Computers, Interenet, Satelite,Cable, etc.

[Shadowfyr]

Ok i started thinking a little to logical lately but really dunno really where to start looking, But heres the obvious first, ok rifts came and ravaged earth, we know this and what not.

Years pass things happen, people push on and live and things advance. Power Armors come about, CS has facilities with tech everywhere. Free quebec and many other places around the whole world has tech out the A..

Now heres where my thoughts come in; Would/is there internet, i mean theres many computer skills and realative skills involving computers, but is there a type of internet in the WWW sense and not the INTRAnet sense?

Also planetary defense, do we have anything that protects the planet from space attacks... also Satelites: Do any continent/country/races/military have anything out there? And if so are/would they be hackable or usable like Google maps?

Just seems for like a futuristic world we kinda fell back primevally (sp?) to a time inbetween savages and complete access to things.

Now i may have to reread this later as its 3am where i am and im tired but just some thoughts to toss out there that kinda baffel me .. well at least at this moment they do.

[Dustin Fireblade]

The CS and other big tech nations like the NGR would have a intranet capability. I seem to recall it being mentioned somewhere that the CS has it, and perhaps the Triax/NGR 2 book will touch on it whenever it's released.

The Kittani in Atlantis are another likely source.


As far as planetary defense, the nations on the planet don't have the capability, with the exception of Atlantis. CHeck out Mutants in Orbit for details on what's going on up there.

[Talavar]

All the major tech-nations, and most city-states with the available technology seem to have a local computer network, but there's no world wide web.

There is a planetary defence of a sort, in the orbital kill-satellites and debris field that make space travel from Rifts Earth nearly impossible. They'd work just as well at hurting things coming from space. No nation has satellites, as the kill-satellites and debris field shred anything that attempts to leave the planet's surface.

[Shadowfyr]

So far this seems to make sense, im just curious if you can tell me what books to find these in so i can just read it.

[NMI]

Rifter #42 has some good information/ ideas on how communications/internet would/could work in Rifts.

[Kagashi]

Years pass things happen, people push on and live and things advance.

It took 300 years to get out of the post apocalypse atmosphere after the Rifts came. Hardly pushing on IMHO.

Power Armors come about,

PAs were around before the Rifts, many survived.

Would/is there internet, i mean theres many computer skills and realative skills involving computers, but is there a type of internet in the WWW sense and not the INTRAnet sense?

No. I can see a bunch of independent intranets, but no internet. I think some of the Chi Town books mention intranets and cell phone technology exists, but with limited range to CS big cities. I assume Triax, Japan, Atlantis, and parts of Russia would be the same.

Also planetary defense, do we have anything that protects the planet from space attacks...

Not that I know of.

also Satelites: Do any continent/country/races/military have anything out there? And if so are/would they be hackable or usable like Google maps?

Yes, but they are controlled by the space stations, not Earth based organizations. See Mutants in Orbit for more info. As for hacking into them, im sure thats a great adventure idea.

Just seems for like a futuristic world we kinda fell back primevally (sp?) to a time inbetween savages and complete access to things.

Yep, thats Rifts. Uber Tech side-by-side with primitive limitations.

[glitterboy2098]

Years pass things happen, people push on and live and things advance.

It took 300 years to get out of the post apocalypse atmosphere after the Rifts came. Hardly pushing on IMHO.

amnd the majority of the world is still stuck in a medieval/frontier level of technology and society. if you leave chi-town, a few miles out you'll hit wilderness, interspersed with CS run national farms or the occassional CS outpost. only after a few hundred miles of this will you hit another CS city. and if you go west, you won't hit another CS city. if you travel a thousand miles you'll hit the Colorado baronies, which are magically augmented frontier technology. and then you hit rugged wilderness. if you go east, you hit the FoM, and then rugged wilderness.
if you go south, you travel hundreds of miles past the wilderness city of El Dorado (still little more than a trading town of small size by modern standards), and then hundreds of miles of inhospitable wilderness.
if you go north, you reach the tech-cities of Iron Heart, which is Chi-town, just colder, and then thousands of miles of inhospitable wilderness.
and between all of these places are trackless wilderness.

places like Chi-town, like the NGR, like Columbia, are pockets of civilization and technology in a sea of low tech wilderness.

Would/is there internet, i mean theres many computer skills and realative skills involving computers, but is there a type of internet in the WWW sense and not the INTRAnet sense?

No. I can see a bunch of independent intranets, but no internet. I think some of the Chi Town books mention intranets and cell phone technology exists, but with limited range to CS big cities. I assume Triax, Japan, Atlantis, and parts of Russia would be the same.

yes. there is no inter-state communications beyond radio (using repeater stations) and hand carried messages. there are no inter-continental communications beyond hand carries messages, and those are hard to be sure they'll arrive.

global communications?

connecting high speed digital connections? within small areas maybe, and possibly at low levels using radio systems like todays military, but outside local use around the CS's fortress cities or major bases, i can't see it.

not to say such a thing can't occur in RIFTS. the NGR i could easily see implimenting such a set up, after all it's territory is much more stable and developed than the areas the CS claims. they could build and maintain the level of infrastructure needed.

Just seems for like a futuristic world we kinda fell back primevally (sp?) to a time inbetween savages and complete access to things.

Yep, thats Rifts. Uber Tech side-by-side with primitive limitations.

yep. farmer using horse drawn iron plows, but owning a Generator, TV, DVD player, and Laser rifle. the whole world turned third world...or worse.

[Temporalmage]

Here's a few thoughts.
CS and other high tech comunities have internal computer services, probably based off of radio waves inside thier respective areas. Low security stuff like, weather reports, news, even local intertainment programing would be broadcast over long range radio and be totally unsecured, or at best low secrurity. Hacking may be neccisary to gain access to this info, but probably not. Government/ military info would be encrypted as neccessary, and be bounced off the stratosphere, or even use laser communication if available, for long range communications. This is all standard stuff.
I don't believe computers would require wires in Rifts, at least those most adventurers would be using. Rather I think they'd use advanced BlueTooth type technology, where any electronic device would automaticaly "talk" to any other device. At least those within range. Take for example the one computer that ALL Pc's utilize: The cred-stick. Described in the books as a credit card shaped item, un-hackable, and can store vast ammounts of info on em. I think of em as mini-AI's. After all, they are sopposedly unhackable (which means even those with tele-mechanics couldn't alter the amounts on em), and there would have to be some system that would allow a person to use the credit stick in El-Paso, and then when they travle to Northern Gun have the correct amount in their account. If they weren't able to tell the banks computer in NG about the exchange in El Paso then somone would be able to get more than they actually had. If this wasnt' the case then it would open the door for forgery, teleporting mages, and a corruption of the banking system, which the books say isn't possible.

Power armor, robots, and all high tech vehicles would have computer systems. Systems as benign as ensureing the fusion reactor is running smoothly. To systems that help target and ID the enemy. These computers would occasionaly need to be hacked, programed, accessed. Especially if they were stolen, but even if you purchased a Samson from Northern Gun, your gonna want to replace the stock start up codes.

Energy weapons would probably have mini-computers to regulate such things as lens angles, heat distribution, power input/output, magnetic fields, etc. Even vibro-weapons would have a system to keep the field at optim vibration as the act of vibrating would possibly cause the field to become unstable over time.

A few ideas on the computers of Rifts.

[glitterboy2098]

actually i'd suspect most communities use hardwired communications likes (cable, phone wires, ect). just because they carry more bandwidth and enviromental conditions don't mess thme up much. WiFi is probably going ot be used much like it is today, as a way of letting more people use a single unsecured connection.
places like the inside of Chitown, or the intranet of the NGR, probably use fiber-optic cables.


for computers, i'd say the same thing. most peripherals will probably be using physical connections. (we have canon examples of this, the cyber-jack for instance). same reason as above. more bandwith and less prone to interfearance. i suspect it would be USB 6.0 or something.. however a WiFi type wireless connection is probably an option with many comps to allow people to connect to the above mentioned wifi spots.

bluetooth is a neat tech, but it is not entirely practical in a wilderness enviroment, and it requires manufacturing of pretty decent micro-radio systems and such of a good degree of quality. which i consider unlikely except in places like Chi-town or the NGR.



on cred sticks...it's not that they are unhackable, it's just that since they rely on a centralized banking computer, any attempt to artificially inflate and account or create a new account via modifying the card's info will generally be recognized, and the card blocked. to actually manipulate the system you'd need to hack the central computers that run the system, which would be protected by multiple layers of ICE barriers, teams of cybercop's, and very complex password codes. presumably there is ways of temporarily fooling the system (like for example taking a hacked Chi-town card and travelling to Lone star, and exploiting the lack of instant communications and co-ordination between the two branches the the CS bank), but even those would be temporary, if possible at all.

as for places outside the CS...they have their own banks and don't directly connect to the CS ones, you have to transfer funds, presumably with a security fee in case the bank is cheated, which the bank loans you "on good faith". it keeps a record of how much and from who, and sends those records to the CS via physical couriers to withdraw the amounts from the CS banks and complete the paperwork showing the amount was deleted from the CS bank and added to the [location] bank. thus making it legal. (easier to carry goods you can easily exchange for credits. like gold, gems, or so on. i bet bank bonds would be a popular method in the CS, made hard to counterfit by many of the same techniques we have today, plus some on the drawing boards.)

in places with no connection to the CS, like lazlo or the FoM cities, you'll either be out of luck or have to carry trade goods you can easily exchange for credits at either end. and i suspect many people end up dealing with black market brokers to get their CS credits changed to a local form they can use.


of course, in most of the RIFTS world, barter is going ot be the main form of exchange. just use the credit listings from the books to figure out equivilent exchanges and then roleplay things to try and get better or worse deals. just keep in mind that items useful to the person doing the trade will be worth more than book price (for example, horses will be worth more than book price to a farmer, gems to a technowizard, ect.) likewise items hard to comeby will be useful in bartr. a container of coffee or tea will likely get you much more from a farmer than a city dweller, since the farmer is less likely to be able to obtain it normally.

[Fyrpower]

You also forgot that there maybe some form of magical TW ley line Internet, now that would be interesting.

"Mystnet - Connecting Magical communities across the planet"

[Shadowfyr]

You also forgot that there maybe some form of magical TW ley line Internet, now that would be interesting.

"Mystnet - Connecting Magical communities across the planet"

This would be interesting. lol

To Glitterboy2098: I know nothing is canon about it but to me that way of thinking of the credstick seems almost like a straight on description of a Credit Card + Bank combo. I kinda like Temporalmage's idea that the cred'stick is an unhackable account on its own seems like a feasable idea. To me that description would fit to have credits available to most towns you go to so everything wouldnt seem like using a third world trade system.

Kinda adding to it, for people to check a cred stick could almost be as simple as going to a machine that would/could resemble an ATM but really just lets you know how much is remaining. And with something like this is wouldnt be to hard to have exist in magic towns either.

[Temporalmage]

For cred-sticks I keep in mind the differant organizations that utilize them. The CS, NG, manistique, Lazlo/ New Lazlo, and the Black market to name the big ones. And all have thier own system. But the one that has the biggest potential for abuse, and thus would have to be the most secure, is the Black market. They deal with everyone, and have no central place hooked up to any other place. They couldn't be linked to any other black market buisness, especially in places like the burbs, as the CS could use the link to track all black market buisnesses and eradicate them all. Yet Black market credits are accepted at all black market buisnesses. The only way to succed in keeping an accurate account of all the transactions is if there was a mini-AI in each cred-stick that automatically kept track of all account activities internally, and then broadcast these activities when the cred stick was within range of another compatable system, similar to Bluetooth.

Advantages of this system is that you can't hack an AI, even with tele-mechanics.
It wouldn't require that any black market merchant be linked physically with any other black market merchant, yet they can still do buisness under the same banking system.
Card readers wouldn't be required, as the cards simply talk to each other to transfer funds.
The AI's would be very simple in function, and thus be cheap to mass produce. So cheap in fact that the Black market would give em away when you open the account.
Heck, having an AI in your credit stick would even allow for the illiterate to utilize them as you could physically talk to your credit stick and autherize transactions, and the credit stick could talk back, telling you your account ballance.

[glitterboy2098]

however we have seen AI's are not simple or cheap. and they require a level of hardware i find unlikely to be able to be fitted into a card. as for hacking an AI, sure you can do it. look at the Republican's and ARCHIE-3. it's just the more complicated the AI, the harder it is. a "simple AI" would be easy to hack/reprogram. it's the complicated self-aware stuff that is difficult.

and just having the records on the card? not likely. then it wouldn't be unhackable.

the central bank is the only way to ensure the whole "unhackable" aspect. the cards are just plastic. changing the info on the cards isn't going to help you.


this does bring issues regarding banks not regulalry connected to the CS ones, but keep in mind. most places in the domain of man do business with the CS or in CS territory. so they would have accounts in CS banks for their own use. so with a little delay, they can work with the CS banking network. places with no direct relations with the CS will still llikely have fronts able to do so, since they will have unofficial relations with the CS. this is not much different than banking today, just slower.

the black market groups will have accounts in local banks through fronts, which allow them to eventually get their money from the CS banks. this is probably part of the reason black market prices tend to be higher than listed, insurance in case a deal goes sour. this is no different than illegal business today.


sure, if you go from north america to say, japan, your money's no good. (just like today). hope you brought items you can pawn for local currency. if you go to the NGR or Columbia, your likely goign ot be able to exchange your CS credits for local ones, since those places have trade relations with the Cs and thus will be able to deal with the CS banks. if your using non-Cs credits, your probably out of luck.

[The Beast]

Now heres where my thoughts come in; Would/is there internet, i mean theres many computer skills and realative skills involving computers, but is there a type of internet in the WWW sense and not the INTRAnet sense?

In the bigger cities of the world there is likely something similar to the internet, but keep in mind most people can't read.

Also planetary defense, do we have anything that protects the planet from space attacks... also Satelites: Do any continent/country/races/military have anything out there? And if so are/would they be hackable or usable like Google maps?

No, there is nothing that protects the planet from orbital attack. Only Archie has managed to get access to one or two old satellites by using codes that A.R.C.H.I.E. 7 recognized and permitted. No other Earth nation has satellite access.

Just seems for like a futuristic world we kinda fell back primevally (sp?) to a time inbetween savages and complete access to things.

Near-exinction level events tend to do that.

[Shadowfyr]

Now heres where my thoughts come in; Would/is there internet, i mean theres many computer skills and realative skills involving computers, but is there a type of internet in the WWW sense and not the INTRAnet sense?

In the bigger cities of the world there is likely something similar to the internet, but keep in mind most people can't read.

True, But for the techno savvy, psi-techs, and hackers it'd be a glorious source of info.

the central bank is the only way to ensure the whole "unhackable" aspect. the cards are just plastic. changing the info on the cards isn't going to help you.

Sorry but isnt that just an assumption?

I mean for all we know cred sticks can look like anything any GM/Group comes up with, i mean for all we know it could look almost like a stick of RAM that just instead of memory, it holds money info.. ya know.
THough i think this is one thing that no one will be able to all agree on though. but eh.

[glitterboy2098]

the central bank is the only way to ensure the whole "unhackable" aspect. the cards are just plastic. changing the info on the cards isn't going to help you.

Sorry but isnt that just an assumption?

I mean for all we know cred sticks can look like anything any GM/Group comes up with, i mean for all we know it could look almost like a stick of RAM that just instead of memory, it holds money info.. ya know.
THough i think this is one thing that no one will be able to all agree on though. but eh.

no.

The currency of the modern, civilized world of Rifts Earth is "credits" -- electronic money kept and accounted for by a sophisticated, computerized banking system. Credits can be wire transferred at most CS cities, towns, burbs and outposts, or encoded on "debit cards," small sturdy, plastic cards very similar to pre-Rifts credit cards or telephone cards. Each time the "debit" card is used, the appropriate amount of credits is deducted from the card. When all the credits are used up, the card can be thrown away or saved and taken to an appropriate banking institution, money lender, or merchant to have credits in a savings account transferred onto the card for future use. Similarly, many businesses, banks, money lenders and even the Black Market and some travelling merchants can place additional credits into the card by transferring real and existing funds from their account into the card. This can be done as a loan, to make payments to an employee, to pay a bounty, and commonly when the bank, business or merchant purchases goods (gold, silver, furs, guns, magic items, ancient artifacts, etc.).

note that the system as described is similar to the "giftcard" system used by many businesses. there is no actual funds on the card itself, merely electronic records showing how much the card is supposedly worth. for places outside the CS banking network, this information is taken on good faith, as the cards themselves are worthless except for the records they hold. these records are modified as appropriate (which is why the cards can be 'hacked'), and the copies of the records go into the seller's records much like with normal money. again, outside the CS banking net these transactions are based on good faith. (the additioonal "security fees" are my own creation, but logical given the uncertainty and good business practices. they are the equivilent of collateral on a loan, a way to cover expenses created by bad transactions by charging extra in all the good ones...)

presumably any money transferred to a card is recorded by the bank as moved to a "in service account" which is not accessable by anyone without record of sale. thus the funds listed as being "on the card" are not in circulation while the virtual funds on the card is.

as i pointed out above:

Lazlo and New Lazlo, Tolkeen, and a handful of other independent kingdoms and cities have their own form of "credit" system, but only the joint efforts of Northern Gun and the Manistique Imperium have managed to establish a banking and credits/debit system that is accepted and used at many locations throughout the country. Typically, any seller of Northern Gun (NG) and Imperium (MI) weapons and equipment (both using the same credits system and debit cards) will usually accept NGMI debit cards redeemable for credits that can be used at these Upper Michigan kingdoms and with all NG and MI "authorized" gun shops,merchants and traders, as well as most 'Burbs. Furthermore, a handful of other independent towns, cities, merchants and traveling shows use or accept NGMI cards, including Silvereno, Bandito Arms, Lazlo, New Lazlo, Kingsdale, Ciudad Juarez, and scattered towns in the Pecos Empire, Lone Star, New West and Magic Zone.

groups with relations with the CS accept CS credits, everyone else relies on money exchangers and front companies.

and:

The third credits/debit system to rival the NGMI and challenge the CS Universal Credits is that of the Black Market. Their debit card is a simple, encoded black plastic card. It is good at virtually all Black Market operations scattered throughout the world, including the Coalition States, and accepted by all official Black Market agents, operatives and freelancers, as well as by most Juicers, Crazies, Gunslingers, Bounty Hunters, mercenaries, spies, smugglers, bandits and criminals of all kind. Black Credits, as this illegal, underground system of banking and debit cards are known, is welcome at Coalition Burbs, most Body-Chop-Shops, the Pecos Empire, Bandito Arms, and many (not all) merchants and businesses at Tolkeen, New Lazlo, Whykin, Kingsdale, Free Quebec, Lone Star and scattered towns in the New West.

the black market cards are likely just a subset of the normal banking nets, cards made and issued by the Bm using funds and bank connections of their front companies. remeber the black market is not a monolithic organization, but rather a loose collection of semi-independant organizations. the cards are going ot work on the same "good faith" system as the legit ones, only instead of just extra fee's your likely to have guys in suits with baseball bats out to break your kneecaps if you fruad them.


and before you start to say "but that just the cutting board", this was also all printed in WB14...

[Shadowfyr]

I'm just glad you pointed out which World book you found that in so i can actually find all of the info put together. But seriously i didnt realize / find that the entire cred system was actually as elaborate as previously stated.




(*also not really important but YAY this is my 300th post. lol )

[Temporalmage]

however we have seen AI's are not simple or cheap. and they require a level of hardware i find unlikely to be able to be fitted into a card. as for hacking an AI, sure you can do it. look at the Republican's and ARCHIE-3. it's just the more complicated the AI, the harder it is. a "simple AI" would be easy to hack/reprogram. it's the complicated self-aware stuff that is difficult.

and just having the records on the card? not likely. then it wouldn't be unhackable.

the central bank is the only way to ensure the whole "unhackable" aspect. the cards are just plastic. changing the info on the cards isn't going to help you.

AI's are only programing, which once done can be copied forever, hence simple and cheap. As for fitting on a card I have one word: Nano-technology. You know, the stuff that makes Juicers, crazies, glitterboys, and a whole host of other common things in Rifts possible.
As for un-hackable, alot of times keeping things simple is best. Besides, as I said before the cards would "talk" to any other compatable hardware/software in range. Perhaps the checks and ballances of the system is that all cards talk to each other, and when one of em gets hooked up to a central banking hub all of the cards that one has been near is dumped into the system where the bank computers check thier ballances with it's own totals. Anything that is eronious or don't check out is cancled.
I know this isn't by the book. These are only musings by yours truly. But if any of my players decide to hack thier credit sticks by using thier skills and such I'll have to have some logical excuse as to why they can't do it. As a Gm you only have three ways to handle PC's hacking the credit system. 1) Assign negatives and hope they don't roll an 01. 2) Allow them to do it and then lose one of the controls a Gm has over PC's: money. Or 3) have a logical reason why the PC's can't do it, give them this reason, and move on with the game.
I choose option 3 thank you very much. Keeps everything nice and tidy!

[glitterboy2098]

AI's are only programing, which once done can be copied forever, hence simple and cheap. As for fitting on a card I have one word: Nano-technology. You know, the stuff that makes Juicers, crazies, glitterboys, and a whole host of other common things in Rifts possible.

AI's are complicated programming, but it's not the software i was saying is complicated and expensive. it's the hardware. nanotechnology will not help you here, your constrained by computing and physical laws. an AI requires a fairly potent degree of processing power.

in modern times, we have reached the limit of electronic processors. processors cannot mount smaller transistors because then the gaps are small enough that electrons can jump them, which screws up the whole chip. you either have to make them bigger (modern high end ones are already the size of postage stamps), which has too many heat issues, or go the route we are today, with multi-core designs that have several processors running as one.

and things like quantum computers and optical computing have similar size limits, and require some pretty potent peripherals to make work.

As for un-hackable, alot of times keeping things simple is best. Besides, as I said before the cards would "talk" to any other compatable hardware/software in range. Perhaps the checks and ballances of the system is that all cards talk to each other, and when one of em gets hooked up to a central banking hub all of the cards that one has been near is dumped into the system where the bank computers check thier ballances with it's own totals. Anything that is eronious or don't check out is cancled.

which requires the cards to carry a copy of the entire network's records? good by account secrecy... and it takes an amount of data storage that is literally mind boggling. hundreds of thousands of users. millions of accounts. trillions of records....and thats just for Chi-town. and every bit requires a descrete physical storage peice. unless these cards are the size of city buses....i think not.

I know this isn't by the book. These are only musings by yours truly. But if any of my players decide to hack thier credit sticks by using thier skills and such I'll have to have some logical excuse as to why they can't do it. As a Gm you only have three ways to handle PC's hacking the credit system. 1) Assign negatives and hope they don't roll an 01. 2) Allow them to do it and then lose one of the controls a Gm has over PC's: money. Or 3) have a logical reason why the PC's can't do it, give them this reason, and move on with the game.
I choose option 3 thank you very much. Keeps everything nice and tidy!

or option 4: go by the book, with the verycal and thought out option, where the central bank is what keeps the cards secure since the cards themselves have no real or digital value, and modifing the cards has little effect on the entire system and merely makes it easy to block...thus making the modification of the cards possible but pointless...

[glitterboy2098]

well i did say "similar to". it was close enough to use giftcards as an example, although i figure there are a few differances involved. like how it connects to an ATM style banking system as well as the normal gift card set up, amking it a dual ATM/Gift card.


but your right, whipped4073. and very good points.

like with an monetary system, there are going ot be risks, as well as people out to exploit the loopholes. this is why most banks today have insurance, and why we have police and a legal system to catch and convict people who try.
at least Credits make more sense than say, bottlecaps...

[Temporalmage]

AI's are only programing, which once done can be copied forever, hence simple and cheap. As for fitting on a card I have one word: Nano-technology. You know, the stuff that makes Juicers, crazies, glitterboys, and a whole host of other common things in Rifts possible.

AI's are complicated programming, but it's not the software i was saying is complicated and expensive. it's the hardware. nanotechnology will not help you here, your constrained by computing and physical laws. an AI requires a fairly potent degree of processing power.

in modern times, we have reached the limit of electronic processors. processors cannot mount smaller transistors because then the gaps are small enough that electrons can jump them, which screws up the whole chip. you either have to make them bigger (modern high end ones are already the size of postage stamps), which has too many heat issues, or go the route we are today, with multi-core designs that have several processors running as one.

and things like quantum computers and optical computing have similar size limits, and require some pretty potent peripherals to make work.

Computers wern't even invented 100 years ago, imagine what we'll have in 300 years! Besides your trying to integrate logic into a roll playing game with particle beam rifles and Deaths Head transports shaped like flying bricks but capable of going mach??? LOL!!

As for un-hackable, alot of times keeping things simple is best. Besides, as I said before the cards would "talk" to any other compatable hardware/software in range. Perhaps the checks and ballances of the system is that all cards talk to each other, and when one of em gets hooked up to a central banking hub all of the cards that one has been near is dumped into the system where the bank computers check thier ballances with it's own totals. Anything that is eronious or don't check out is cancled.

which requires the cards to carry a copy of the entire network's records? good by account secrecy... and it takes an amount of data storage that is literally mind boggling. hundreds of thousands of users. millions of accounts. trillions of records....and thats just for Chi-town. and every bit requires a descrete physical storage peice. unless these cards are the size of city buses....i think not.

There is no account secrecy anyway. They two types of cards described in the books are "named" cards, personalized and utilized by the CS to track individual purchases; and Black market type cards that can be used by anyone who picks it up. Where's the secrecy at? Who would care (aside from the CS?)

I know this isn't by the book. These are only musings by yours truly. But if any of my players decide to hack thier credit sticks by using thier skills and such I'll have to have some logical excuse as to why they can't do it. As a Gm you only have three ways to handle PC's hacking the credit system. 1) Assign negatives and hope they don't roll an 01. 2) Allow them to do it and then lose one of the controls a Gm has over PC's: money. Or 3) have a logical reason why the PC's can't do it, give them this reason, and move on with the game.
I choose option 3 thank you very much. Keeps everything nice and tidy!

or option 4: go by the book, with the verycal and thought out option, where the central bank is what keeps the cards secure since the cards themselves have no real or digital value, and modifing the cards has little effect on the entire system and merely makes it easy to block...thus making the modification of the cards possible but pointless...

Because the central bank, wherever it is located, wouldnt be able to oversee any transactions as the banks would have limited conection, if any, to any place else. Hence the original topic on this page. Honestly, how would anyone be able to do buisness using credits when they have no way to conect to the bank?? Nowadays when you use your debitcard/ credit card/ or gift card; the buisness is connected to a central computer, which is connected to your bank, which checks the purchase price against your account ballance. If it checks out your fine. If the connection is down your screwed, even if you have the money.
Now how is that gonna work in Rifts when your trying to buy a new rifle off the back of some guys truck while in the Burbs of Chi-Town??? Ya think he's connected to a "central Bank"???? Do you think the Black market has ran a cable from Area 51, their headquarters, all the way to the Burbs of Chi-Town and beyond?? And nobody noticed?? (This would only happen if it was written in the Spirit West book, where nobody noticed indians at all either.)
The answer is no, they didn't, so there has to be a differant way, and one that would be un-hackable to keep the system from collapsing. my way is as good a way as any, and covers the bases in a simple, playable way that does not muck up the game.

[glitterboy2098]

Computers wern't even invented 100 years ago, imagine what we'll have in 300 years! Besides your trying to integrate logic into a roll playing game with particle beam rifles and Deaths Head transports shaped like flying bricks but capable of going mach??? LOL!!

physics are physics.

particle beam rifles follow physics. they might stretch things (like efficencies in the 80-90% range), but they follow known principles and technologies
same for DHT's. vectored thrust VTOl is a well known principle, it's just not used much because of fuel requirements for such powerful engines. Nuclear jets (again based on known principles and technology) have no fuel issues and generate better thrust than combustion turbojets.

computers are hamstrung by physics. advancements in processing power for mass will be through the development of entirely new principles and not refinement of existing principles and hardware.

and we have not had quantum computing, biocomputing, or optical computing in rifts. all systems in use post-rifts have been standard electronics.


"if your character does something or has something that involves the real world, you need to know how that works"

this also means you can't just claim whatever you want, you have to stay within what is reasonable. sometimes you do have to just make stuff up. like FTL in an interstellar space opera. but even then you need to know something about orbits, and inertia and relativity, so your FTL drive allows a good setting.

Because the central bank, wherever it is located, wouldnt be able to oversee any transactions as the banks would have limited conection, if any, to any place else. Hence the original topic on this page. Honestly, how would anyone be able to do buisness using credits when they have no way to conect to the bank?? Nowadays when you use your debitcard/ credit card/ or gift card; the buisness is connected to a central computer, which is connected to your bank, which checks the purchase price against your account ballance. If it checks out your fine. If the connection is down your screwed, even if you have the money.

so how was business done before the internet? oh right, they charged fees to cover thier "good faith" and kept records of transactions, and made contact with other banks on a regular basis to exchange information and balance the books.

same as had been done for several centuries.


RIFTS will be no different. banks will either take your money and make contact with your bank by some means, or just not take it. generally though, you'll have places like Northern Gun dealers everywhere who can serve as money changers who will take your credits.

Now how is that gonna work in Rifts when your trying to buy a new rifle off the back of some guys truck while in the Burbs of Chi-Town??? Ya think he's connected to a "central Bank"???? Do you think the Black market has ran a cable from Area 51, their headquarters, all the way to the Burbs of Chi-Town and beyond?? And nobody noticed?? (This would only happen if it was written in the Spirit West book, where nobody noticed indians at all either.)
The answer is no, they didn't, so there has to be a differant way, and one that would be un-hackable to keep the system from collapsing. my way is as good a way as any, and covers the bases in a simple, playable way that does not muck up the game.

if you truely are buying "off the back of the truck", that BM merchant won't accept credits anyway. just trade. if you made a deal with the BM, you transfer your credits to an innocent looking front company, which won't look suspicious on a bank statement. the BM then arranges a meeting for your goods. the transaction occurs through the local banking network.

just like how the black market has worked for centuries in real life.


BM cards are just ones issued that make that process easier.

[Temporalmage]

*SNIP*

You do what you want in your game. I'll do what I want in mine. I won't allow it, and I'll give a logical reason "in game" on why it's not possible.

[Temporalmage]

"if your character does something or has something that involves the real world, you need to know how that works"

That's the biggest BS line I've ever heard on a science fiction role playing game message board.
I've no idea how a fusion engine works, so I geuss my operator character can't work on one.
I only know basic anatomy, so my body fixer character can't suture wounds, set bones, or anything else.
I've never picked a pocket, so my theif character is usless.
I don't know how to swing a sword in battle, how to shoot an arrow without having the string slap my wrist painfully, or how to even load a rail gun.

Anyone know how to load a rail gun???? Anyone?? Apparently if ya don't know how it works, you can't have your character do anything with it.

Sarcasm aside, this is a role playing game. Emphasis on "Role playing", AND "game"!!! Were talking about a world, no scratch that, a megaverse filled with psionics, magic, uber robots, power armor, bionics, and the list goes on. And you wanna claim that tech has to stick to your version of physics???? That stuff in the game HAS to be based off of your version of FACTS????? Oh please...stop...can't breath!!!

[glitterboy2098]

"if your character does something or has something that involves the real world, you need to know how that works"

That's the biggest BS line I've ever heard on a science fiction role playing game message board.
I've no idea how a fusion engine works, so I geuss my operator character can't work on one.
I only know basic anatomy, so my body fixer character can't suture wounds, set bones, or anything else.
I've never picked a pocket, so my theif character is usless.
I don't know how to swing a sword in battle, how to shoot an arrow without having the string slap my wrist painfully, or how to even load a rail gun.

Anyone know how to load a rail gun???? Anyone?? Apparently if ya don't know how it works, you can't have your character do anything with it.

Sarcasm aside, this is a role playing game. Emphasis on "Role playing", AND "game"!!! Were talking about a world, no scratch that, a megaverse filled with psionics, magic, uber robots, power armor, bionics, and the list goes on. And you wanna claim that tech has to stick to your version of physics???? That stuff in the game HAS to be based off of your version of FACTS????? Oh please...stop...can't breath!!!

you might want ot actually read the article i linked to before you start putting your foot in your mouth.

you do not have to be a doctor to play a body-fixer. but if you don't at least learn a bit of biology and medical principles, you'll be about as convincing a body fixer as Dr. Zoidberg.
you don't have to be an expert on nuclear physics, mechics, or electronics to play an operator, but unless you familiarize yourself with the basics, you'll be about as convincing in the role as the professor in Gilligan's island.

how to load a railgun? that easy, slap a magazine into the stock, or attach the feed from the ammo drum.
but if your going to play a character able to repair a railgun, you'd better know the principle of how it works (charged rails and lorentz force). if your going to Gm a group with a railgun, you'd better undestand how it behaves (needs lots of power, has major recoil, ect.)


you talk about "roleplaying". guess what. knowing this stuff makes you better able to play a role. not knowing just means you roll the dice against your skill. which is roll-playing, and frankly rather boring.

if your going to pretend to walk the walk, better be able to pretend to talk the talk.


a game is just an interactive event with defined rules done for educational or entertainment purposes. a roleplaying game is a game in which participants take on the roles of characters within a set of rules, for entertainment.

RPG's that claim to be set within our world, or one similar to it, tend to be more fun if they appear consistant within their rulesets. and they appear realistic if they conform with what we already know. they do not have to rigidly follow reality, which usually makes for complicated and unfun games, but they have to seem real within context.

a gun will behave as a gun. their abilities might be stretched from time ot time (much like in action movies), but they follow the same principles as in real life. cars might be given extreme abilities, but those abilities usually conform to understood principles.

and things like magic or psionics still conform to laws of their own. true, we do not have such in real life. but within rifts, how magic works is fairly clearly defined, though not explained. you expend PPE, something happens to bring about a result. follows the principle of conservation of energy, although the exact mechanics of how it goes from PPE to fireball really don't matter.

saying "it's just a game" is a non-arguement. we must keep this stuff in mind because it is a game, and by doing so we can create a better, more fun game by keeping it beleivable.

[Temporalmage]

"if your character does something or has something that involves the real world, you need to know how that works"

That's the biggest BS line I've ever heard on a science fiction role playing game message board.
I've no idea how a fusion engine works, so I geuss my operator character can't work on one.
I only know basic anatomy, so my body fixer character can't suture wounds, set bones, or anything else.
I've never picked a pocket, so my theif character is usless.
I don't know how to swing a sword in battle, how to shoot an arrow without having the string slap my wrist painfully, or how to even load a rail gun.

Anyone know how to load a rail gun???? Anyone?? Apparently if ya don't know how it works, you can't have your character do anything with it.

Sarcasm aside, this is a role playing game. Emphasis on "Role playing", AND "game"!!! Were talking about a world, no scratch that, a megaverse filled with psionics, magic, uber robots, power armor, bionics, and the list goes on. And you wanna claim that tech has to stick to your version of physics???? That stuff in the game HAS to be based off of your version of FACTS????? Oh please...stop...can't breath!!!

you might want ot actually read the article i linked to before you start putting your foot in your mouth.

you do not have to be a doctor to play a body-fixer. but if you don't at least learn a bit of biology and medical principles, you'll be about as convincing a body fixer as Dr. Zoidberg.
you don't have to be an expert on nuclear physics, mechics, or electronics to play an operator, but unless you familiarize yourself with the basics, you'll be about as convincing in the role as the professor in Gilligan's island.

how to load a railgun? that easy, slap a magazine into the stock, or attach the feed from the ammo drum.
but if your going to play a character able to repair a railgun, you'd better know the principle of how it works (charged rails and lorentz force). if your going to Gm a group with a railgun, you'd better undestand how it behaves (needs lots of power, has major recoil, ect.)


you talk about "roleplaying". guess what. knowing this stuff makes you better able to play a role. not knowing just means you roll the dice against your skill. which is roll-playing, and frankly rather boring.

if your going to pretend to walk the walk, better be able to pretend to talk the talk.


a game is just an interactive event with defined rules done for educational or entertainment purposes. a roleplaying game is a game in which participants take on the roles of characters within a set of rules, for entertainment.

RPG's that claim to be set within our world, or one similar to it, tend to be more fun if they appear consistant within their rulesets. and they appear realistic if they conform with what we already know. they do not have to rigidly follow reality, which usually makes for complicated and unfun games, but they have to seem real within context.

a gun will behave as a gun. their abilities might be stretched from time ot time (much like in action movies), but they follow the same principles as in real life. cars might be given extreme abilities, but those abilities usually conform to understood principles.

and things like magic or psionics still conform to laws of their own. true, we do not have such in real life. but within rifts, how magic works is fairly clearly defined, though not explained. you expend PPE, something happens to bring about a result. follows the principle of conservation of energy, although the exact mechanics of how it goes from PPE to fireball really don't matter.

saying "it's just a game" is a non-arguement. we must keep this stuff in mind because it is a game, and by doing so we can create a better, more fun game by keeping it beleivable.

I skimed the article, no foot in mouth for me. Now for a true story: I'm an ex-Marine and know a thing or three about firearms. A few years ago a good friend was playing a Hardware Weapons character in a Hero's game, and of course wanted to build a cool custom gun. He described the end result he wanted, and as we were discussing it I'd ask technical questions of how he would accomplish it. After about 10 minutes or so of discussion with me trying to explain the finer differances between differant modern firearms fireing actions, he looked at me and said "I don't know how this would work, but my character does! I'm not trying to build one in my garage, my character is!" When he said that I realized that he was right. As the Gm at the time, I'd wasted 10 minutes trying to teach him how to be a custom gunsmith, and all I accomplished was wasting 10 minutes of oxygen and game time. Role playing, in my opinion, is breaking from reality. Being able to be somthing your not in real life, like a dragon or an elf or an operator. Being able to do things that you can't do in real life, like being a hero that saves a village, or raping and destroying. Without haveing any consequences. I'm a master carpenter in real life, but I don't wanna play one in a game. What would be the point? my wifes a nurse, know what her fav character to play is? A fem fatale assasion. Pretty much the exact opposite. That's role playing. This isn't an acting class, there is no grading system, no Oscar awards. The only tangable reward is having fun. And if I told my group that they needed to do research on their characters abilities in order to play those characters, it wouldn't be fun anymore. It would be like school, with homework. Everyone that I know who roleplays does it to get a break from the hum-drum realitys of real life, not to embrace that reality with learning things that they have no real need or desire to know. How does a hovercycle work? Well I can think of several WAYS one could be accomplished. But does it matter? No!! Why? Cause if it's broke, an operator that makes their skill rolls will know how to fix it. If it's fixed anyone with the proper skill that makes thier rolls can drive it. And the books tell us exactly what it's capabilities are. There is no NEED to know anything else, unless you want to bog the game down by explaining the variables of vectoring thrust rations vs weight vs ground resistance times pi to figure out if the darn thing can clear a fallen log. Screw the stuff your talking about, I wanna Role-Play! Where's the story line? Where's the part that lets my characters decisions make him either a sinner or a saint, a savior or a demon, a hero or hunted. I want to spend my time roleplaying interacting with other characters and NPC's, not figuring out the actual temperature, in kelvin, of a laser capable to doing mega-damage.

If you think you "have" to know these things then so be it, that's your opinion. And I can respect that it's your opinion. But in my opinion it's still the biggest BS line I've ever heard on a Science Fiction Role Playing Game message board.

[glitterboy2098]

and again, you seem to be assuming i'm saying more than i am.

your experiance as a marine let you make a decision about that players custom weapon. you could look at what he wanted and say "would this work" and answer that. the fine details aren't really terribly important. but your knowledge let you choose if what that player wanted was possible or not.

if that player had come up with something that would not have worked, would you have allowed it? if that player had found something totally within the game rules but so absurdly improbable in real life, would you have allowed it?

if a player comes in and shows you that in the game that the best way to deploy a marine unit is walking on their hands, gun clenched between their legs, and marching in tight packed ranks, would you go with the game (it's just a game, right?), or would you use your knowledge of the marine's to limit things and change things to better reflect reality?


that's what i'm saying. there ae many things in palladium that are just as absurd as marines handwalking into battle. only they tend to occur on levels most people aren't aware of. like space travel, computer systems, economics...

the only way to avoid the potential absurdities is to learn about them, and try to limit the damage by not letting things get out of hand.

[Shadowfyr]

and again, you seem to be assuming i'm saying more than i am.

your experiance as a marine let you make a decision about that players custom weapon. you could look at what he wanted and say "would this work" and answer that. the fine details aren't really terribly important. but your knowledge let you choose if what that player wanted was possible or not.

if that player had come up with something that would not have worked, would you have allowed it? if that player had found something totally within the game rules but so absurdly improbable in real life, would you have allowed it?

if a player comes in and shows you that in the game that the best way to deploy a marine unit is walking on their hands, gun clenched between their legs, and marching in tight packed ranks, would you go with the game (it's just a game, right?), or would you use your knowledge of the marine's to limit things and change things to better reflect reality?


that's what i'm saying. there ae many things in palladium that are just as absurd as marines handwalking into battle. only they tend to occur on levels most people aren't aware of. like space travel, computer systems, economics...

the only way to avoid the potential absurdities is to learn about them, and try to limit the damage by not letting things get out of hand.

You either misread or misunderstood, he was saying that even after discussing it, it didnt matter if the mechanics of the gun were actual or obsolete. Its the fact that the character if skill rolls are made have a chance to make it.

Even coming up with some absurd idea as trying to make an RPG launcher into an M16 would be practicallly impossible the characters can TRY if they have proper skills. And its up to the GM to make it fun or not by imposing drawbacks, negatives, and interesting outcomes.

No one truly needs to know exactly about whats going about everything aspect of their character and their skills. Currently I'm trying out a Psi-slayer, okie so aside of trying to figure out the mechanics of Psionics imma narrow to the skills. Most of the knowledge i can even simulate to come close to some of them is what i've seen in movies (which we all know is "Hollywood'd"), So things like Safecracking, Recognize wep quality, Camouflage and etc. I need to find out first out all over the internet "basic" understanding of these things to make my gaming experience more fun? Eff that i'll toss my roll and let the GM tell me what my "character" experiences from that skill.

But at the same time im not saying make everyone have a low IQ and play the game for them , No, I'm just saying that its not required for everyone to know all aspects of everything. If you do know stuff, then all the more power to you and grats for having real world knowledge of it.

[Temporalmage]

and again, you seem to be assuming i'm saying more than i am.

Nope, I'm reading every word your writing.

your experiance as a marine let you make a decision about that players custom weapon. you could look at what he wanted and say "would this work" and answer that. the fine details aren't really terribly important. but your knowledge let you choose if what that player wanted was possible or not.

if that player had come up with something that would not have worked, would you have allowed it?

In fact I did.

if that player had found something totally within the game rules but so absurdly improbable in real life, would you have allowed it?

Yup. Reason: Dragons!

if a player comes in and shows you that in the game that the best way to deploy a marine unit is walking on their hands, gun clenched between their legs, and marching in tight packed ranks, would you go with the game (it's just a game, right?), or would you use your knowledge of the marine's to limit things and change things to better reflect reality?

I'd have to see it to believe it. But if it's true my character takes the handwalking skill. And I'll demand I get a bonus vs disarm due to having the bodybuilding skill and very tight glutes.

that's what i'm saying. there ae many things in palladium that are just as absurd as marines handwalking into battle. only they tend to occur on levels most people aren't aware of. like space travel, computer systems, economics...

the only way to avoid the potential absurdities is to learn about them, and try to limit the damage by not letting things get out of hand.

You do realize it's a game right?

[Shadowfyr]

if a player comes in and shows you that in the game that the best way to deploy a marine unit is walking on their hands, gun clenched between their legs, and marching in tight packed ranks, would you go with the game (it's just a game, right?), or would you use your knowledge of the marine's to limit things and change things to better reflect reality?

I'd have to see it to believe it. But if it's true my character takes the handwalking skill. And I'll demand I get a bonus vs disarm due to having the bodybuilding skill and very tight glutes.