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I like them, though I'd like some clarification on "cowboy" skills for those of us without easy access to the Rifts Game Masters Guide (or as my roommate calls his, the "Big Book of Rifts'ness").

What are the odd of us getting a Backgrounds and Apprenticeships sticky? I have a few of my own I'd like to stash in a convenient place. Though I suppose we could just dump them in the "Misc Mutant Stuff" sticky.

i'd keep the Didjeridoo as a skill, it's a unique instrument and learning to play it right and make the right kind of music would require a different set of knowledge than a normal woodwind instrument.

i'd turn Jungle Survival into a knowledge skill (Lore: Jungle), which would give a bonus to Wilderness survival in a jungle (say, +10%).

Songlines could be done the same way (Lore: Songlines), providing a bonus to navigation, trapping, and wilderness survival when in austrialia (call +5% to each). even if you ignore the supernatural aspect, the songs still have a non-supernatural knowledge/memory-recall benefit to those who know how to use them. plus it represents cultural knowledge.

Aboriginal Medicine: i'd leave as is. while some of it could be covered by existing medical skills, the Aboriginal skill also represents the rituals and knowledge of the Aboriginal people in relation to it. so it does deserve to be seperate.

Pilot Commercial Vehicles: The Road Hogs skill is covered by Construction & Farming Equipment in AtB2.
Pilot Heavy Machinery: The Road Hogs skill is covered by Construction & Farming Equipment in AtB2.

since IIRC these RH skills were not for contruction and farming equipment, why? why not merely use Pilot: truck, Pilot: automobile, and so on? it may be more specific, but you get the same effect.

Steam Mechanics: The Mutants in Avalon skill is covered by Basic Mechanics in AtB2.

i disagree. the operation and repair of steam engines is very much a specialized field, and much too complex to fall under "basic mechanics". steam mechanics should be seen as an equivilent to the skills of Automobile mechanics or Robot mechanics.

Thyfur wrote:Last for Steam Mechanics. My brother-in-law used to complain all the time about foreign make cars over American make vehicles. How this or that was different. I admit I know nothing about Steam Mechanics, and maybe another Mechanic skills would be useful. But my goal in my games it not to have 1000 skills, but only 100 if you get my drift.

it's not an issue of "make or model", its an issue of actual mechanics. a steam engine is built in a very specific way. you have ot have a firm grasp of the design and principles of the engine ot do repairs. 'basic mechanics' doesn't give you this, much like basic mechanics doesn't cover how a car engine works or how to repair a turbojet.

basic mechanics would allow you to do gross repairs (replacing damaged parts with spares, for example), but anything specific would require specialized knowledge. like damage to the valves or flywheel, or making adhoc replacement parts. and if your using a steam turbine engines, and not a recipricating engine you'd need even more specialized knowledge of how steam engines work.

a person who works on cars will have the knowledge to work on any car. all the mechanics are basically the same. the different makes and models are merely laid out differently or use different/shaped sized parts.

a programming or computer use skill would be assumed to have enough knowledge to use the different programs/computers/languages that they could operate sufficently well.


in any case, things like repairing a german car in an american garage or hacking on a mac when your used to Windows are best represented by skill penalties and not completely new skills.

a certain amount of Abstraction is required in games. for programming, the GM or players should just decide which programming languages or computers the computer Skills represent, and apply the penalties for working with non-standard or alien technologies as needed.


back on the topic of steam mechanics though, i disagree with you on the basis that basic mechanics is defined (on pg. 57 of ATB2) as:

"This is a Rudimentary understanding of how machinery operates. This person can repair and maintain simple mechanisms and basic motorcycles and automobiles"
it then goes on to apply a -15% for working on trucks, a -40% penalty for working on military vehicles and boats, and a -70% for working on aircraft, robots, industrial turbines, engines, and generators.


a steam engine is not a 'simple mechanism'. the only thing simple about it is the boiler, but the actual motive part of the engine is fairly complicated, even in the most basic form, much less the efficent models.

it is an engine, which by the basic mechanics skill means a massive -70% penalty. you'd have to be at least 8th level to have the basic 10% chance of doing it right. and closer to 15th level to actually be able to repair it consistantly.

Thyfur wrote:Naw, the apprenticeships and backgrounds are for the AtB setting as written but updated. As none of the backgrounds or apprenticeships conflict too much with what I am doing so far. The last I played with this campaign setting was before AtB2, or at before I bought it. I have yet to update anything I specifically wrote for the setting. I wanted to update the books as much as possible before I updated my personal material. Once I get my backgrounds written up I am sure it will make more sense I guess. Again for the most part the original setting locations do exist as written (other than Free Cattle is nothing more than a collect of tribes coexisting with other tribes on the great plains and EoH with much reduce power base).

I wanted to get the backgrounds out of way due to the multiple posts I keep seeing on them, and because I wanted a better idea of how Road Hogs and Cardinia would fit into my world. My backgrounds for my campaign will be more primative in outlook. I will still have Villagers, and Border Area types but they will be lacking in Literacy, Mechanics and other 'hi-tech' skills. For those that wnat to use them they would be good for those areas lacking in technology.

part of the reason people have gotten so annoyed at the stuff you've posted here is that we were expecting merely updates to the old into the new, and not houseruled ones designed to fit your specific variant setting.
you really should begin these threads with "these are the versions i'm using in my games, and i've altered them to fit my own perspective on the setting", or some disclaimer along those lines. it'll avoid alot of misunderstandings and arguements.

thyfur, i'd like to apologise. i got the impression you had changed the skill list before you converted the classes. i should have read the classes skill selections closer.