Paired Weapons & Multiple Parries

[Dead Boy]

Here's a quandary that I came across while looking at the Paired Weapon's skill that got me wondering.

In RUE, pg. 342, it says under the Two Against One section that a character "can try to parry incoming attacks from as many as three adversaries" but the fourth and all in excess of that get through.

However, according to RUE, pg. 327, if you have Paired Weapons, it says "When fighting three (or more) attackers, the character would be able to parry two of the attackers, but any other attackers would be unopposed."

What?

Since Paired Weapons is supposed to improve a character's fighting ability with melee weapons, if that character was able to parry his normal allotment of three while barehanded, you'd think that not only would that carry over when the character is wielding two melee weapons, but also might be able to double that, being able to parry the attacks of up to six attackers if he forgoed his ability to counter attack. So how can it be that when you use paired melee weapons, your defensive abilities actually worsen?

[mobuttu]

I have always believed that branding two swords to parry is a little more difficult than with one only. That's the explanation I gave to my players.

[Killer Cyborg]

I think we're missing a piece of the puzzle.

The only reason I can think of that you could only parry two incoming attacks with paired weapons is if both attacks are coming at you at effectively the same time.
One weapon per attack.

But we don't know what time frame they intend:
-per initiative
-per round of attacks
-or whatever

[Rimmer]

I've genarally put paired weapons into the to hard basket for years, PB's take on them is stupid with a side of fries and I have never found a house rule that I like.

[Tinker Dragoon]

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[Glistam]

My group ignores the multiple attacker portion of Paired Weapons and just uses the multiple attacker portion from the Two Against One section. At least most of the time. There can always be circumstances that will change this, but that is the general rule.

Currently though, we are trying to figure out a slightly different problem that comes up with Paired Weapons.

If every character in the game can make at least one attack per initiative pass and parry at least two attackers per initiative pass, then what does the following actually mean in game terms:

"Strike and parry simultaneously. In other words, those skilled in W.P. Paired Weapons can often perform two actions for every one melee action/attack."

If I am interpreting this sentence correctly according to is grammar, it means that the character can parry twice as a single action. How does this work?

Attack AND Parry (useful for simultaneous attacks)
Attack AND Attack (pretty much why people use Paired Weapons)
Parry AND Parry (though you houserule so this isn't needed)

[Glistam]

Attack AND Parry (useful for simultaneous attacks)
Attack AND Attack (pretty much why people use Paired Weapons)

This is mentioned later in the skill description as a different ability

Parry AND Parry (though you houserule so this isn't needed)

Being able to parry more than one attack is not a house rule. The house rule is ignoring the part of the skill that says you can only parry two attackers per initiative count instead of the three attackers mentioned in the combat section.

Paired Weapons only allows you to parry two attackers while you're using that ability, and then only if you don't use your attacks. If you allow a character using paired weapons to parry more than two attackers then it's a house rule. There is nothing wrong with a house rule, but it is a house rule.

[ZorValachan]

So if any character (regardless of skills known) can intrinsically parry more than one attack (regardless of how many more) per initiative count, what does the ability to parry more than once per action do for a character?

He can only parry 1 weapon from each attack if he does not have paired weapons himself. If the 3 guys attacking also had paired weapons and he did not, he'd only be able to parry 3 of the 6 weapons. Having WP Paired Weapons allows him to parry all 6 weapons. A paired weapons attack is 1 attack (1 roll) with 2 weapons. 1 weapon will hit unless the guy parrying also has 2 weapons.

[ZorValachan]

By the rules, that is my reading-take on things.

Offensively works great against non-paired opponents

Defensively works great against paired opponents

I always felt that if a player wanted to play defensive they should get a shield, Offensive should get paired weapons. Otherwise paired weapons is keeping your cake and eating it too.

You asked what was a reason that paired weapons would be of more use that 1 weapon within the rules. I gave 1 reason. But in my house rules, i switched things up a bit.

House rules I used in the past:

#1 allowed character to only 'automatically' parry 1 opponent per every odd level they hit. So at level 1 they can parry all attacks against 1 opponent (any additional parries take away from actions). At level 3 they could auto-parry 2 opponents, etc.

#2 Shields were the only way to parry ranged fire. Auto-parry against 1 person per level.

#3 Paired Weapons I allowed it so if he was attacked by 2 people with 1 weapon each, he would roll 1x and possibly parry both opponents as an auto-parry. Or if attacked by more people or weapons chose which people/weapons he was parrying against. So basically 2x my rule #1

#4 Two-handed weapons got 2x PS bonus (using whole body to fuel the blow, not just part).

I played this way for a long PFRPG campaign and it worked very well. Gave a reason that in one way or another each choice had a merit over the others. With MDC not allowing PS bonuses, I am not sure how the 2handed 'merit' would be... maybe more + to strike or a - to the parry roll. weapon.