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Nightbane....
Should they have a armor rating? Personally I would say No as they are the appearance of metal and such but not truly such. Although they can and have been able to manipulate mechanical things with their morphus so well.... No I better stick to my guns. No armor rating.

Zenvis wrote:Nightbane....
Should they have a armor rating? Personally I would say No as they are the appearance of metal and such but not truly such. Although they can and have been able to manipulate mechanical things with their morphus so well.... No I better stick to my guns. No armor rating.

In genearl, I agree they should not.

If it's not naturally occurring armour I don't think they should have a naturally occurring armour rating.

Well, guess what? It effectively is metal, or bone, or hide... not just the "appearance" of such. At least, as long as Kev agrees with me.

So, you may be able to guess from that one of the things I included in my portion of the manuscript.

I voted no as I believe their bodies just have the appearance of different materials but are still organic.

Heres another thought, going against the supernatural and their weapons of mass destruction should A.R. then apply only to conventional weapons (man made)?

They should have an AR, many supernatural creatures in Palladium do have AR, there's no reason why the Nightbane, as supernatural creatures, should not also have AR. Especially since many morpheus traits are metal, bone, or just tougher skin and all give SDC bonuses.

I think they should start at an AR of 8 and top out at 14 nothing higher than that. Ones that appear totally human should not have an AR, but any that have leather or costume should start at AR 8 and a Nightbane that looks like a stone or iron golem should get a 14.

runebeo wrote:I think they should start at an AR of 8 and top out at 14 nothing higher than that. Ones that appear totally human should not have an AR, but any that have leather or costume should start at AR 8 and a Nightbane that looks like a stone or iron golem should get a 14.

If you start with an armor rating of 8 that should apply to every circumstance of Nightbane. It would explain how there are heroes and gods of legend in the past; Nightbane that looked human but had exceptional resistance to human weapons of war.

NIGHTSPAWN/bane Have always been shapeshifters, and the books Never said that they wer not. As such they Are made of metal if they are Made of metal! What's the dispute?

If CJ & Kevin and All the other writers tell you something like "They're shapeshifters", then you ask "What are they, are they shapeshifters or not? You at PB are being so vauge about things!" one should ask You the question of "Why answere your question if your gona just ignor it?". BLANK Yes they should have an AR! The books call them decendant of the greatest shapeshifters, so why are you putting extra contradictory assumptions that N-Spawn are Not metal wen the books Never said "It's Just fer looks"?

Not all Nightspawn/bane/breed are the same, and some will be made of Metal that looks and feel like skin, others will look and feel like they're made of metal but a cut to a peice of said metal will cause bleeding and reveal that it was just fer show. Yet others will look like flesh And be so, while others will look and feel to be metal (Just like any APS: Ala Heroes Unlimited) and will IN fact Be metal. So YES!!! AR them, If made of Diamond give them an AR of 20 fer all I care <just make it cost them perm PPE like with gun limbs>.

Frankly, AR's mean very little to me to begin with since your gonna get killed just a little slower with a high one, than a medium AR. It kills nothing to have the game this way as, fight generaly are intended to go in favor of the Bane, the rest of the game is all "Story" just like it is in Aberrant. Sure you got a high SN PS & AR, but story wise (just like with HUL's power of Invulnerability, your seldom gona deal with it unless your GM's a PC Killer, than your gonna Need that pathetic stat called the AR).

Remember, the power of N-Bane to shapeshift is NOT the HU power of polymorph, where it's all looks...And frankly, even that power gives you an AR now come to think about it. The changes are often very Real (Depending on whether or not the Player wishes to make the metal "Just Flesh" or Not)

. wrote:NIGHTSPAWN/bane Have always been shapeshifters, and the books Never said that they wer not. As such they Are made of metal if they are Made of metal! What's the dispute?

Um... no.

I ain't saying that a nightbane who looks like he's made from metal is or isn't actually made from metal, but your reasoning is kinda dodgy. "They're shapeshifters" just means that they shift their shape (hence the term shapeshifter). It says absolutely nothing about whether or not they're transmuting bits of their own bodies into inorganic materials or not, so it's anyone's guess whether a Nightbane who looks like he's iron-plated really is iron-plated, or whether he's still flesh and blood and just has some growths that look like slabs of iron.

Nightbane do not need an AR, with there extreme regeneration. High as **** sdc and HP there is no need for them to be even more tough with adding in AR to the mix as they stand they are balanced against what they face. adding AR would make them too powerful.

Besides, as is being shown in my current nightbane game. There's no reason Barbie/Ken Nightbane can't use human armor. A Barbie Nightbane Sorcerrer could theoretiaclly enchant a suit of HI-B3 Body Armor so it even helps aginst Darkblades.

Sounds fun Nekira, Any openings in your game?

Marcethus wrote:Nightbane do not need an AR, with there extreme regeneration. High as **** sdc and HP there is no need for them to be even more tough with adding in AR to the mix as they stand they are balanced against what they face. adding AR would make them too powerful.

They don't need or want fer much, but if the book gives them an AR, no biggy.
And FYI- I implyed/said they're an ultimate class of shapeshifter, which reaches into reshaping their atomic make ups as well. The BEST strait shape changer is the Amorph<Rifts Psy-scape>, and the Best shapechanger Is the Reshaper. But I've never seen it as a problem that Nightspawn have AR's, Hound got themselves an AR, +Massive Numbers, +the ability to Hunt Bane to death, PLUS dark blades which cut right through<read as "ignor"> AR's. And not all Nightbane have AR's and AR's Hardly make you invulnerable to Anything.

But if you Don't thingk they turn into other substances, than they Can't turn into Wood, Energy, nor Liquid either. Next, as per the books, when they die, they don't turn into bio-goop but rather shadow energy, so one can assume from this text (and others like those posted by CJ himself) as well as other comments in Nightspawn, that they are Not, in fact, made of flesh and bone all of the time.


But, again, your Not adding AR's in the first place, The Books are, and not to every single nightbane.

Marcethus wrote:Sounds fun Nekira, Any openings in your game?

I'm afraid not.

. wrote:

Marcethus wrote:Nightbane do not need an AR, with there extreme regeneration. High as **** sdc and HP there is no need for them to be even more tough with adding in AR to the mix as they stand they are balanced against what they face. adding AR would make them too powerful.

They don't need or want fer much, but if the book gives them an AR, no biggy.
And FYI- I implyed/said they're an ultimate class of shapeshifter, which reaches into reshaping their atomic make ups as well. The BEST strait shape changer is the Amorph<Rifts Psy-scape>, and the Best shapechanger Is the Reshaper. But I've never seen it as a problem that Nightspawn have AR's, Hound got themselves an AR, +Massive Numbers, +the ability to Hunt Bane to death, PLUS dark blades which cut right through<read as "ignor"> AR's. And not all Nightbane have AR's and AR's Hardly make you invulnerable to Anything.

But if you Don't thingk they turn into other substances, than they Can't turn into Wood, Energy, nor Liquid either. Next, as per the books, when they die, they don't turn into bio-goop but rather shadow energy, so one can assume from this text (and others like those posted by CJ himself) as well as other comments in Nightspawn, that they are Not, in fact, made of flesh and bone all of the time.


But, again, your Not adding AR's in the first place, The Books are, and not to every single nightbane.

I own all of the Current Nightbane books. And no where is there a bane that has AR to my recollection. IF there is one what book and page is he on so that I may see this?

I think he's referring to some of the optional morpheus tables from various Rifters. There were a couple in those if I remember right that offered an AR.

Like I've said, If the books got em, they got em... If they don't, don't add them.
Still, I calll it "Lipstick on a Pig"( fer all you political Nutz on Both sides), It don't change nothin, AR's are a joke to me and I seldom ever use them. AR's just make your character Look pretty, nothin much more than that.

I did vote yes. Simply because it has it in the book and this is generally an SDC world and not an MDC world.

Yes and No

I do think certain morpheus options should get AR. See to me AR is what I would call "Hard duribilty" and the extra SDC/HP is what I would call soft duriblity. It's the difference between Superman and Wonder Woman. Both take a punch just fine but one of them shruggs off bullets and knives alot easier. So I think that certain bio-mechanical, bone, stone, ect. effects should have AR representing certain attacks just bouncing off of them.

on the other hand HELL NO, bane's are almost too powerful as it is, through in a natural AR and they'd be through the roof. Of course on the other hand my experience has been that banes fold to automatic firearms due to that lack of AR while hounds/hunters act nearly invincible because of it.

Yes. THey want it... they NEED it.

YES Nightbane who have someform of Protection Feature should have an AR.
Heck, All should have AR to a degree. I'd say start at 6 for no Armor looks.
AR 6 for Normal Looking ppl NB
AR 8-10 for Leatherboys
AR 11 for Leather Armor
AR 12 - 15 for anything more...

Funny thing is Armor Ratings do not apply againt Supernatural PS.
Anyone with Supernatural PS can/do ignore Armor Ratings as presented in NB.
So ARs are only useful against mundane attacks, like from normal people, etc...
So they should have ARs in NB to me. At least against normal people, etc...

YES Nightbane who have someform of Protection Feature should have an AR.
Heck, All should have AR to a degree. I'd say start at 6 for no Armor looks.
AR 6 for Normal Looking ppl NB
AR 8-10 for Leatherboys
AR 11 for Leather Armor
AR 12 - 15 for anything more...

Funny thing is Armor Ratings do not apply againt Supernatural PS.
Anyone with Supernatural PS can/do ignore Armor Ratings as presented in NB.
So ARs are only useful against mundane attacks, like from normal people, etc...
So they should have ARs in NB to me. At least against normal people, etc...

TechnoGothic wrote:YES Nightbane who have someform of Protection Feature should have an AR.
Heck, All should have AR to a degree. I'd say start at 6 for no Armor looks.
AR 6 for Normal Looking ppl NB
AR 8-10 for Leatherboys
AR 11 for Leather Armor
AR 12 - 15 for anything more...

Funny thing is Armor Ratings do not apply againt Supernatural PS.
Anyone with Supernatural PS can/do ignore Armor Ratings as presented in NB.
So ARs are only useful against mundane attacks, like from normal people, etc...
So they should have ARs in NB to me. At least against normal people, etc...

Nowhere does it say that SNPS ignores AR. The Darkblades ignore all non magical AR's but nothing anywhere in all 5 of the books does it say that AR is completely ignored by SNPS.

The hounds are a special case. Their AR is ignored when they are attacked by SN characters or Magical Weapons along with taking full damage.

In general terms, armor from your form will provide extra SDC, but not an armor rating for the same reason that leather armor takes damage when you hit it. Now if your form is metal or the like, then possibly you might get an AR when facing normal humand not using weapons because you might be hard enough to resist human level strength. Only if your Morpheus form is one that would have a Natural AR should the GM consider giving you the same...because Natural AR is the only kind that counts when your armor is part of your body.

I agree Alan. The bonus SDC is the extra Armor from the form there is no need for Nat AR or any form of AR for the nightbane.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Besides, as is being shown in my current nightbane game. There's no reason Barbie/Ken Nightbane can't use human armor. A Barbie Nightbane Sorcerrer could theoretiaclly enchant a suit of HI-B3 Body Armor so it even helps aginst Darkblades.

I know it's there in the rule book... but I don't allow nightbane to be magic users in my games.

Specter wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Besides, as is being shown in my current nightbane game. There's no reason Barbie/Ken Nightbane can't use human armor. A Barbie Nightbane Sorcerrer could theoretiaclly enchant a suit of HI-B3 Body Armor so it even helps aginst Darkblades.

I know it's there in the rule book... but I don't allow nightbane to be magic users in my games.

Why not?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Specter wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Besides, as is being shown in my current nightbane game. There's no reason Barbie/Ken Nightbane can't use human armor. A Barbie Nightbane Sorcerrer could theoretiaclly enchant a suit of HI-B3 Body Armor so it even helps aginst Darkblades.

I know it's there in the rule book... but I don't allow nightbane to be magic users in my games.

Why not?

Yeah Why Not? They make damned good mages.

He probably figures thst young Nightbane are too busy learning about their new forms and powers and fighting a war to learn magic right. Olderr Nightbane might have the time though, so perhaps that was not what he meant.

If canonical text states that some morphi receive AR, then those morphi receive AR.

In YOUR game, feel free to vary your mileage.

Xar wrote:If canonical text states that some morphi receive AR, then those morphi receive AR.

In YOUR game, feel free to vary your mileage.

Thats the thing there is no canon morphus that gives AR IIRC. I think some of the Rifter ones may but nothing in the 5 actual canon books

I suppose we'll just have to leave it up to each GM. I can check it out at this time. Although in the SDC games usually have the AR system attached.

Marcethus wrote:

Xar wrote:If canonical text states that some morphi receive AR, then those morphi receive AR.

In YOUR game, feel free to vary your mileage.

Thats the thing there is no canon morphus that gives AR IIRC. I think some of the Rifter ones may but nothing in the 5 actual canon books

Cool by me, then. I couldn't remember. If something new canonical comes out that has AR, I won't have a problem with it, though.

I am not sure I would have a problem with it either but I personally don't think its necessary to do so.

No GM should have a problem with it. They just need to make up their own minds about it!

I would suggest, however, that if you start adding ARs to things, you likewise decrease the bonus SDC by about 5% per point of AR above 4.

Mark Hall wrote:I would suggest, however, that if you start adding ARs to things, you likewise decrease the bonus SDC by about 5% per point of AR above 4.

That's pretty extreme. Why decrease it?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:I would suggest, however, that if you start adding ARs to things, you likewise decrease the bonus SDC by about 5% per point of AR above 4.

That's pretty extreme. Why decrease it?

Because AR and SDC both represent the ability to ignore damage. A natural AR of 6 is about 5% less likely to be damaged than an AR of 5; an AR of 18 means that you're 60% less likely to be damaged. A commensurate reduction in SDC is only reasonable; otherwise, you're overpowering them from what was intended.

Mark Hall wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:I would suggest, however, that if you start adding ARs to things, you likewise decrease the bonus SDC by about 5% per point of AR above 4.

That's pretty extreme. Why decrease it?

Because AR and SDC both represent the ability to ignore damage. A natural AR of 6 is about 5% less likely to be damaged than an AR of 5; an AR of 18 means that you're 60% less likely to be damaged. A commensurate reduction in SDC is only reasonable; otherwise, you're overpowering them from what was intended.

I largely disagree, simply because of the nature of defences. You don't just stand there and take SDC (usually). You parry/dodge it. and with the PP boost all Nightbane get, that bonus can range from about +6-+10 or higher with levels and skills.

In general, rolls of a d20 range from 8+, meaning usually the other guy has to have already rolled 14 or higher to actually hit someone.

In short, in practice, AR is genearlly useless because any attack that hits bypasses it.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:I would suggest, however, that if you start adding ARs to things, you likewise decrease the bonus SDC by about 5% per point of AR above 4.

That's pretty extreme. Why decrease it?

Because AR and SDC both represent the ability to ignore damage. A natural AR of 6 is about 5% less likely to be damaged than an AR of 5; an AR of 18 means that you're 60% less likely to be damaged. A commensurate reduction in SDC is only reasonable; otherwise, you're overpowering them from what was intended.

I largely disagree, simply because of the nature of defences. You don't just stand there and take SDC (usually). You parry/dodge it. and with the PP boost all Nightbane get, that bonus can range from about +6-+10 or higher with levels and skills.

In general, rolls of a d20 range from 8+, meaning usually the other guy has to have already rolled 14 or higher to actually hit someone.

In short, in practice, AR is genearlly useless because any attack that hits bypasses it.

In practice, yes. However, it is the ultimate in "Oh ****" defenses. When you cannot parry or dodge because you're surprised, an AR is an automatic, minimum, parry. If you rolled poorly, your AR is a standing defense.

Mark Hall wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:I would suggest, however, that if you start adding ARs to things, you likewise decrease the bonus SDC by about 5% per point of AR above 4.

That's pretty extreme. Why decrease it?

Because AR and SDC both represent the ability to ignore damage. A natural AR of 6 is about 5% less likely to be damaged than an AR of 5; an AR of 18 means that you're 60% less likely to be damaged. A commensurate reduction in SDC is only reasonable; otherwise, you're overpowering them from what was intended.

I largely disagree, simply because of the nature of defences. You don't just stand there and take SDC (usually). You parry/dodge it. and with the PP boost all Nightbane get, that bonus can range from about +6-+10 or higher with levels and skills.

In general, rolls of a d20 range from 8+, meaning usually the other guy has to have already rolled 14 or higher to actually hit someone.

In short, in practice, AR is genearlly useless because any attack that hits bypasses it.

In practice, yes. However, it is the ultimate in "Oh ****" defenses. When you cannot parry or dodge because you're surprised, an AR is an automatic, minimum, parry. If you rolled poorly, your AR is a standing defense.

Yes, but that dosn't warrent the SDC reduction you note because how powerful attacks in Nightbane are. Seriously. If you give them a decent AR of 14 and take away half their SDC your making them far weaker then they were in the first place because they'll die from the powerful attacks in nightbane. Even a regular hound does a pretty decent number.

This is why the Nightbane do not need an AR of any sort at all.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Yes, but that dosn't warrent the SDC reduction you note because how powerful attacks in Nightbane are. Seriously. If you give them a decent AR of 14 and take away half their SDC your making them far weaker then they were in the first place because they'll die from the powerful attacks in nightbane. Even a regular hound does a pretty decent number.

That's a peculiarity of Hound and Hunter weapons, however... not everyone's spear goes through AR like butter. An AR of 14 means they can ignore a good portion of gunfire, and close to 50% of regular weapon attacks (assuming a reasonable maximum to strike is 30, when it is frequently lower). They're more vulnerable to Hounds and Hunters, but that's not because ARs are bad, but because their opponents are nasty. If you LEAVE their SDC at the previous level, then they're not only good against Hunters and Hounds, but against everything else, too.

An average Nightbane starts with 2D6*10 SDC that wouldn't be touched by this. The reductions would come depending on their enhancements, not their core; if the snake feature "Scaly Skin" came with an AR of 10, you'd see a 30% reduction, or taking a 1D6*10 down to 1D4*10 (the bottom remains the same, but you lose about 18 SDC off the top).

Sounds like a good idea there Mark.

neither yes or no. depends on the morphus.

Mark Hall wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Yes, but that dosn't warrent the SDC reduction you note because how powerful attacks in Nightbane are. Seriously. If you give them a decent AR of 14 and take away half their SDC your making them far weaker then they were in the first place because they'll die from the powerful attacks in nightbane. Even a regular hound does a pretty decent number.

That's a peculiarity of Hound and Hunter weapons, however... not everyone's spear goes through AR like butter. An AR of 14 means they can ignore a good portion of gunfire, and close to 50% of regular weapon attacks (assuming a reasonable maximum to strike is 30, when it is frequently lower). They're more vulnerable to Hounds and Hunters, but that's not because ARs are bad, but because their opponents are nasty. If you LEAVE their SDC at the previous level, then they're not only good against Hunters and Hounds, but against everything else, too.

An average Nightbane starts with 2D6*10 SDC that wouldn't be touched by this. The reductions would come depending on their enhancements, not their core; if the snake feature "Scaly Skin" came with an AR of 10, you'd see a 30% reduction, or taking a 1D6*10 down to 1D4*10 (the bottom remains the same, but you lose about 18 SDC off the top).

I'm actually refering to the fact that between PP, HTH at average 4-6th level and WP bonuses of the same, the average hounds strike bonus's are so high that they'll never roll below your AR in the first place that you don't parry.

I'll grant...an NSB agent with a handgun is gonna be screwed aginst a bane with AR of 18. Then again, if your NSB agents last more than 3 attack's your Nightbane players arn't thinking

I have a Bane Charater Im running now and he is Bio-Mechanical (sorry about the spelling) He has both the Inner Skeloton and the outer. and he allso have the Power Armor thing in hmm #15 Rifer. And thats what he looks like to is a almost 10 foot tell power armor with 4 arms What should his AR be? ATM the GM gave me a AR of 30. He is using some other books with SPs and some of the Armored Vehicles have up to 45 AR so i guess thats why he gave me a 30 is that to much?

Well, you're using differant system of AR play... In effect you're using a Hardness system. I use one as well based on Palladium Books PV/PEN system, it's based on multipling that value by x10 (IE I move the decimal point over one space) so a PV of 3.4 equals a 34 UPS (Universal Protection System).

This system Already exists in the real world and is called the Mohs Hardness scale. Example, a PV 10.0 of is the Hardness of Diamond and 10.0 on the Moh's Hardness scale is as well.
In Strait palladium MDC systems, 100 SDC equals 1 MDC, and 1 MDC is classed as being Diamond hard (Meaning you Must apply 100 sd worth of force to do scratch MDC matterials). So a 'Smaller' amount of PV/Moh's like, say, 7.5 would equal 75 UP! This is equal to very hard metals and would mean that doing Any damage below that number just scuffs the target (Just as in the case of MDC matterials).
Bone is about 30-40 hardness so I'd say Your setting is right if your using soft metals but 45-50 is closer.


The players LUV this system... It's fast and works great.


The problem is that we don't know what your system is so we can only speculate on it. Additionally since you can NOT tell us what system you're using (If differant from PB) we can't help much in the since that is a Breach of Forum Rules.... So PM me with your games rules (As in PB or not) and we'll see if it is something that we CAN discuss here or not. AR's everyones talking about here are more like those of oldschool D&D... Based on your strike roll and not actual damage (Not the best system but, not too very many peeps complain about it). Personally I use them Both.

As AR