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Mephisto wrote:

macksting wrote:Fair enough. Given time, technology would advance, especially as the folks of The Zone get their feet under themselves enough to try to profit off the surface.
Do any of the apprenticeships approach the level of knowledge required to synthesize pharmaceuticals or to maintain a nuclear power plant?

I'd say that knowledge is still pretty rare even on Modern Day Earth.

If someone has Chemistry: Analytical I'd say they could synthesize medicines if they could get the chemicals, or if they had component chemicals. Someone with Chemistry could do it under supervision.

On page 37 under Primary Skills:

AtB 2nd Ed. wrote:With the destruction of formal academia in The Crash, thousands of universities and colleges went from glowing centers of knowledge and research, to clusters of empty buildings. Worse, waves of anti-technology panic resulted in the wholesale destruction of schools, libraries, stores and laboratories. Nuclear winter, savagery, deterioration and the elements took care of the rest.

So here you can see that much of the educational infrastructure was destroyed by anti-tech panic, nuclear winter, war, and the elements. The section goes on to describe that "for at least a generation" there was no such thing as an education system and that new generations were brought up in "the most casual way," passing along "the basics of reading and arithmetic."

Later, when the current society arose, they fell back on the old way of teaching through trade apprenticeships. This was supported by the surviving doctors, mechanics, blacksmiths, etc.


On page 41 under Skill Descriptions in regards to some skills with lower base percentages compared to other Palladium settings:

AtB 2nd Ed. wrote:"This takes into consideration the often primitive cultures and lack of formal education in After the Bomb."

As described in the previous section "Primary Skills", since actual teaching facilities are "very rare", most characters have to learn by "hanging around" qualified instructors for several (6-10) years.

macksting wrote:For a population as small as Cardania's to maintain 1950s era technology would, I think, require a better education per capita than is usually available in the real world.

On page 170:

AtB 2nd Ed. wrote:"...but scattered groups of humans remain. Many of them hard at work helping the mutant animals establish schools, factories and governments for the new animal order."

As described here, there are some humans that are trying to help build schools, factories, etc, but success will probably vary. You can probably also imagine that anti-technology panic still exists, and that some animal communities may shun the pre-Death ways, so some of these facilities probably get burned down during or after construction.

There is no reason, IMHO, to assume that education per capita and any better off than how it is conveyed in the book(s). The "Academic Underground" (in AtB 2nd Edition) is most likely the group that is most responsible for maintaining the infrastructure those surviving humans have been able to get running again.

macksting wrote:We're talking some serious tech here. 1950s America was pretty impressive, really. Medicine, medical advancements, and the first (commercially unsuccessful) microwave ovens.

On page 170-171 under Economy:

AtB 2nd Ed. wrote:"Cardania produces most of the manufactured goods for the known animal world. Technologically, it's comparable to America in the mid-1950's...unable to handle advanced optics, electronics or computers."

Cardania's description and stats have not changed in 2nd Edition, which pretty much puts the bash on microwave ovens.

After the Bomb is not some utopian post-apocalyptic setting. Life is hard. There are no Burger Kings, no Wal-Marts, no information superhighway. The animal societies are still young and "civilization" has a long way to getting back to anything we are accustomed to.

Most rural areas most likely do not have a school, hospital, or even a telephone exchange. The lucky ones that do most likely have nothing more than single room school house where the most basic of skills are taught due to the lack of formally educated teachers, a clinic which a local doctor visits once a week, and maybe a wireless telegraph/radio communications office. Then there are the universities which are controlled and guarded by the Academic Underground, and I would imagine that their entry requirements are quite strict and expensive.

Sure the surviving humans have helped Cardania reestablish technology back to 1950's level, but that doesn't mean that the whole nation is living like "Leave it to Beaver." Smoketown and maybe one or two other "cities" may have a decent quality of life, but the rest of Cardania and other animal nations are still just getting by. Also keep in mind that the population of Cardania is only ~400,000. That's not that many when you really think about it, and most of them are most likely poorly educated, living in the rural parts of Cardania, or just making a living in the factories (not unlike many of the uneducated dropouts in America today).

macksting wrote:...is there any explanation of how 1940s technology level could be maintained without higher education, without a single masters-level education?

Take it from me, I've worked in several tech industries (electronics, computers, television) and all it takes to keep this stuff running is one or two good engineers. Most of the people who worked at these places couldn't tell you how the stuff worked or fix it without the engineers to support them. So my answer is no, you don't even need people with "masters-level" education to keep 21st technology maintained, let alone 1940s or 1950s technology.

And in regards to New Kennel, it's description is also the same as in the first edition.

AtB 2nd Ed. wrote:"New Kennel hasn't even made it out of the 19th Century."

http://members.tripod.com/~JAJ50s/tech.html

The colors there are horrible, so I'll post a C'N'P from "Technological Advances in the Fifties"

There were many scientific discoveries made in the 1950's, but here are the most important ones.

-1950
-Tritium, a hydrogen isotope, is discovered for use in the H-bomb.
-Dr. Richard Lawler performs first kidney transplant.

-1951
-First nuclear reactor is set-off.
-First commercially-produced, large-scale business computer (UNIVAC) is marketed.
-Artificial Pacemaker is developed.
-Plutonium is discovered.

-1952
-First artificial heart component is used.
-Transistors replace vacuum tubes in radios and T.V.'s.

-1953
-Jonas Salk's polio vaccine is proved to prevent polio.
-The structure of DNA is discovered.
-The Bell X-1A beaks the sound barrier.

-1954
-First nuclear-powered submarine and train are built.

-1955
-Oral Contraceptive pill is developed.

-1956
-DNA molecule is photographed.
-Photographs of the birth of stars are taken.

-1957
-Sputnik 1 is launched by USSR and orbits Earth.
-Sputnik 2 carries a dog into space.
-First Intercontinental Ballistic Missile is successfully tested by USSR.

-1958
-Integrated circuitry is invented and greatly reduces computer sizes.
-Stereo records are introduced.
-Measles Vaccine is developed.
-NASA is organized.
-Van Allen Radiation Belts are discovered in Space around the Earth.
-Ultrasound scanning is developed for observing fetuses.

-1959
-Vanguard, the first weather station in space, is launched by the U.S.
-The Heat-seeking missile is developed.
-Soviet Lunik 2 satellite is first man-made object to touch the moon.
-Lunik 3 takes photos of the moon's hidden side.

So, they probably don't have integrated circuitry, but they can manage a nuclear power plant and a fair degree of medicine.

macksting wrote:...am I coming at this from the wrong angle?

I think so. The US of the 1950s had a great deal of infrastructure to support the development as well as the ability to transport and import goods and materials from across the nation and across the world. All that is gone; wiped away by the Crash and the time of darkness that followed. In the three generations that passed (roughly 60 years) do you think that all the surviving people were thinking about was getting things back to the way they were, or were they just trying to survive those dark times?

Civilization was gone. What pockets survived had to start from scratch. Digging in the dirt to get what food and shelter they could salvage and start raising crops just so they wouldn't die in the winters that followed. It wasn't just some hick-up or bump in the road. Where talking about a heart attack that crippled the world. 74% of the human population died from the initial plague, who knows how many perished after in the chaos from the diseases and conflict that would have followed. The battle for resources must have been something fierce.

Those that survived have been able to rebuild part of what was lost. That it is compared to the 1950 level of technology may be a bit misleading, especially if all you do is look back at that era and figure that Cardania can build whatever it was that was built back then. We aren't talking about the peak of 1950's technology, but what was generally available at that time. These advancements you are talking about came from decades of growth, that really doesn't ally here. Just because they might be able to build an assembly line to produce cars and washing machines don't assume that they can also then build nuclear reactors and start shooting rockets into space. They require materials that are most likely no longer readily available.

As for prosperity. Cardania is leaps and bounds ahead of any other animal nation on this side of the continent. They are supplying "most of the manufactured goods for the known animal world", which is probably pretty small in the scheme of things, but is still enough to bring in enough capital to make like in Cardania prosperous under the conditions of things. Prosperity is relative, not to the 1950's but to a world that has been savaged by plague, war, and the rise of mutant animals.

However, since this is a role playing game and not some video game, you can mold the world into whatever you want. If someone wants to make it more cyberpunk, or you want to make Cardania more technological to fit your views, far be it from me to tell you how to run your game. These are just my views from what I have read. As Erick has said:

"it's up to the Game Master..."

One thing I will point out is that they aren't, truly, starting from scratch. While they've lost a lot, they've got something that people in the 1950s didn't:

An awareness of what is possible.

A lot of the how might be lost, but that it is possible is not going to be, especially not with the EoH nearby, showing off what can be done if you've got higher technology. Furthermore, the how can't be entirely destroyed... it can be largely destroyed. You can trash libraries, both public and private, and you will always miss some; reference Fahrenheit 451 for bibliophiles keeping books against popular opinion.

The people of Cardinia are going to know what is possible because of examples of higher technology, the memories of the older humans and mutants, and books that did survive the anti-technology purges. They've got a much better starting place than the people in the 1950s, who had to figure everything out from first principles.

macksting wrote:It sounds very much like you aren't wanting to agree with me even as you reiterate my points.

Sorry about that I get carried away sometimes and start sounding like a raving lunatic -->

The only people that could answer these questions with any authority would be Erick or Kevin. I guess I just like the idea of a frontier setting with what high-tech that's around to be salvaged or tinkered together.

It is a game after all, and there by the rules of "real life" do not apply in whole. What we look at as logically being needed to support such a setting in the "real world" may not be what is be needed in the "game world."

Take what you will from the descriptions in the books to instill a sense of entertainment and "coolness" to the setting as we portray it to our players in the games. But don't let to much detail distract you or your players from the fun.