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I don't know where people come up with stuff, but this is by far one of the more absurd aspects of the new RPG. I'm sorry, but there is no use sugarcoating this fact. Not only does it not make sense from a traditional military standpoint (Army units have been used in Amphibious Warfare since the time of the Roman Empire) its also not true in the Tv series.

As was seen in Robotech, The Army of the Southern Cross is a combined arms force capable of meeting a myriad of land and air challenges with whatever force package is necessary. In The Sentinels scripts (Book #2 specifically), Colonel Edwards is said to be a soldier in the Army of the Southern Cross, the ground forces of the REF (since the REF is a multi-service combat command ala the United State's Central Command). If that isn't enough, in Ghost Town it is clearly established by the Old Coots (Jesse, Frank, Roy and Shorty): 'Way back when we were soldiers, the Army issued us this stuff'. Furthermore, in Dark Finale, Scott Bernard remarks to Lancer 'Ya know, I get the feeling these Army flyboys are a little rusty'. If nothing else, those two pieces of dialogue from Robotech clearly establishes that the Army is a part of the REF's force structure, naturally one that is the Ground Forces. At NO TIME are Marines even mentioned. If they exist, they would solely be there for space-ops like boarding actions and fleet security.

Every single previous incarnation of The Sentinels either clearly states the ASC is one component of the REF Mission (novels, proposed Tv series) or is silent on the matter (comics, 1st edition RPG). EVERYTHING must conform to Robotech's continuity as it came first. The Army is there according to characters in the series. It SHOULD be there in this new RPG! WHY IS IT NOT?

So, in summary, you want those soldiers to be called "Army" and not "Marines?"

Jason Richards wrote:So, in summary, you want those soldiers to be called "Army" and not "Marines?"

In case you missed the definition:

sol·dier n.
1. One who serves in an army.

ma·rine n.
7. one of a class of naval troops serving both on shipboard and on land.

The Tv series says the soldiers of the REF are in the Army, not the Marines. This new edition is SUPPOSED to be following Robotech's continuity.

So your complaint is still that those military individuals should be called soldiers instead of marines?

Jason Richards wrote:So your complaint is still that those military individuals should be called soldiers instead of marines?

Thats what both Robotech and The Sentinels clearly and unequivocally say. Last time I checked, the RPG is supposed to be completely based on the former and at least partly on the latter.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:

Jason Richards wrote:So your complaint is still that those military individuals should be called soldiers instead of marines?

Thats what both Robotech and The Sentinels clearly and unequivocally say. Last time I checked, the RPG is supposed to be completely based on the former and at least partly on the latter.

I'm honestly just asking. I see where you're coming from, but it's just a label. It doesn't change anything to call them something else. Stats would be the same and everything. It just seems unusual that this would prompt a rant like you gave as it doesn't represent any complaint of substance.

One thing that has continuously bugged me with Robotech, is the lack of naval rankings. Even as far back as the Macross portion of the saga, there has been several officers with Navy ranks (i.e. Admiral Gloval, Commanders Hayes, Fokker, Hunter, among others).

Because many of the main characters used naval ranks, and there has been a history of the lack of naval ranks in the rpg, I really have no problem with the terms of 'army' and 'marines'. Considering that the USMC has been part of the USNavy since its inception, and the USAF was originally part of the USArmy, I personally would like a more accurate portrayal of military structure in the RPG.

Calm down, guys. It's meaningless in terms of the game stats, text, art, etc. I wouldn't ever knowingly call a real-life soldier a marine or vice versa.

Misfit KotLD wrote:

Jason Richards wrote:Calm down, guys. It's meaningless in terms of the game stats, text, art, etc. I wouldn't ever knowingly call a real-life soldier a marine or vice versa.

I'm calm. I just wanted to see you get a label shoved up your nose.

Honestly, I would think naval rank structure with a ground forces compliment of marines would make sense for a space navy, but I am using logic here...

I agree. On the second part, not the first.

Zerebus wrote:I think it would be cool if the Armies of the Southern Cross were somehow incorperated as the UEEF dedicated ground forces component to the Expeditionary Force.

I agree. Maybe we should start a petitn and send it in to Harmony Gold, or someting.

RSCF;

The Robotech Saga has been re-envisioned and ret-coned... by Tommy Yune and Harmony Gold. Any such changes that appear in any of the new line of Palladium books have been approved several times by those two powers; which is to say that we didn't make any changes or use any turns of phrase that did not meet the approval of the creators of Robotech.

So... they're marines now. Please adjust your preconceptions accordingly. If this continues to stick in your craw, please send your complaints to Harmony Gold, because the rest of us just work here.

Alternatively, you could become Rabid Phase World Fan, as both Carl Gleeba and myself are fastidiously dedicated to a single and plausible game-line continuity.

Braden Campbell wrote:So... they're marines now. Please adjust your preconceptions accordingly.

Has nothing to do with preconceptions. The Tv series says the ARMY is the ground forces component. By Harmony Gold's own rules, the Tv series came first it must be adhered to.

If this continues to stick in your craw, please send your complaints to Harmony Gold, because the rest of us just work here.

::sigh::

Fine. Its Tommy Yune's fault. I knew that to begin with, since the man never met a plot hole he didn't think was unimportant. However, it would have been nice if someone had maybe pointed out to him that the Marines is an incorrect appelation according to the Tv series. I would have, had I known that he told y'all it was Marines.

The concensus here seems to be that marines > army, so in any case it looks like a mark in the "positives" column.

Jason Richards wrote:The concensus here seems to be that marines > army, so in any case it looks like a mark in the "positives" column.

I'll reserve comment until CavScout and SgtAnjay weigh in, since they're both Army vets who had this discussion at length over at RDF HQ. Consensus, btw, doesn't mean diddily or squat. The Consensus used to say the Earth was flat. Doesn't make it true, or even remotely intelligent.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote: The Consensus used to say the Earth was flat. Doesn't make it true, or even remotely intelligent.

actually, the consensus since around 330 BC was that the earth was round. before then the shape was merely in debate, but most socratic scholars maintaining all heavenly bodies were spherical. nonsocratic's generally didn't care. the romans and later the church and islamic culture retained the works of the greeks, and thus knew for a fact that the earth was round.

the myth that medieval scholars beleived the earth to be flat entered western conciousness in the 19th century with The life and voyages of Christopher Columbus, a work of fiction written like an accurate biography. the bit about medieval people beleiving in a flat earth was intended to make them look ignorant and silly, part of the conflict between religion and science of the time.

I am an Army Vet, and I do see the difference in naming distinctions. I will be utilizing a unified armed forces and there will be no distinct branches within the REF.

There will also be a unified ranking structure with a slight modification for captains and commanders of a space vessel. On Earth there will be some differences, but mainly based on how I view the UEF and the different branches.

In either case - I find that I have to deal with way too many people who only want to play 'Marines' which is cool and fine, then they want them to have full beards - and that is where I draw the line. Scruff yes, beards no. Overall, I see it as overused. So yes, I rather have it very generic and let the GM's add the detail.

Y'all simply don't get it. The Army in this case refers to The Army of the Southern Cross. Now that Tommy has done the equivalent of turning water into wine, he can now slam the door shut on any future for Southern Cross. The new version of The Sentinels will no longer have Logans, Hovertanks, Flashclapper Hovercycles or any other piece of equipment used during Southern Cross because 'well, thats the ASC's stuff, not the REF'.

I guess I'm one from the other side of the isle.

Grew up in an army family, dad, uncles, aunts, grandfathers, cousins, everyone.

I consider the army better over all. The marines have a lot of hype but I'm more of an Airborne type of guy. In our family it's universally accepted that the marines are kinda like Pit bulls. They're big and scary and will bite your face but if you want something done other than biting the face off of anything except you, you go to the army. *Grins*

I'm not trying to insult any marines out there. PERSONALLY I've met a few cool marines that wern't caught up in the self promoting ultra aggressive mindset. They were great guys.

But no. Marines are NOT universally conidered better. They just have good PR campain.

I'll take Jump trained Rangers over Marines any day. but that's me.

~~


As other's have said using the term "army" in generic talk or "Marine" in specific isn't that big a deal in a GAME. If you like it better one way, do it that way.

~~

As for getting jumped or something for calling a Marine a solider, maybe on YOUR robotech planet, but here in the real world, 99% of them arn't going to say anything. 0.8% of them will just say "Marine" and the 0.2% might get their collective panties in a twist, but..

There's not THAT many marines, and more than0.2% of any population are nuts. Lol

Misfit KotLD wrote:You're objecting to beards on Marines? have you seen pictures of Marines from the 1800s? Some of them have beards to make Delwugor jealous.

I actually object to beards on all soldiers - why? Because of Chemical Warfare. You need to get those gas masks to seal, and you can't do that with a beard.

ok first off I dont see why their cant be the "AotSC" and Marines.

A} AotSC being geared more to being the ones who move in with gear after the beachead is established and doing the heavy pounding, and establishing the planetary defences, Marines doing the initial planetary assualt and "light special forces in bulk from space ships" work

B} In case you missed it R:TSC is mostly set AFTER Earth gets plastered Twice by the invid after the formation of the AotSC was established (bascialy leaving nothing but emtpy craters where the HQ and bases of the AotSC(technicaly 3 times if you count the events in TSC) the Evidence is that after all of that whats LEFT of the AotSC after 13 years of invid occupation is literaly wreckage, and museum peices, endless bickering among historians as to the compitency of individual leaders, a bad taste in their mouths over the memory of the Trator TR Edwards, and some surviving Vets like Dana and Louie.

Phalanx wrote:B is precisely the point I was going to make. As of TSC, there really is no Army of the Southern Cross. RSCF needs to save his breath for a Southern Cross book.

I actually appreciate what RSCF is doing for us fans of the other era's. In his zeal to get Southern Cross done correctly and true to the TV. He is by far making my favorite series more complete and accurate.

ok lets review

the AotSC get plastered by the Robotech Masters
then Get plastered Again by the invid who completly take over the earth
Then the Earth gets pastered one more time by the invid leaving the earth, and the colateral damage caused by the Earth Reclimation fleet
then EVERYONE got plasterd by the Hadonites
In the mean time the AotSC comander who was with the Expidition stabs the rest of the UEEF in the back

So in all probability, after 2044 whats left of the AotSC is probably currently everyone who did not make the cut for the Fleet Marines, and probably does not go by the name "AOTSC" but is probably closer to UEEF-Army or UEDF-Army because we saw under TR just how well "seperate but equal" worked out for them.

THE OFFICIAL Timeline is

2022 UEEF leaves earth, leaving the earth defended by the AotSC and the UEDF

2029-30 Robotech masters war
31-44 Eath defacto occupied by Invid
2044 After dealing with the Trator TR Edwards, (who was comander of the AotSC units assigned to go with the UEEF) and other maters the UEEF finaly manages to get the invid off the planet, while getting a large chuck of its fleet blown up by their so called alies

Nelzie wrote: There is absolutely no reason on Earth to be as serious as you are about this topic to the point that it interrupts the ability to have fun with the material.

Post of the year.

you know, i don't see the big deal. so HG has added a new branch of troops to the earth forces?

have you considered that the reflex point assualt could have had surviving ASC troops in expiditionary force produce mecha, as well as the naval aviators from the warships and marines from the onboard ground forces involved? army, marines, navy.

sorta like in most war's the US has had in modern times, where the air force clears the skies, the marines secure a beachhead, the army drives inland with marine support, and the navy provide cover fire and air support?

no one group replaces the others, they all work together to achieve the goal. the navy and airforce serve to lug around the troops and tanks both the army and marines. the navy flies air support missions alongside both marine and air force attack planes, under cover of navy, marine, and air force fighters. and so on.


ASC army units would need to be loaded onto navy ships to get them around, and marine units would be operating right alongside all the way from the ships to the victory parades. and naval aviation would fly cover from start to finish.

Didn't the Southern Cross book refer to the Tactical Corps as being like the Marines?

In any case, as much as I am excited about all the excitment over the new book, please remember, that this book is intended to fall within Harmony Gold's vision of the series (in which now the REF shipbaord ground forces are reffered to as Marines) and to be fun for the player (who can call them whatever the heck he likes. I think I will call them Strawberry Pudding Pops).

If something in the book isn't up to what you like, edit it to your satisfaction. If you are concerned that HG made a mistake, please let them know so we can get it all corrected.

they arent Called Marines in the Show.

No they aren't.

But HG decided they should be in the RPG - perhaps future titles will explain why and give usa a greater picture of the overal UEF forces and how the Marines and the Army co-operate.



*Gives the authors of the future books a long, hard stare*

Colonel Wolfe wrote:they arent Called Marines in the Show.

There is no Shadow Chronicles show.

The Earth Reclimation Forces are almost wholly seperate from the RDF, ASC, and the Freedom Fighters left on Earth after the Invid Invasion.

Also, the canonical status of the Sentinels as we know/knew it appears to now be in doubt. So no use citing it.

~ Josh

In the show they were simply 'Robotech Expeditionary Force', 'troopers', or 'soldiers'...
The REF 's organmization may be decidedly fluid, but I just can't see the diehard old warhorses of the old U.S. Marine Corps and other old-world organizations NOT laying down, but insisting that there would be some version of the Corps in the new line of battle when the RDF(and later the REF) was formed..
"Oh sure, you'll call them something else," grunts the old general around his stoggie."But they'll ALWAYS be MARINES."

The inertia of tradition...Even if you replace the dress sabers with vibrosabers...

if someone can point me to them being refered to as Marines in the Movie, I'll gladly be proven wrong.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:if someone can point me to them being refered to as Marines in the Movie, I'll gladly be proven wrong.

Ground Forces didn't appear in the movie.

Doesn't matter though as HG approved of everything in the book, which is exactly the same as them being referred to as such in the movie.

~ Josh

Josh Sinsapaugh wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:if someone can point me to them being refered to as Marines in the Movie, I'll gladly be proven wrong.

Ground Forces didn't appear in the movie.

Doesn't matter though as HG approved of everything in the book, which is exactly the same as them being referred to as such in the movie.

~ Josh

but they are never refered to as such in the movie.

And?

The movie is canon, approved and created by HG.

The RPG is canon, approved and created via a liscencee of HG.

~ Josh

Josh Sinsapaugh wrote:And?

The movie is canon, approved and created by HG.

The RPG is canon, approved and created via a liscencee of HG.

~ Josh

but i'm not talking about the RPG.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

Josh Sinsapaugh wrote:And?

The movie is canon, approved and created by HG.

The RPG is canon, approved and created via a liscencee of HG.

~ Josh

but i'm not talking about the RPG.

This thread is, including the OP.

~ Josh

Actually you are. You are pointing out they shouldnb't be called that in the RPG because they weren't called that in the movie.


What actually were they called in the Shadow Chronicles movie?

Jefffar wrote:Actually you are. You are pointing out they shouldnb't be called that in the RPG because they weren't called that in the movie.


What actually were they called in the Shadow Chronicles movie?

Ground Forces didn't appear in the movie.

~ Josh

Jefffar wrote:Actually you are. You are pointing out they shouldnb't be called that in the RPG because they weren't called that in the movie.


What actually were they called in the Shadow Chronicles movie?

umm, where did I say anything about the RPG.
I aid they werent Called Marines in the Show or Movie, nothing about an RPG.
Since they are unnamed in the Movie, the Defualt name should be what was used in the Show.
and Marine was never used in the show.
besides the RPG, I dont know of anywhere where Marine is used in Robotech. (here's my First refrence to the RPG)
if the HG wants them to be called that in the RPG, it dosent affect what was Aired in the Origonal 85 episodes of the Show, where Ground Forces did appear.
I'm not saying the RPG is wrong, I'm just saying the Movie never refers to them as Marines.

Dewitt667 wrote:Seeing how the Southern Cross has been handled in the past and peoples comments about it. I can see why RSCF would have a bone to pick about it especially without any background history on the REF's Marines.

Thank you Dewitt667, you, Tiree and Colonel Wolfe understand why I'm so honked off about this.

Zerebus wrote:I can see why you're honked off, too, Rabid, but my problem is that I'm too easygoing about things like this. Or too optomistic. Maybe naive. Pick one?

Hehe, you're too nice, like NovaStar.

RSCF, I understand why you're concerned.

I think you may be making a mountain out of a molehill in the matter, but if you want to spend all that time and energy on it, go ahead.

The UEEF didn't appear in any canonical show, except for the very end of the New Generation. Even then, the ending of the New Generation was retconned by Shadow Chronicles.

The status of the Sentinels within the continuity is skewed and unclear.

Also, from a practical standpoint calling UEEF Ground Forces "Marines" makes most sense as the UEEF is technically a naval force.

~ Josh

but a "practical standpoint" that isnt supported by Dialog or images in the Movie or show.
I'm just saying, the Name is fine for the RPG, but its not supported for the Show/Movie.
Sentinels Contuniuty is updated by the Prelude Comics.
if anyone has them, maybe the names for the Gound forces in the Prelude comics series is given.
a Name is just a Name.
if HG wants them to be "Flower Girls" in the RPG, thats what the RPg calls them, and when the next Movie comes out, maybe Hg will keep the same names used in the RPG.

Zerebus wrote:Oh wait, he reads this forum...

And he can also do something like I just did.

and I dont think he will be fooled by your lil "eep" anymore than the rest of us

Just remember, YOU are the GM.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:but a "practical standpoint" that isnt supported by Dialog or images in the Movie or show.
I'm just saying, the Name is fine for the RPG, but its not supported for the Show/Movie.
Sentinels Contuniuty is updated by the Prelude Comics.
if anyone has them, maybe the names for the Gound forces in the Prelude comics series is given.
a Name is just a Name.
if HG wants them to be "Flower Girls" in the RPG, thats what the RPg calls them, and when the next Movie comes out, maybe Hg will keep the same names used in the RPG.

From a practical standpoint, calling them "Marines" is technicaly accurate, their a (star)ship based Infantry core combat force that specialises in (Star)ship to starship defense and atack and (star)ship to land infantry and (power)armor assualt that is part of the (Space)Navys comand structure

Josh Sinsapaugh wrote:Also, from a practical standpoint calling UEEF Ground Forces "Marines" makes most sense as the UEEF is technically a naval force.

Umm, excuse me, the UEEF is a multi-service combat command, NOT a service branch. The fact there are space naval units doesn't automatically make it a 'Space Navy'. Besides, the US Army is perfectly capable of performing amphibious operations. Does that make them Marines? Are you saying the Army's 75th Ranger Regiment (descended from the Rangers of WWII), 1st, 3rd and 29th Infantry Division's are all 'Marines' now that they served once on Navy ships? How about the 9th Infantry Division in Vietnam that served on Navy boats in the Mekong Delta, are they Marines?

Zerebus wrote:

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:Umm, excuse me, the UEEF is a multi-service combat command

Excellent! So there's room for both an Army AND a Marine Corps, right?

Sound's about right to me.

I'm looking forward to fture groups detailing ow the command is organized.

*glares yet again at the future authors*

Drakenred®™© wrote:From a practical standpoint, calling them "Marines" is technicaly accurate, their a (star)ship based Infantry core combat force that specialises in (Star)ship to starship defense and atack and (star)ship to land infantry and (power)armor assualt that is part of the (Space)Navys comand structure

all i'm saying is they arent called that in the Movie/Show.
http://www.robotech.com/infopedia/faq/viewexpcat.php?categoryid=5

Q: What is the definitive source of events in the Robotech universe when discrepancies arise in continuity?
A: The original television series is the primary source of story continuity for the Robotech universe.... All future works are based upon the core continuity presented in the original series,.... overall continuity with the television episodes remaining the final word.

thats from Robotech.com's FAQpages

Zerebus wrote:

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:Umm, excuse me, the UEEF is a multi-service combat command

Excellent! So there's room for both an Army AND a Marine Corps, right?

I always thought Dennis Brown's Cosmic Units were 'Space Marines', trained in space boarding actions (something the Logan in the OSM is supposed to excel at) so they can pilot Logans, Ajax (as shown in the Tv series) and probably the Fenris Aerial Powered Armor. The 15th ATAC joins them in a special joint task force called the Armored Tactical Space Corps (Hovertanks in space, per dialogue in The Hunters) to invade and disrupt the Masters city-ships during the 2nd Robotech War.

So Wolfe, what are the forces that assaulted Invid occupied Earth at the end of New Generation called in the episodes they appeared?

We're referring to the ones in the final asssault, not the troops already on the ground - since it's the troops from this assault that TSC seems to be dealing with.