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and the day he got convicted of robbery in 2008.

I remembered this event with some of the guys that were there and we all ran around shooting at each other.

Just to clarify a few things, the actual operation was called Gothic Serpent, not "Blackhawk Down". Blackhawk Down was the name Mark Bowden gave to his series of articles chronicling the battle, and was later used as the title for his book, and the Movie based on the book. In addition to Rangers, Delta, and pilots from the 160th (SOAR), TF Ranger included USAF Pararescue Techs (PJs) and Combat Controllers from the 24th Special Tactics Squadron (24 STS - they're the guys that support Delta and the Navy's DEVGRU), Special Operations Weathermen from the 10th Combat Weather Squadron, SOF Tactical Air Controllers (SOF TACP), attached to the Rangers, and Navy SEALs from the USN's Naval Special Warfare Development Group (four of them were awarded medals for bravery under fire for their actions).

personally I would much rather hear about SFC Randall Shughart and MSG Gary Gordon than some two bit hoodlum. Shughart and his spotter intentionally engaged an angry mob in an attempt to save the lives of the crew of a downed blackhawk.

To give some of you some perspective. Randy Shughart started the day with ony 180 rounds/ nine magazines for his rifle and Gordon had an unknown number of magazines for his CAR-15(probably 13). Still they managed to hold off a numrically superior force for all of ten long minutes.

Rockwolf66 wrote:personally I would much rather hear about SFC Randall Shughart and MSG Gary Gordon than some two bit hoodlum. Shughart and his spotter intentionally engaged an angry mob in an attempt to save the lives of the crew of a downed blackhawk.

To give some of you some perspective. Randy Shughart started the day with ony 180 rounds/ nine magazines for his rifle and Gordon had an unknown number of magazines for his CAR-15(probably 13). Still they managed to hold off a numrically superior force for all of ten long minutes.

In addition both operators had their pistols (match grade .45 cal. pistols), and the weapons and ammo they scrounged from the wreckage. In addition, Mike Durant, and at least one other crew member were still alive, and both were armed with HK MP-5K SMGs. Durant's not sure who was alive in the back, but he remembered hearing gunfire from the HK, in addition to the M-14 and CAR-15. Both Shughart and Gordon were crack shots (Delta shot a LOT), and were picking off Somali's left and right, so the Somali's were a little hesitant to advance on the crash site.

A score I found a while back by Edgen Animations

http://h1.ripway.com/Greenmars/Black_Hawk.mp3

Scott Samson wrote:It was 15 years ago today that 18 men of Task Force Ranger became some the first causalties in the modern war on terror. (took approx. 1000 Somalia's with 'em)

Well, it probably started in Afghanistan, circa 80s...

Peacebringer wrote:A score I found a while back by Edgen Animations

http://h1.ripway.com/Greenmars/Black_Hawk.mp3

Scott Samson wrote:It was 15 years ago today that 18 men of Task Force Ranger became some the first causalties in the modern war on terror. (took approx. 1000 Somalia's with 'em)

Well, it probably started in Afghanistan, circa 80s...

I guess the author of that quote forgot about Lebanon, or the various terror attacks against US citizens throughout the 80s and 90s.

Scott Samson wrote:When Oct 3rd happened I went to my Lt. and volunteered to go back over there to get some payback. He advised me that we would not be going back, that Clinton decided to pull the plug on Somalia.


Jeff Hansen

First off thank you for your service in that *hole.

Secondly according to rumint, after Oct 3rd the warlords over there were afraid that the American's had finally gotten some sense and were really going to take down the warlords. Insted of finishing the job BJ Clinton pulled everyone out prematurly and left everything in a greater mess than when we first when in there. It can also be said that BJ Clinton's "peacekeeping" adventures started an International Image of a Weak US government.

Well, after the event Clinton got a very clear message from his boss (ie opinion polls of the American people) and they said he should pull the troops out of there.

Scott Samson wrote:We contolled mogadishu in the beginning. We had a few skirmishes here and there. However, once Clinton took over and bowed to the UN, he allowed it to become unwinnable.

He should not have had the M1 Abrams Tank, Cobra Helicopters or the Spectre Gunships removed from the country. With that firepower taken away the army had to rely on the Blackhawks and little birds to provide cover fire. If the weaponry I just mentioned had of been there, one blackhawk might have been shot down and there would not have been that many American casualties.

Bush Sr. moved US troops in there as part of a UN resolution. How was this Clinton's "Fault" when he was only following the precedent set by Bush Sr. and worked with the UN?

Removing specific military hardware, such as tanks, doesn't sound like a job the President would do. I don't think that was his decision.

Secondly, why all the hatred for "BJ Clinton"?, Bush jr. was a cheerleader. That's worse than getting a BJ.

Well , been doing a little research on my own and found this written by the USAF Air Command and Staff College.

Still wading through but a few things of note I found.

1) The US military forces active in the area at the time were primarily there for logistical support for the UN peacekeepers who were expedted to bear the brunt of conventional military operations (and indeed the Pakistani light armoured force got sevrely mauled in the lead up to the battle fufilling that role). The small force of US combat troops was taksed as a quick reaction force. Quick reaction forces don't generally travel with heavy armour wich is why these assets were not available in theatre - with only 2 hours warning on the mission in question there wasn't time to assign it for this operation.

2) The AC-130s were pulled back after a series of strikes previously in an effort to convince Aidid to negotiate. When the mission was thrown together, there wasn't time to bring them in. That being said, most of the action happened during daylight hours and the AC-130s, which are highly vulnerable to shoulder fired SAMs don't operate during the day so they may have not been able to participate even if they were in theatre.

So there are sound military reasons why the Tanks and the Spectres were not available for the op.

The article I found puts the blame on both civillian and military leadership for commtting a lightly armed special operations force into a situation that required a signifigant pressence of conventional military force.

Scott Samson wrote:You can make excuses for the clown all you want. The facts are facts. You can look it up if you like, there were several documentarys made referencing what I'm talking about. The blame rests on his shoulders in my book.

First of all, I'm finding it hard to find where exactly did President Clinton specifically removed the Abrams and Cobra helicopters, as your Lt. Col. said. Secondly, I find it disrespectful, unprofessional and unpatriotic that you'd call your former commander and chief a, "Clown" or smack talk his decisions. I find Bush completely lacking in is leadership, yet I support his decisions.

Anyway,

Gentlemen, I started this post as a tribute and remembrance to the men that died on October 3rd 1993, not to debate about the merits of Clinton's actions/non actions in Somalia.

Before this post gets out of hand (and before I start having unpleasant flashbacks)and delves into areas that I really could care less about, I request it to be locked.

No, no, no, no. You started this by bashing Clinton. You stated Clinton's "Faults".

No way. I see what you're doing here.

Yes, 18 Americans died, and 200-1,000 Somalis died as well. They should all be remembered. Remembered that war, is the last resort. And war is a failure of diplomacy.