% above a Ley Line Walker's P.P.E. base.
And of course, spells will be equal to the character's level, so a 3rd level Godling with Line Walker and Necromancer powers will have all standard magic spells from levels 1-3 plus all necromantic/bone magic spells from levels 1-3.

[Natasha]

Ah, I had to re-read it few times. I get it now.
Well, I stay by my words still hehe.

Which words?

That if a race gives you higher base P.P.E. than O.C.C. gives, then you take your race's base P.P.E.; however, if O.C.C. gives higher base P.P.E. than you race gives, then you get O.C.C.'s base P.P.E. But you don't add them together; but you can add bonuses if you get them somehow.

So I'm not right then I'm right then I'm not right. Women...

No I just get lost in English some times.

[Natasha]

Ah, I had to re-read it few times. I get it now.
Well, I stay by my words still hehe.

Which words?

That if a race gives you higher base P.P.E. than O.C.C. gives, then you take your race's base P.P.E.; however, if O.C.C. gives higher base P.P.E. than you race gives, then you get O.C.C.'s base P.P.E. But you don't add them together; but you can add bonuses if you get them somehow.

So I'm not right then I'm right then I'm not right. Women...

No I just get lost in English some times.

So do we.

I never flipflop so.

[Natasha]

No. I've been consistent in my stance. Maybe I express it wrongly because I failed in English but I never change it itself.

[Natasha]

An erroneous flip-flop is still a flip-flop.

Show me the flip flop then.

[Natasha]

How does that work when the rules make no such explicit statement?

It also doesn't make an explicit that you add the racal and class base.

If fact, it does explicitly states what you do get in each magic class is something that defines how much that class gets.

There is no mention in that definition about about adding the normal race's PPE level to the developed PPE level.

No, it never addresses that question. So tell me, why should a race with a higher base PPE not have more PPE as a mage?

He will have more since his P.P.E. base is more.

Flip-flop.

I'm sorry, I still don't understand where I flip flop. I always say use highest base P.P.E. for character's base P.P.E. I can't give fuller explanation in English. Sorry.

[sasha]

How does that work when the rules make no such explicit statement?

It also doesn't make an explicit that you add the racal and class base.

If fact, it does explicitly states what you do get in each magic class is something that defines how much that class gets.

There is no mention in that definition about about adding the normal race's PPE level to the developed PPE level.

No, it never addresses that question. So tell me, why should a race with a higher base PPE not have more PPE as a mage?

He will have more since his P.P.E. base is more.

Flip-flop.

I'm sorry, I still don't understand where I flip flop. I always say use highest base P.P.E. for character's base P.P.E. I can't give fuller explanation in English. Sorry.

You should consider that some races have base P.P.E. higher than humans' but less than mage O.C.C.s'. Basically, you're answer is not complete. If all races have base P.P.E. higher than mage O.C.C.s' then your answer is complete.

[Natasha]

So you have no answer to the question I posed Drew.

Sure I have an answer. You might even understand it.

If base P.P.E. of race is greater than base P.P.E. of O.C.C., then character's base P.P.E. is the race's.

If base P.P.E. of race is less than base P.P.E. of O.C.C., then character's base P.P.E. is the O.C.C.'s.

Rationale: Regardless of race, if you are becoming a mage O.C.C. and your base P.P.E. is less than the O.C.C.'s base, then part of your training is developing your P.P.E. in order to perform the magic you are learning. However, if you are becoming a mage O.C.C. and your base P.P.E. is greater than the O.C.C.'s base, then you are already at sufficient levels of P.P.E. for that mage O.C.C. and no further development is necessary.

Since humans are the baseline, you just take the highest base P.P.E. level and go on from there. Combining your racial P.P.E. and O.C.C. P.P.E. does not happen with humans so no reason it should happen with ogres or whatever.

On the other hand perhaps humans do combine racial P.P.E. and O.C.C. and it's just built in. But I really doubt that since this combining does not seem to be built in to any other race.

As a result, I conclude, you take the highest base P.P.E. and use that for your character without combinations happening simply because you're a P.P.E. rich race (and/or not a human).

[Natasha]

So a race with more PPE than humans is penalized when becoming a mage? That's where the thinking you're using is breaking down.

My thinking is not broken. You just don't think the same way.

And it's not a penalty. The race just has to work not as hard as a human to become a mage. And those races which have more P.P.E. than O.C.C. do not get their P.PE. reduced.

As with just about everything in my view of how characters are created and getting away from stat blocks and squeezing every last drop of minmaxpower possible out of a race/O.C.C. combo, it's a difference in perception and what it means to become an O.C.C.

[Natasha]

Ok and what about the human that outworks his fellow human?
Or the human that outworks the P.P.E.-rich race?

it's a difference in perception and what it means to become an O.C.C.

I have no issues with the rules at all.

[Natasha]

Ok and what about the human that outworks his fellow human?
Or the human that outworks the P.P.E.-rich race?

That's all well and good, but with racial templates, we have an established baseline with some variability. All of which is thrown out the window in determining PPE for mages. And you being ok with the rules does not make them less inconsistent and poorly worded.

I don't know what your answer to my questions is.

And it should be thrown out the window when you become a mage or any O.C.C.

It doesn't make them less inconsistent and poorly worded. They'd have to be inconsistent and poorly worded to begin with.

[Natasha]

And it should be thrown out the window when you become a mage or any O.C.C.

Why?

Because it's no longer a question of race, but one of O.C.C.

[Natasha]

And it should be thrown out the window when you become a mage or any O.C.C.

Why?

Because it's no longer a question of race, but one of O.C.C.

Then why are the attributes different? Suddenly the race takes a magic OCC and an inherent trait of the race is gone?

Attributes are not different. How are attributes different?

The trait is never lost. How is it lost?

[Natasha]

Yes, it is lost,

I disagree.

otherwise the higher PPE would still be present.

There's no reason why it has to be present.

Impasse reached?

[sasha]

So a race with more PPE than humans is penalized when becoming a mage? That's where the thinking you're using is breaking down. Although I shouldn't be trying to add sense to Rifts...

How is getting a larger base P.P.E. a penalty?

[Natasha]

Yes, it is lost,

The trait is indeed still there. May not be visible but nothing changes that Race_X is by nature more P.P.E. rich than humans.

otherwise the higher PPE would still be present.

If they grow in P.P.E. faster than humans, then they should be given a bonus per level of experience. Being by nature richer in P.P.E. than humans says nothing about how fast one grows P.P.E. over time.

Natasha (me) makes sense.

Misfit makes sense.

So choose a side.