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While the game can (and often is) played that way, i've never thought of it like that. To me it's always been more like... i dunno, the The Island of Doctor Moreau, or uh... Red Dwarf... neither of which gets anywhere near what "furry" means to me.

When i picture AtB characters i'm usually thinkin : This not

This

acreRake wrote:When i picture AtB characters i'm usually thinkin : This

LMAO!

I used to ask the same question, but now I feel AtB and TMNT are more of a hardcore antro/sci-fi game and don't think they would really be considered "Furry".

The way I see it:

Toons are to Animation as Comics are to Graphic Novels and Furry is to Anthropomorphic

If that makes sense to you, you'll understand my take on the Furriness of TMNT/AtB.

from wikipedia:

Furry fandom is a fandom devoted to anthropomorphic animal characters. Since the 1980s, the term furries has come to refer to such characters.

Fictional work celebrated by furry fandom typically attributes high-level intelligence, human facial expressions and anatomy, speech, bipedalism, clothing, or other attributes to otherwise animal characters. Work in any medium that includes such characters may be considered part of the furry genre, although they are most often seen in comics, cartoons, animated films, allegorical novels, and video games.

and

Anthropomorphism is the attribution of uniquely human characteristics to non-human creatures and beings, natural and supernatural phenomena, material states and objects or abstract concepts. Subjects for anthropomorphism commonly include animals depicted as creatures with human motivation able to reason and converse, forces of nature such as winds or the sun, components in games, unseen or unknown sources of chance, etc. Almost anything can be subject to anthropomorphism. The term derives from a combination of Greek ἄνθρωπος (anthrōpos), human and μορφή (morphē), shape or form.

Humans seem to have an innate capacity to project human characteristics in this way. Evidence from art and artefacts suggests it is a long-held propensity that can be dated back to earliest times. It is strongly associated with the art of storytelling where it also appears to have ancient roots. Most cultures possess a long-standing fable tradition with anthropomorphised animals as characters that can stand as commonly recognised types of human behaviour. The use of such literature to draw moral conclusions can be highly complex.[1]

ATB fits the definition of the first. the second is merely point out that "anthropomorphic" has nothing do do with shape, and everything to do with qualities. Simba from the lion king is just as anthropomorphic as robin hood from the 1973 film of the same name.
Aesop could be considered the first furry, in that way.

furry does not require the entire cast to be animals, nor does it require any special situations or circumstances. it merely requires that the main focus be on talking, feeling animals.


basically, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, don't go round saying it's a goose...

glitterboy2098 wrote:from wikipedia:

Furry fandom is a fandom devoted to anthropomorphic animal characters.

Yeah Wikipedia! 'K the article that is the cited as the source of that statement actually says:

Anthropomorphism -- also known as "furry fandom" -- is an artistic and literary genre that celebrates the humanization of animals, specifically in cartoons and comics.

In other words: these people are using the word "Anthropomorphism" in a different way than

Anthropomorphism is the attribution of uniquely human characteristics to non-human creatures and beings, natural and supernatural phenomena, material states and objects or abstract concepts. ...etc

But just because people use one word to describe two things doesn't make those two things the same.

Anyway, it's just semantics. You are saying that AtB is Anthropomorphic, no one could argue with that. We're saying Anthropomorphic≠furry. Thats all.

could you please provide a source for your first quote?

as for your second statement, when the furs state that anthropomorphic animals = furry, i think wether ATB counts or not is settled.

or perhaps you'd prefer to hear their own words?

The word furry has several meanings, dependent on the context in which it is used. Predominantly, it pertains to an interest in anthropomorphic animals and/or mythological or imaginary creatures which possess human or superhuman capabilities. The plural form of furry in all its contexts is furs or furries; the subjects of furry interest are also known as furries.

and i used wikipedia because most dictionaries don't cover the terms and names of subcultures. and it agreed with all the furry specific sites i could find that tried to describe their particular subculture.

by the way, obviously enough furs consider Atb to be "furry enough" to give it it's own page on wikifur.

macksting wrote:
So. If Anthropomorphic≠furry, not everything anthropomorphic is furry and therefore not all anothropomorphized figures or works can be cited.
If Anthropomorphic=furry, AtB qualifies, as does Mickey Mouse. More obviously, so do Tom & Jerry. Question, though. Do kami, such as Japanese folklore's kitsune?

as per WikiFur:
"The word furry has several meanings, dependent on the context in which it is used. Predominantly, it pertains to an interest in anthropomorphic animals and/or mythological or imaginary creatures which possess human or superhuman capabilities. The plural form of furry in all its contexts is furs or furries; the subjects of furry interest are also known as furries. "

so, by the standards of the Furry subculture, they do count.

as for Anthropomorphic=furry:

From within the fandom, anything classified as an anthropomorphic animal and/or creature could be called a furry. That could be anything from Scooby Doo to various sports mascots to Omaha the Cat Dancer. Since mainstream characters are generally not created with furries in mind, the furry context is presumed by most outsiders to not be present despite subcultural interest.

again, this is their own standard. and last i checked, subcultures usually have to define for themselves exactly what qualifies as their own subculture. a steampunker isn't going to let a non-steampunker define what is and isn't steampunk, for example. it is up to themselves to define it, and then elucidate that definition to outsiders who seek an understanding of the subculture.

Lets think of it this way;

Would "Furries", who like things BECAUSE there's anthro animals in them, enjoy AtB? Sure, you bet.

Would people who don't particulary care about anthro animals one way or the other find things they'd enjoy in AtB? Most deffinatly. I consider myself in this group.

Would people who HATE anthro animals for whatever reason enjoy Atb? Probably not (maybe if they ran a campaign where all the players were from the EoH or something).

For example, one of my favorite web comics is one called The Whiteboard. Furries feel it's a furry comic since the major characters are anthro animals. I like it because it's about things I enjoy; paintball, working in a paintball shop (I help out at the local shop a couple nights a week), modifying paintball gear, making wacky devices and inventions, Mt. Dew, and blowing things up. The characters could have been talking vegatables and I'd enjoy it just as much.

macksting wrote:My only principle complaint about this definition of furry is that it's uselessly large and inclusive.

gamer:

Historically, the term "gamer" usually referred to someone who played role-playing games or wargames. More recently, however, the term has grown to include players of video games. While the term nominally includes those who do not necessarily consider themselves to be gamers (i.e., casual gamers)[1], it is commonly used to identify those who spend much of their leisure time playing or learning about games.

my only complaint about this definition is it's uselessly large and inclusive...


remember we're talking about a subculture. the definition of the subculture needs to include all the elements that define it. so it will tend to be large and inclusive. within a subculture there tend to be unofficial classicifactions that help break up the different specific groups into more specific definitions.

for gamers, we have your roleplaying gamers, your computer gamers, your console gamers, your miniatures gamers, your board gamers, ect. and each of those are futher broken up into more and more specific groups as well.

by my point of view it actually just reinforces my arguement.

as i pointed out before, a subculture has to define itself. an outsider can't define it, because an outsider won't have the perspective to create a definition that is accurate. people have this idea that "accurate" means "exclusive", when in fact it means "includes only true facts" and thus is as expansive or constraining as required.

in the case of the furry community, AtB would fall under 'furry'. now would all furs like it? probably not. while it involves the charicteristics that make it 'furry', it involves other features, like the post-apocalyptic setting that are unrelated to the definition of 'furry', and thus may not be a common interest in the subculture. this does not make it 'un-furry', no more RIFTS' post-apoc setting make it less of a part of the gamer subculture.

things like AtB often overlap multiple subcultures in regards to interest. furry, scifi, gamer, post-apoc... it is not exclusively any one, but yet is all of them. it is a furry game, a scifi game, a post-apoc game...and with specific suppliments, you even get steampunk, space scifi, and others.

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/5818/citlevelsoffurrysi2.jpg

Quote:
Identifying oneself as a Furry is extremely loaded. It'd be nice if it just meant you happened to liked stories centered around animal characters. Sadly, the term "Furry fandom" has come to cover quite a lot of sub-subcultures, some of which are... decidedly odd.

Because of this, it's understandable that quite a few people who should be in this big tent don't consider themselves to be. For example, 99% of Cat Girl fans don't consider catgirls to be furry, even if they go well past the "10% cutoff". Most Werewolf: The Apocalypse players, especially the more hardcore ones, would get along great with just about any furry fan -- doubly so after s/he drew the W:TA player's character. And posting Monster girls on various online forums is just fine... until you post Werewolf-tan, when the riots begin.

In a very rough ascending order (a la the Geek Hierarchy - which isn't so kind to Furries) of weirdness and keeping in mind that individual people routinely occupy more than one spot and/or different spots over time, Furry Fandom includes:

* By far, most Furry Fans are people who, indeed, like fiction centered around animal characters (ie Redwall, The Secret of NIMH, and Watership Down) or animal-like characters (SWAT Kats, Disney's Robin Hood);
* Artists and writers whose works involve mostly animal and animal-like characters, who make up the second largest segment of Furry Fandom;
* Alternately, fans of people Shapeshifting into animals are pretty common;
* Cosplayers, who just dress up for fun;
* Those who study animal symbolism and totemism (seriously or as the latest New Agey fad - this is where things tend to start getting weird);
* People with an anthropomorphic animal fetish;
* "Otherkin"; a dedicatedly odd subculture made up of people who sense they may not be entirely human - that is to say, you're not just some kid reading TV Tropes. You may also be Brightwings Dragonwolfravendolphin! Seriously. Considered a bit nutty even by other furries.
* People with an anthropomorphic animal fetish who still think Gadget from Chip And Dale Rescue Rangers is a major hottie;
* People who produce Fetish Fuel for people who still think Gadget is a major hottie
* Otherkin who drop the other shoe by refusing to answer to their human names, ranting about how Humans Are Bastards, and (if they acknowledge that they are human at all) who seriously believe themselves to have been born as the wrong species;
* People who love stuffed animals (we really wish we were kidding) and erotic cosplayers. It pains us to have to emphasize the fact that this segment of the fandom is very, very small. Go figure, it has gotten the most attention; thank you, CSI and Something Awful.
* The CatMan (You are invited to look him up on The Other Wiki, but it will probably change your life.)

Unquote.

I'd kind of feel bad if anyone here thinks this this whole discussion isn't kind of ridiculous.

Personally, i've come to accept that Earth is Furry. Maybe someone could edit the poll to read: "does After the Bomb includes animals with any human characteristics?"

Misfit KotLD wrote:403'ed!

Serious? in which post... i'll try to fix my links...

Can we just agree that to some people it may be furry and to others it's just an anthropomorphic setting?

Arguing either side of the point is really not doing anything to help promote the game.

duck-foot wrote:

Rali wrote:The way I see it:

Toons are to Animation as Comics are to Graphic Novels and Furry is to Anthropomorphic

If that makes sense to you, you'll understand my take on the Furriness of TMNT/AtB.

im lost? say what

It's an apples and oranges argument. For example: Bugs Bunny vs. Akira, Donald Duck vs. Albedo, Furry Pirates vs. After the Bomb.


Actually, After the Bomb is more like a tomato. Some people say it's a vegetable, others say it's a fruit.

The fact is After the Bomb can be enjoyed by people of both genres. By arguing whether or not it's "Furry" all we do is give the game a stigma.

Also, would you call Set or Ra furry gods?

I was going through some of my comic collection and noticed that what seemed to differentiate a comic which referred to itself as "Furry" or "Anthropomorphic" was whether or not humans were present. Another factor seems to be the level of anthropomorphosis (talking animals vs. humanoid animals).

Sanguine Productions goes so far as to subtitle their games (Ironclaw, Albedo, and Jadeclaw) as Anthropomorphic Fantasy or Science-Fiction games.

Another thing to keep in mind is that "Furry" is technically a slang term that popped up to describe people who were fans or anthropomorphic characters. However, it's also become a [misused, IMHO] cutesy adjective to describe all things that are anthropomorphic in nature and thereby muddying the waters.

To the original question, "Would you consider ATB to be extremly furry?" I would say no, since there are so many possibilities in character creation. You could play a character from a talking cat, to a humanoid bunny, to a completely human looking pig.

What I think it really boils down to is that After the Bomb is an Anthropomorphic Science-Fiction Role Playing Game that can be enjoyed by those looking for an engaging post-apocalyptic sci-fi setting or those looking for a game where they can play a furry character.

You mean the one i posted earlier in the conversation?

acreRake wrote:http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/5818/citlevelsoffurrysi2.jpg

Also, i've gotten my copy of AtB back since i posted last... i think i might want to change my vote...

The only thing gained by slapping the furry label on AtB is that you alienate it from people who are uncomfortable playing "Furry" games.

There are those that can't handle anything but traditional fantasy races. Furry types, that is animals that either walk upright and can speak in languages humans can understand or just animals that can talk to more than just their own kind and especially humans, are what some consider an aberration or something that should never be done. snip.

I'll played so many different games that had furries it doesn't bother me.. I too would rather play a furry then another race/creature.....It's new/different

I know people who ban their kids from watching certain cartoons if it has anthropomorphic animals in them

macksting wrote:Nope. Not kidding.
Not directly related, but that has to be what it's about.

Yup, I rest my case, some people are ignorant

Yes, most

first of there are no big boobed cat girls and its not even anime.
i dont know. ATB just doesnt have the whole furry look to me. first of there are no big boobed cat girls and its not even anime. snip.

Well,then, you'll just have to put your artistic skills to the test

You can make anthro felines but I'm still not convinced that nekos are truly furries.

They are only partially furry

well i draw like a comic book artist the only problem is i have no computer programs for my art. if i did believe me. scantly clad big boobed cat girls would be all over the rifter.

It has furry anthromorphic talking animals..it's furry =P While both RIFTS & PFRPG has anthromorphic races they are not furry.Not all furry media is porno (just some of the best is =P ) LOL.This coming from a non-fetishist Furry fan (people in furry suits are not sexy .. but cat/fox girl cosplay chics are LOL ).

People alienated by stuff like that are probably going to be alienated from RPGs to begin with. "ew, naked fairies" from PF or "ew tentacle monsters" from Rifts. We're talking about a game that started with 'and other strangeness' in the title.

Exactly!!

(to those people).."go back to that hole you came out of, pull that rock back over you, and leave us to enjoy our gaming"