Vajras, & TW's

[Grandil]

I'll take a tip from a good TW Man-Demonbunnyman, & use Modular slots for my Vehicles. Now,
again, maybe you can add to this Tyciol, & start to talk about Vajras-put that in your Power-hungry, PA Slots........ any ruling on that? there would be no end to the number of spells in a
Power Armor ^/Robot. yes, I am a power gamer.
GRRRRandil

[Misfit KotLD]

Vajra tine pairs are slots, the problem is I don't see the specificity inherent in vajra translating to power armors and vehicles.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The vajra has to be made as a whole. No adding and taking away of parts.

Spell storage: any and all spells can be stored in passive storage, but they are like Talisman, once used the spell 'energy pattern' and energy are used up in the casting.

Now, if the PC had a TW that learned how to make vajra, they might be able to link the vajra to (through) a TW vehicle's controls. Much like the TW in the young gods (RCB2) was able to like the giant rune sword to (through) his PA. This falls under GM descression.

Otherwise, if the TW made some TW items that could be made to link up to form a composite TW item, that would be totally different.

[Grandil]

I realize I didn't make myself clear, that you make the Vajra FIRST, then make the module fit
with a TW. the Part that I have a hard time with & this is where I could use Demonbunnyman,
is how to make a module, or a TW Module. The obvious is the slot itself; making the slot so it
would be magic-that's the real hard part.

Spell storage: any and all spells can be stored in passive storage, but they are like Talisman, once used the spell 'energy pattern' and energy are used up in the casting.

Now, if the PC had a TW that learned how to make vajra, they might be able to link the vajra to (through) a TW vehicle's controls. Much like the TW in the young gods (RCB2) was able to like the giant rune sword to (through) his PA. This falls under GM descression.

Otherwise, if the TW made some TW items that could be made to link up to form a composite TW item, that would be totally different.
The vajra has to be made as a whole. No adding and taking away of parts.

Spell storage: any and all spells can be stored in passive storage, but they are like Talisman, once used the spell 'energy pattern' and energy are used up in the casting.

Now, if the PC had a TW that learned how to make vajra, they might be able to link the vajra to (through) a TW vehicle's controls. Much like the TW in the young gods (RCB2) was able to like the giant rune sword to (through) his PA. This falls under GM descression.

Otherwise, if the TW made some TW items that could be made to link up to form a composite TW item, that would be totally different.

My question DK, is why you can only have
Passive, & not Active spells? Now again is there a limit to the number of tines? no-not as the
spell stands now.

Vajra tine pairs are slots, the problem is I don't see the specificity inherent in vajra translating to power armors and vehicles.

really for
me, I made these into separate questions. Of course, Misfit, tines ARE slots. The really new
concept, & again, Demonbunnyman, is Modular TW slots, where you can fit a series of
different Spell sequences into one vehicle.

[drewkitty ~..~]

My question DK, is why you can only have
Passive, & not Active spells? Now again is there a limit to the number of tines? no-not as the
spell stands now.

The major reason I didn't mention active spell containment was it didn't need to be mentioned. If a TW could somehow connect the Vajra to his Vehicle then the spells used would be western spells not chi spells, so it basically act like a TW item with instant (1 APM) casting with the flick of a switch or pull of a trigger.

The limit to the number of tines is based off the PPE available to make the Vajra in the first place.

[Misfit KotLD]

Vajra tine pairs are slots, the problem is I don't see the specificity inherent in vajra translating to power armors and vehicles.

really for
me, I made these into separate questions. Of course, Misfit, tines ARE slots. The really new
concept, & again, Demonbunnyman, is Modular TW slots, where you can fit a series of
different Spell sequences into one vehicle.

Ok, I have no idea what you're looking for and the random hitting of the enter key is not helping your clarity.

[Grandil]

sorry, Misfit, part of my problem is Crappy comps-I'm never sure when to push return.
Modular slots are for what you want in a PA; for instance, Fireball, Power Bolt, Armor of Ithan,
& Armor Bizarre in 1 module, then you have a separate one having another number of spells,
ect. The thing is making modular slots for each module. My english writing skills are crappy too.
(if ya can't tell)

Technowizards can't make vajras, they don't know how to manipulate chi. They'd need a Wu Shih's help, since they're the only ones who can make them.

Furhtermore, you need to use a mudra to operate Vajras. You can't convert mudras
with technowizardry, so to use a vajra in a power armour you'd need to teach the pilot this
mudra.

Not true, Tyciol, you don't need the Mudra for the Evocation of Power, or the
Mudra for the Manipulation of Vajras to do it-anyone can use a vajra. they just have to look
under the specific Chi spell to see if it would work for them. That & it's already been
established that a vajra is a more powerful version of Talisman (see Rifter #3 again). Mudras
just add to it.

[Misfit KotLD]

I'm not sure about modular slots in that manner, but I do like the idea.

[drewkitty ~..~]

sorry, Misfit, part of my problem is Crappy comps-I'm never sure when to push return.
Modular slots are for what you want in a PA; for instance, Fireball, Power Bolt, Armor of Ithan,
& Armor Bizarre in 1 module, then you have a separate one having another number of spells,
ect. The thing is making modular slots for each module. My english writing skills are crappy too.
(if ya can't tell)

...snip

So, its sort of having a TW gun in which each Magazine has a different spell in it?

But the way you are describing it, the TW gun is actully a PA with ?several? places for magazines.*spock eyebrow raise*

The better you can use words the better you can say what you 'mean'.

[drewkitty ~..~]

P.P.E. storage.

[*]Level compatibility.

I was just thinking, spurred on by your post, that a TW could make a his TW-item compatible with someone else's PPE clip if he spent the time to research how to do it.

[Grandil]

The way I understand it, you usually have TW enhancements "hard-wired" into a PA or body armor suit, to suit the needs/desires of the user.

What he's apparently talking about is, instead of hard-wiring a set of TW enhancements into the suit, you build a modular attachment "slot" for the suit, & then you build a bunch of "cassettes", "module", or however you want to describe the storage receptacles, which can have different spell combinations available, & allowing the end-user to customize the armor for different situations.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with this kind of construction. You're essentially talking about P"lug-N-Play" for TW items... & given the emphasis on tech/magic integration for Techno-wizards, it's a logical progression.

Although I don't see any problems, I do think certain things need to be considered:


P.P.E. storage. When designing the interface & associated modules, the TW needs to decide whether the "charge" that activates the TW enhancements is stored in the individual modules or the interface. Note that this is a very important question, as it determines how the modules will work in the device! The first method is to store the "charge" in the module. This method allows the module to retain its "charge" even when not directly hooked into an interface, and also allows "charged" modules to be retrieved & reused in the field. The Techno-wizard must determine if they want a separate "charge" for each enhancement (i.e. you're out of charge for Armor of Ithan, but Fly as the Eagle is still available), or if they want a common "charge pool" (i.e. a single large infusion of P.P.E. resets all of the enhancements). My recommendation is that, if the latter option is used, instead of having to recharge all of the uses at once that P.P.E. storage is incorporated instead.

The second method is to store the "charge" directly in the interface. Personally, the only way I see that method working is if P.P.E. storage is incorporated into the interface to run whatever spells are in each module. This allows for more precise control over the enhancements used, but also means that changing out modules won't help you if the P.P.E. storage is out.

An enterprising (& fairly wealthy) Techno-wizard can, of course, combine the two methods (i.e. "charge" is in the module, but P.P.E. storage is available in the interface to supplement it), but will require quite a lot of gemstones & P.P.E. to construct.
Lack of commonality/proprietary interfaces. Unless the same Techno-wizard works as the "primary" on both the body/power armor suit and the "gem box" being installed in it, you can't just take a modular unit from 1 suit & plug it into another suit expecting it to work. That doesn't mean it can't eventually work, just that modules/slots from another TW designer will have to be 'fiddled with' in order to work. Such work will require a Techno-wizard of equal or higher level than the device (i.e. no 1st-level "apprentices" trying to work on a master's 7th-level equipment), & I would recommend that the modifications be treated as if creating a TW item with a 20 P.P.E. spell for determining the P.P.E. construction cost, additional materials cost needed, & time to modify (although additional gemstones shouldn't be needed).

This is a situation where the use of blueprints & design plans can save a lot of time and money, as another TW could use the original blueprints to construct new modules for the existing interface, or even reverse-engineer a new interface for an existing module.
Additional time/materials/PPE for construction. The modular interface itself is going to require the installation of gemstones, wiring, & additional equipment, as well as an outlay of P.P.E., in addition to whatever is required for storing the "charge". The specifics will be up to the individual GM, although I think 1 Energy Bolt per spell in each module might work. Use the normal rules for determining P.P.E. construction cost, time to build, & cost of additional materials.

Level compatibility. Because the interface itself is a TW item, you'll have to match the interface level with the module level. If a module has multiple spells, the GM can either use the highest-level spell in the module or take the average of all of the spells. This is actually very critical, since the item's "level" determines the final spell effect. In this case, because the interface is directly linked to the body/power armor suit, it sets an "upper limit" on the potential spell level. Modules with a higher-level enhancement will see a drop in power (i.e. a module with 10th-level Armor of Ithan plugged into a 6th-level interface will only generate a 6th-level Armor of Ithan spell). Whether this results in the module having additional "charge" available (i.e. in the prior example, since the module's spell level was twice that of the interface, it gets twice as many uses before needing to be recharged) is up to the GM. A worse situation can occur, however, if a lower-level module is plugged into an interface. At the very least, the enhancement is limited to the module's level (i.e. plugging a 3rd-level module into a 5th-level interface limits the spells to 3rd-level in their effects).

The GM may also consider having the possibility of "burn-out" occurring whenever levels don't match up. A difference of only 1 level either way will probably not cause any problems; however, if the difference in levels is 2 or more there is a cumulative -10% chance per level difference of burnout occurring. The lower-level item will be the one that suffers the "burnout", & a roll should be made every time an enhancement is used. For example, using a module with 10th-level Armor of Ithan plugged into a 6th-level interface means that each time the spell is cast, there is a 40% chance [(10-6)*10%] of burning out the interface (the lower-level unit).
Association of magic with the appropriate technology. Remember, even when using a non-TW item as a focus to cast spells, the Techno-wizard requires an appropriate item to use as the focus (i.e. laser pistol for Energy Bolt). Some enhancements automatically are assumed to be part of their "focus" by using the interface/module method, such as Armor of Ithan. Other enhancements, however, will be lacking the connection to an appropriate focus, such as See the Invisible, if the slot is just located in a random spot on the armor (or even specifically installed on the main body or arm). One method around this problem is to have different interface "ports" mounted in the appropriate place on the armor (i.e. the interface for modules with See Aura or See the Invisible is mounted on the helmet). However, if there is a limit to the number of total enhancements that a suit can have, this will limit the usefulness of the modules (i.e. having 2 or 3 interfaces may limit the amount of spells per module to 1 or 2). Alternately, the Techno-Wizard may incorporate additional materials & P.P.E. into the construction of the interface to extend its coverage (i.e. additional wiring extends from the interface to the helmet, arms, legs, etc.). Each additional "extension" increases the P.P.E. construction cost for the interface by +20%, with each limb counted separately (i.e. an "extension" for both arms costs +40%).

Or, if the interface is not in an appropriate spot for the spell, & there are no "extensions" used, then the GM could apply the normal penalty that the Techno-Wizard suffers when casting spells without an appropriate focus.

This is exactly what I mean, although much more in detail. Now for the Vajra part you would need a box that would "hard wire" with
all the spells in the vajra linked into a gem/general module.......

I thought Vajra abilities only took a melee attack to activate to begin with? I'd have to go look it up, I recall it being sort of vague.

I just don't need this being something a TW would do, Vajras don't look very techish at all. They don't have gems or wires.

wires, gems would be attached to the vajra. I used to
have an actual vajra, & depending on the shape & size, the module might have to be on the
outside. BTW Whipped I Love it!

[Grandil]

Any takers on this? A Wu would be nessesary, but why not a Wu Shih/TW Ninja? There are Taoists in Japan..... why not
Rifts Japan?
It's a Question I asked Kiseru before he left.
Grandil

[drewkitty ~..~]

Any takers on this? A Wu would be nessesary, but why not a Wu Shih/TW Ninja? There are Taoists in Japan..... why not
Rifts Japan?
It's a Question I asked Kiseru before he left.
Grandil

Because its a munchkin question.
So I'll just say
no
No
NO
NO!!!!!!!
(For those of you who need to have descriptive adverbs added to the saying of no to make you understand the sayer really means no, then you should add as many as you think you need to the above to make you stop that munchkin line of thought.)

[Grandil]

Any takers on this? A Wu would be nessesary, but why not a Wu Shih/TW Ninja? There are Taoists in Japan..... why not
Rifts Japan?
It's a Question I asked Kiseru before he left.
Grandil

Because its a munchkin question.
So I'll just say
no
No
NO
NO!!!!!!!
(For those of you who need to have descriptive adverbs added to the saying of no to make you understand the sayer really means no, then you should add as many as you think you need to the above to make you stop that munchkin line of thought.)

For those of us power gamers, This is just limiting. Of course it's no for you Drewkitty, cause it unlimits your imagination, &
limits are a problem for you..... Sorry I asked. BTW, I have NO problem with limits........'Tsi an Ill wind that Blows no Minds!
Grandil

[drewkitty ~..~]

For those of us power gamers, This is just limiting. Of course it's no for you Drewkitty, cause it unlimits your imagination, &
limits are a problem for you..... Sorry I asked. BTW, I have NO problem with limits........'Tsi an Ill wind that Blows no Minds!
Grandil

I know what the difference between a power game and a munchkin looks like. I'm a power gamer with my inner munchkin tightly chained. I've even made my own NB featues w/o them getting too munchkiny.

Beside there are some limitations on becoming a Wu Shih that prohibit the class change that was suggested.
While the background text for the TW ninja also precludes the combination.

[Grandil]

Drewkitty: I'm glad you didn't take offense to the last post I made; I tend to be in a little
hurry when I write. Why make it a Rule-playing game? Why not make it a Role-Playing Game?
Here's my beef w/the latter two posts: Role-Play it out. A Wu becomes interested in becoming
a TW Ninja/Vice versa. Besides, you're a Really creative sort; much more so than I, Drewkitty,
& it seems such a waste that you've slaved your inner munchkin. Let him/her Free! You have a
choice-let creativity be your guide, or slave that munchkin..........
Yours in Creativity,
Grandil
PS: What do ya mean by NB? Nightbane?

[Grandil]

(Threadkiller)!(me)........

[AlanGunhouse]

Basically you need a spell that activates other spells somewhere in the spell chain to create a modular magic item. I would have to research if such a spell exists...does anyone know?

[Grandil]

Basically you need a spell that activates other spells somewhere in the spell chain to create a modular magic item. I would have to research if such a spell exists...does anyone know?

I doubt it, but this is where the Mudra(s) for the Evocation of Power, & Mudra for the
Handling of the Mystic Vajra comes in handy.
Research a New Spell-ther are ways, but you have to get Through the Glass Darkly to
research it. Maybe something like the old AD&D Chain Contingency spell.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I get plenty creative.

For the 1st few years after getting into gaming I was making chars for fun to see how I could twist and turn a char and still fall with in the rules. But just maxing out the char isn't very fun anymore.
Recently I've been thinking up some source material for RoboTech: the Shadow Chronicles. It started off with equipment for the Conbat fighter, but recently I've put up a couple ships. With one just plan 'I hate these range and MDC/MD limitations of the standard PWish ships'.

[Library Ogre]

I would not allow a Vajra to be incorporated into a TW device. Two incompatible forms of magic.

[AlanGunhouse]

The poll needs a "neither" vote.

I would not allow either one without a valid spell chain for making it work.

[Grandil]

The poll needs a "neither" vote.

I would not allow either one without a valid spell chain for making it work.

Since I started this, I'm not sure if I can do that; as far as the poll. As far as spell chains read whipped's addendum- a Modular spell would be perfect! DU understand what I'm getting at, Alan? I hope I'm not being condescending........

I would not allow a Vajra to be incorporated into a TW device. Two incompatible forms of magic.

Why? Other forms of magic (Necro, temporal, Ocean, Ect) are compatable
As it is why can anyone use the Talisman spell? The same applies to Vajra, & you Can put even normal Invocations into a Vajra. This flies in the face of what you're saying.
You can use a Talisman in a TW Implant, here it is again, Why not a Vajra? Besides,
Mark, I can appreciate your sense of humor in this- It would be funny for a Ludicrous mage to get a TW to work for him.......
Spell Chains in a modular Vajra would be directly connected to the Mod Holder. What's hard about that?

[Grandil]

I get plenty creative.

For the 1st few years after getting into gaming I was making chars for fun to see how I could twist and turn a char and still fall with in the rules. But just maxing out the char isn't very fun anymore.
Recently I've been thinking up some source material for RoboTech: the Shadow Chronicles. It started off with equipment for the Conbat fighter, but recently I've put up a couple ships. With one just plan 'I hate these range and MDC/MD limitations of the standard PWish ships'.

This isn' Character creation-it Device creation. I get tired of creating 1st lvl characters...K-A Drewkitty-you don't disappoint, like I said! Anyway, I had a Character
for about 15-16 years; guess what his name was? Grandil-he turned out to be a god
after that, & I retired him. But in this game, you ARE allowed to play GAWDS.......

[Library Ogre]

Why? Other forms of magic (Necro, temporal, Ocean, Ect) are compatable
As it is why can anyone use the Talisman spell? The same applies to Vajra, & you Can put even normal Invocations into a Vajra. This flies in the face of what you're saying.
You can use a Talisman in a TW Implant, here it is again, Why not a Vajra? Besides,
Mark, I can appreciate your sense of humor in this- It would be funny for a Ludicrous mage to get a TW to work for him.......
Spell Chains in a modular Vajra would be directly connected to the Mod Holder. What's hard about that?

While Necromancy, Temporal Magic, and Ocean Magic are different forms of magic, they're essentially a different flavor of spell magic. Vajra are Chi Magic, which utilize an energy source foreign to techno-wizardry, and are, further, enchanted items in their own right.

[AlanGunhouse]

It does say, in Mystic China, that Chi Magic can be learned by westerners I think, though they have to spend like double the PPE because they do not understand Chi. I would have to look it up to be certain.

As to the question of Whipped's addendum. We are looking at different points in the same issue. He was considering the technological aspects (Plug in Moduals), while I am concentrating on the magical question of how you remotely use a spell not directly in contact with you.

[Library Ogre]

I'll also add that I don't think TW does plug-in modules very well. Each device needs to be specially tuned to its purpose by means of its construction.

[drewkitty ~..~]

It does say, in Mystic China, that Chi Magic can be learned by westerners I think, though they have to spend like double the PPE because they do not understand Chi. I would have to look it up to be certain.

As to the question of Whipped's addendum. We are looking at different points in the same issue. He was considering the technological aspects (Plug in Modules), while I am concentrating on the magical question of how you remotely use a spell not directly in contact with you.

What MC says is that western mages can learn Chi magic, i.e.: change their class to Wu Shih, spell after they could control their chi, a years long experience.

or

If they find a chi magic text, or find a cooperative chi magic practitioner to help him to convert the chi magic to a western invocation magic. Then after months of study, they can try to cast the converted spell. [roll on the MC conversion table] (living chi spells can not be converted !!)
{The spell creation rules found in through he glass darkly' might be used for the initial creation roll, but they would still have to roll on the MC conversion table}

Ether way the western mage progresses at one third the normal rate. i.e.: three times as much exp. for each level.

[Grandil]

While Necromancy, Temporal Magic, and Ocean Magic are different forms of magic, they're essentially a different flavor of spell magic. Vajra are Chi Magic, which utilize an energy source foreign to techno-wizardry, and are, further, enchanted items in their own right.

Again, when Vajras have their own source ofr P.P.E., & Chi. Plug ins help this.

It does say, in Mystic China, that Chi Magic can be learned by westerners I think, though they have to spend like double the PPE because they do not understand Chi. I would have to look it up to be certain.

As to the question of Whipped's addendum. We are looking at different points in the same issue. He was considering the technological aspects (Plug in Moduals), while I am concentrating on the magical question of how
you remotely use a spell not directly in contact with you.

. Even though I don't have the book, I
remember it as being a spell conversion chart-& not a very good one either. P.P.E. Costs are still the same-& you
can actually learn Chi Magic- for Celestial calligraphy it takes about 5 minutes per spell. For a more
comprehensive learning it takes 5 years. Peanuts for a Godling. Alan, I don't need to use it Indirectly, The mod
would be in you hand, actually touching, say skin. Maybe I'm not sure what U mean by this.........
Grandil; Hey everyone, I really appreciqate the dialog- It getsz ya Thinking!

[Grandil]

It does say, in Mystic China, that Chi Magic can be learned by westerners I think, though they have to spend like double the PPE because they do not understand Chi. I would have to look it up to be certain.

As to the question of Whipped's addendum. We are looking at different points in the same issue. He was considering the technological aspects (Plug in Modules), while I am concentrating on the magical question of how you remotely use a spell not directly in contact with you.

What MC says is that western mages can learn Chi magic, i.e.: change their class to Wu Shih, spell after they could control their chi, a years long experience.

or

If they find a chi magic text, or find a cooperative chi magic practitioner to help him to convert the chi magic to a western invocation magic. Then after months of study, they can try to cast the converted spell. [roll on the MC conversion table] (living chi spells can not be converted !!)
{The spell creation rules found in through he glass darkly' might be used for the initial creation roll, but they would still have to roll on the MC conversion table}

Ether way the western mage progresses at one third the normal rate. i.e.: three times as much exp. for each level.

Ditto.........