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Hey,

The 180mm Grenade Launcher on the Gladiator and the Excalibur is not listed as having a blast radius.

But should it?

I assumed it was meant to fire a HE explosive that went off at impact.

Or do I just go with what the book says and say it fires a massive AP round with no blast radius what so ever?

If it was to have a blast radius, what would the best size it should be? 10, 15 or 20 feet?

I'd say it should have a blast radius and I think that the damage for what is an anti-mecha weapon is too low.

IMHO the weapon basically lobs a short or medium range missile warhead.

I guess I will go with the 15 foot blast radius, so its more of a HE grenade, I look at it as mainly a anti troop, and armor weapon, and not really made for anti mech, although it can.. its a better weapon against conventional troops and armor. I think so anyways.

It's artillery...go with the blast radius...

well the 180 mm grenade launcher is miss-named. It's really more of a Mortar.

We aren't talking an infantry mortar either.

We're talking big honking artillery mortar with a shaped charge anti-mecha shell that probably weighs several hundred pounds.

No way it's only a 4D6 weapon

Though I say the same abotu the 120 mm cannon on the Dark Knight MBT

Jefffar wrote:well the 180 mm grenade launcher is miss-named. It's really more of a Mortar.

We aren't talking an infantry mortar either.

We're talking big honking artillery mortar with a shaped charge anti-mecha shell that probably weighs several hundred pounds.

No way it's only a 4D6 weapon

Though I say the same abotu the 120 mm cannon on the Dark Knight MBT

After doing a little more reading on the subject, I now have to agree with Jeffar.

If the Mac II's cannons are 40 CM and do 2d6x10 damage with a blast radius of 20ft. I can not see why a 180mm (almost 1/2 the size) should do less then 1d6x10 with a blast radius of 10 or 15 feet.

Also, for the main battle tank, 1d4x10 is reasonable aswell.

So I guess its time for the old stickynote house rule.

For the 180mm Mortar using HE rounds...I use 1d4x10 MD and a blast radius of 7 meters.
With different ammunition the damage changes to:
HEAT/HEAP: 5d6x10 MD, blast radius 3 meters
HESH/HEP: 1d4x10 MD, blast radius 5 meters, BUT the mech rolls on the critical charts...since HESH/HEP cause spalling, and very few vehicles/mecha incorporate anti-spalling layers except for the crew and pilots compartments.
HEDP: 2d4x10 MD, blast radius 5 meters
Fragmentation: 1d4x10 MD, blast radius 14 meters.

For 120mm cannons I use:
1d3x10 MD for HE, blast radius 5 meters
4d6x10 MD for HEAT/HEAP, blast radius 2 meters
and 3d10x10 MD for APFSDS-HV-DU, no blast radius

A bit overpowed, but oh well...

-STS

I really like the HESH rounds

Nice...

Thanks

Why thank you

You, wouldn't by chance, be Shotgun from the ol' WebRPG forums would you?

HESH rounds are a nice way of killing personnel inside vehicles, but then anti-spalling layers became all the rage, but I think they will make a resurgence sometime soon. Plus, they are also work well against bunkers and other targets where killing the people inside is more important than destroying the object itself.

If that's the case, then the damage is reduced to SDC so those 180mm HESH/HEP rounds do 1d4x10 MD to the target, and 1d4x10 SDC to everyone inside said target (if there is no anti-spalling layer).

-STS

I used to go to that site alot.

And until just now, I forgot it ever exsisted! I decided to go back to it now to see, and i learned its down.

But yeah, I was a member, but heck, it seems like it was years since I was last on it! But I am unsure if I am the same shotgun, as I cant recall what monkier I used.. but it could very well be me..

who knows

I don't know if it helps but Rifts has a few grenade launchers that deal 4d6. Blast radius varies between 12 feet and 20 feet.

and some of those are under barrel pieces, approximately 30 mm in calibre and overall weighing in at probably less than 1% the weight of the 180 mm weapon.

I really think there needs to be a better sense of scale of vehicle to infantry weapons.

Jefffar wrote:and some of those are under barrel pieces, approximately 30 mm in calibre and overall weighing in at probably less than 1% the weight of the 180 mm weapon.

I really think there needs to be a better sense of scale of vehicle to infantry weapons.

MDC weapons and armor do more damage, absorb more damage in Rifts, the technology base is more advanced.

The Artist Formerly wrote:

Jefffar wrote:and some of those are under barrel pieces, approximately 30 mm in calibre and overall weighing in at probably less than 1% the weight of the 180 mm weapon.

I really think there needs to be a better sense of scale of vehicle to infantry weapons.

MDC weapons and armor do more damage, absorb more damage in Rifts, the technology base is more advanced.

not completly True, Humanities Advanced Technology is based on Tech that has been Advancing for 500,000 years. the Masters Empire is at least that old, and Zor's Battle-fortress is suposed to be an Advanced Battleship.
Rifts Tech is completly based off Golden-age technology which is from the late 21st Century. w/o any known influxes of Advanced Alien Technology.
Compareing the 2 is like comparing Star Wars and Star Trek technology... fans from either Side will see thie tech as being completly Superior...

compareing Sizes....
The Aplha's Missile outload by Robotech.com:
4 x 78mm short-range missiles mounted in the head. Total ammunition supply is 8 missiles
60 x 190mm short-range missiles, mounted in single-shot surface launchers spread out along the fuselage.

190 MM is stardard "SRM" by palladium system.

the Spartan/"Gladiator" outload:
2 x light lasers, located in a turret on the top of the mecha
2 x Missile launchers in the shoulder, each carrying 12 short-range heavy missiles
1 x Gun cluster in the center torso containing:
- 1 x 32 mm autocannon
- 1 x 180mm direct-fire mortar
- 1 x light laser
- 1 x flamethrower
- 12.7 mm machinegun

The 180mm Mortar should do Damage simmilar to the Warhead of a SRM of an Alpha.
thou being earlier technology. you may want to use the Unrevised Missile chart found in the Old RPG.

I changed the 180mm GL to a 120mm direct fire mortar that does 5d6 MDC.

It should be noted that in RL a 120mm Mortar has a bursting radius of 75 meters....a 180mm mortar would proablay have a bursting radius of about 100 meters.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

The Artist Formerly wrote:

Jefffar wrote:and some of those are under barrel pieces, approximately 30 mm in calibre and overall weighing in at probably less than 1% the weight of the 180 mm weapon.

I really think there needs to be a better sense of scale of vehicle to infantry weapons.

MDC weapons and armor do more damage, absorb more damage in Rifts, the technology base is more advanced.

not completly True, Humanities Advanced Technology is based on Tech that has been Advancing for 500,000 years. the Masters Empire is at least that old, and Zor's Battle-fortress is suposed to be an Advanced Battleship.
Rifts Tech is completly based off Golden-age technology which is from the late 21st Century. w/o any known influxes of Advanced Alien Technology.
Compareing the 2 is like comparing Star Wars and Star Trek technology... fans from either Side will see thie tech as being completly Superior...

compareing Sizes....
The Aplha's Missile outload by Robotech.com:
4 x 78mm short-range missiles mounted in the head. Total ammunition supply is 8 missiles
60 x 190mm short-range missiles, mounted in single-shot surface launchers spread out along the fuselage.

190 MM is stardard "SRM" by palladium system.

the Spartan/"Gladiator" outload:
2 x light lasers, located in a turret on the top of the mecha
2 x Missile launchers in the shoulder, each carrying 12 short-range heavy missiles
1 x Gun cluster in the center torso containing:
- 1 x 32 mm autocannon
- 1 x 180mm direct-fire mortar
- 1 x light laser
- 1 x flamethrower
- 12.7 mm machinegun

The 180mm Mortar should do Damage simmilar to the Warhead of a SRM of an Alpha.
thou being earlier technology. you may want to use the Unrevised Missile chart found in the Old RPG.

By the dice, Rifts takes the cake. It's pure cheese cake filled with ferkelberger jelly and power creep, I grant you, but in terms of dice, the old Gladiator and Excal's 180mm weapon deals the same or less damage as the grenade launchers found underslung on assault rifles in Rifts. The second generation CS assault rifle and the NG-LG6 both jump to mind.

Perhaps the 180 uses SDC style explosives? Or as you say early robotech explosvie technolgies and just isn't up to snuff (or is designed to keep costs down). I'm just trying to figure a blast radius based on other Pallaium works.

As a grenade or a motar the primary would be anti-personel and anti-light vehicle. Probably with strikers and bradley style vehicles in mind. So amping up the damage to 6d6 or 1d4x10 wouldn't really be out of the question, and then slap a 12 to 20 foot blast radius on the sucker. Or hell, write up two or three differant damage codes and blast radius, plus a smoke round and use it to add flexibility to the weapon system for the pilot. The gladiator and Excall would not be unbalanced or over powered by such an addition and would make destroids even more useful in game play.

The Apache and A-10 both have 30mm guns. They do not damage tanks the same.

Off topic, but just because I like gunz! Anybody want to check my math?

GAU-8A mounted on the A-10 Thunderbolt II
Rate of fire: 2600 rounds per minute
Weight: 620 pounds w/o ammo
Length: 112 inches (9 ½ feet)
Width: 17 inch diameter
Ammunition: 1000 rounds (26 short bursts, 13 long bursts or 2 full melee bursts)
Range: 3,500 meters
Damage: 1d6x100 SDC per round (HVAP-DU) High Velocity Armor Piercing Depleted Uranium (1d6 MD per round)
Short Burst: x 10 damage
Long Burst: x 20 damage
Full melee Burst: x 100 damage
Blast Radius: 0


M230 30mm chaingun mounted on the AH-64
Weight: 127 pounds unloaded
Length: 66 inches
Width: 12 inches (gun only)
Ammunition: 1200 rounds. (60 short bursts, 30 long bursts or 8 full melee bursts)
Rate of Fire: 600-650 rounds per minute
Range: 2500 meters
Damage: by ammo type
Armor Piercing Incendiary (API): 14d10 SD (1 MD), no blast radius
High Explosive (HE): 7d10 SD, blast radius 1 meter
High Explosive Incendiary (HEI): 8d10 SD, blast radius 1 meter, 75% start a fire
High Explosive Dual Purpose (HEDP): 10d10 SD, blast radius 1 meter (1 MD per round)
Target Practice (TP): 7d10 SD, no blast radius
Armor Piercing Incendiary Depleted Uranium (API-DU): 28d10+1d10, no blast (1d2 MD per round)
Short Burst: x 10 damage
Long Burst: x 20 damage
Full melee Burst: x 100 damage

-STS

Perhaps the 180 uses SDC style explosives? Or as you say early robotech explosvie technolgies and just isn't up to snuff (or is designed to keep costs down). I'm just trying to figure a blast radius based on other Pallaium works.


Originaly, i assumed it was a weapon meant for NON MDC armor and locations. If its for something like that, it would be perfect for targets like one would find in a SDC urban enviornment, something that would not be to rough on the surounding area.

And 5D6 sounds good too.. if used for that same purpose


SGJ

Have to add a few points.

180mm direct fire should be treated like UK 183mm spigot mortars of WW2 or 1950s 183mm demolition shells.

The Brits fired 183mm spigot mortars against submarines, and even mounted these "Hedgehogs" to a Matilda II variant. It hapenned to lob a 65lb mortar about 400m on land. Shorter range but huge explosive for bunkers, obstacles, and troops.

There was also a 183mm HESH demolition gun mounted on a Centurion variant called the FV 4005. It lobbed a demolition shell 1800m capable of destroying concrete and causing spall damage inside of armored tanks.

The 183mm demolition gun never saw combat, but the smaller 165mm L9A1 fires a 65lb soft skinned HESH shell approximately 914m. HESH shells of these sizes bust through concrete and cause extensive spall damage on a direct tank hit.

Calculating blast radius (using an on-lime blast wave calculator) would mean 10 m radius HIGH MDC, 20 m radius moderate MDC and SDC fatalities to troops, and 30 m moderate SDC damage injuries.

Those are Demolition Guns...nicknamed 'flying dustbins' because the shells they threw looked like miniature garbage cans. That, and they pretty much made a mess of whatever they hit. Short range, but freakin' scary if you were in a bunker and a tank/engineering vehicle started lobbing those things at you.

I usually think of the 180 as being a low velocity/short range version of the old Soviet 160mm Mortar. In terms of on target effect it shouldn't be far off the demolition guns, but have a slightly longer effective range.

I don't think the 4D6 needs to be changed, but ad a blast radius of 100'.
Then it would be very effective against Zentraedi ground troops.
I'd like to think of it as a large anti Zentraedi granade...

Against the 25 MDC light body armor this is very potent, but not enough to kill outright...
It does soften them up quite nicely...
And against the mecha's it could diliver the killing blow, if damaged at range...
1300 meters is damm close with Zent mecha at full speed....

Jefffar wrote:I usually think of the 180 as being a low velocity/short range version of the old Soviet 160mm Mortar. In terms of on target effect it shouldn't be far off the demolition guns, but have a slightly longer effective range.

I thought of the 160mm Soviet and 240mm also. Those are long range high angle in-direct fire. The German 170mm, 380mm (see Sturmtiger) and the UK spigot mortars I mentioned would be closer to the mark.

All these were low range, low fire angle, direct fire, and heavy damage.

While there wasn't a blast radius listed in the original RPG run, the new Second Edition RPG does specify a radius. For damages purpose, each 180mm round is equal in destructive profile to a mini-missile.

personally i figure weapons like the mortars are just using less advanced warheads.. explosives come in a lot of forms and densities.. the mortar might be using a less powerful explosive, for some reason. perhaps a more stable form that is less likely to be set off by the 'kick' of the shell being fired. or maybe they just decided to skimp on the cost when making a warhead that wasn't going to be slapped into a self guiding missile. or maybe they designed the warhead around getting MD level fragmentation effects and not direct explosive damage..

or maybe they are using a surplus pre-robotechnology warhead and the low damage is actually just very very high SDC damage.

slade the sniper wrote:Why thank you

...

If that's the case, then the damage is reduced to SDC so those 180mm HESH/HEP rounds do 1d4x10 MD to the target, and 1d4x10 SDC to everyone inside said target (if there is no anti-spalling layer).

-STS

I agree with THIS. But increase the damage.

I propose trading range for damage. Treating the 180mm as a higher damage direct hit, low range. More than 1D4x10 MD direct hit, 4D6 within 5m, high critical SDC within 15m, and SDC damage out to 25 m.

183mm UK "wall-buster" hitting 150mm steel caused a 117lb spall inside the target. This spall was around 2 ft^2 and bashed around the inside crew and ammo. These were NOT fragmenting heavy steel shells which devastated troops with shrapnel. They were designed to destroy the harder targets they hit. Hitting a moving tank or mecha was un-likely, but shot within 500m would be less chance of dodge.

obsessed wrote:I agree with THIS. But increase the damage.

I propose trading range for damage. Treating the 180mm as a higher damage direct hit, low range. More than 1D4x10 MD direct hit, 4D6 within 5m, high critical SDC within 15m, and SDC damage out to 25 m.

183mm UK "wall-buster" hitting 150mm steel caused a 117lb spall inside the target. This spall was around 2 ft^2 and bashed around the inside crew and ammo. These were NOT fragmenting heavy steel shells which devastated troops with shrapnel. They were designed to destroy the harder targets they hit. Hitting a moving tank or mecha was un-likely, but shot within 500m would be less chance of dodge.

Yes, however it was discovered that HESH shells like these weapons were totally defeated by any sort of spaced or laminate armour/construction materials. Hence why they fell out of use.

More modern systems rely on either a precursor charge to blow a hole in the wall and then send a secondary charge into the hole (HIgh Explosive Follow Through) or use a delayed charge to actually partially penetrate the wall and then explode. For anti-armour use the goal is typically a shaped charge (sometimes done in tandem to defeat any sort of reactive armour).

only the british make standard use of HESH shells any more, and even they only equip them in special circumstances, like assaulting bunkers or in city fighting. (this is one of the reasons they continue to use rifled tank cannons, instead of the more prevalent smoothbores. smoothbores cannot use HESH rounds effectively. rifled cannons however cannot use APFSDS kinetic penetrators effectively though, so it is a major trade off.. given how most tank armor today is less vulnerable to HESH and HEAT, this is sometimes seen as a failing of the british design standards.)

Okay, the original topic was whether or not to give the 180mm a blast radius: YES.

Are they armor-piercing, no.

Are they a HESH round, no.

Are they anti-personnel, no. But I wouldn't want to be a micronian standing within 30m of impact.

180mm should have equal OR MORE damage than the guided SRMs, but wihthout the range, and without the guidance.

Would the RDF keep obsolete weapons against Zentraedi? If it couldn't bust open a battle pod, or injure a squad of armored Zendraedi, than rip it off and mount a better weapon.

I was merely expressing similar caliber direct fire mortars known damage to targets. British 183mm wall-busters were C-4 demolition shells, not HESH shells, but performed HESH damage when tested on armor plate. Just high explosives designed to be lobbed at closer ranges than field guns, tank guns, howitzers OR heavy mortars. Basically a hisoric example to the fictional weapon under discussion here.

When the weapon and platform were designed, they may not have been considering their use just on the Zentraedi. The Tomahawk also mounts flamethrowers and machine guns. The combination of those and the 180mm weapon implies use in urban combat.

Jefffar wrote:When the weapon and platform were designed, they may not have been considering their use just on the Zentraedi. The Tomahawk also mounts flamethrowers and machine guns. The combination of those and the 180mm weapon implies use in urban combat.

Clearly the RDF did not know 40 to 60 foot aliens were going to attack Earth.