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Interesting magic scroll hax
Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:10 am
by Glistam
I know the words on a magic scroll can't be recorded or copied, and even on a tech level data files which are considered magic scrolls can't be copied. But a thought occured to me today in regards to a character with the major super power of Holographic Memory Projection.
WHAT IF this character, by virtue of his powers, was able to overcome the limitation of scrolls to be copied or reproduced and actually create a holographic image of any scroll which he has seen, including the words? Would he just be able to use a spell over and over again, for free? Or would he still have to pay the PPE cost of the spell in order for it to function? How would you adjucate this?
Re: Interesting magic scroll hax
Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:24 am
by Library Ogre
I would say that it still wouldn't function. Scrolls don't work simply because of their words. The premium of the spell Create Scroll essentially creates a matrix in which another spell can be held, until released by holding the object (the scroll) and reading the words.
Re: Interesting magic scroll hax
Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:56 am
by AlanGunhouse
On the other hand, a characxter who has the ability to cast magic normally who also has some version of a photographic memory or holographic reproduction power might be able to LEARN a scroll at a single glance. That would still require the person to expend PPE to cast it, but would take less than the normal eight hours a spell level to learn. It would be a GM call though.
Re: Interesting magic scroll hax
Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:13 am
by Glistam
I was having a slow day at the office and my mind just started wandering on tangents. Specifically this thought occured to be because the Scroll spell makes a big deal about how the words can't be captured: "no camera of any kind can photograph/record the mystic writing (appears blank) and for some inexplicable reason, a person can never seem to copy the spell no matter how literate and educated he may be." So I started thinking of what might happen if, somehow, someone could copy the writing and reproduce it exactly.
Re: Interesting magic scroll hax
Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 3:57 pm
by Prysus
Greetings and Salutations. Okay, I have a few thoughts, and a question. First I'll ask the question ... where does it state that it will disappear from cameras and such? I looked on page 191 of R:UE and it's not there, and I looked in my main book of PF 2nd Edition and didn't see it there either. Seeing as the 191 of R:UE says little at all, I'll go on the writing in PF, page 105 unless I get a different source to work from. Okay, onto the actual thoughts.
As Mark Hall said, it's not about the words themselves. Now, the fact that the moment you read any part of a scroll other than the title it may activate helps prove this. If it was the words you'd have to read it in its entirety, nor do you have to speak them aloud. Now, the reason this lets the wizard possibly convert it is not because of the words, but because of the magical reaction which is about to occur.
Palladium Fantasy, Second Edition, Page 105 wrote:Once read, the scroll is activated and magic energies flow about the wizard as he attempts to mold and control them.
Now, to me, that shows that its' more the magical reaction the wizard is trying to learn from, not the words. It's like pushing the "start" button on a machine and once pushed it won't work again. You can watch what it does and hope you figure out enough to reproduce it. However, no matter how well you remember how the "start" button looks it won't help you learn how the machine looks. Photographic image all you want and it's still just a "start" button and won't give any real help. Also, attaching the same "start" button to a random item doesn't mean it will cause it to act like the machine nor does it mean it will start anything at all.
It's like a chemist trying to figure out what chemical components something is made up from by only watching the chemical reaction. If you don't have a clue seeing the same reaction over and over again won't really help either. Having an idea, but not being able to figure it out is the equivalent of your unstable spell result. You continue to play around with the formula hoping to get it right. Okay, now this is just a really rough example and I never cared for science much myself so forgive any mistakes in the chemistry example, but I think it should give the rough idea regardless. Anyways, just some random thoughts to try and explain why it's a one shot deal (at least from the source I know, not sure if it's described differently somewhere else). Hope it helps. Farewell and safe journeys.
Re: Interesting magic scroll hax
Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 5:25 pm
by Glistam
Prysus wrote:Greetings and Salutations. Okay, I have a few thoughts, and a question. First I'll ask the question ... where does it state that it will disappear from cameras and such? I looked on page 191 of R:UE and it's not there, and I looked in my main book of PF 2nd Edition and didn't see it there either. Seeing as the 191 of R:UE says little at all, I'll go on the writing in PF, page 105 unless I get a different source to work from.
Page 185 of the original Rifts RPG is where I pulled the quote above from.
Re: Interesting magic scroll hax
Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:52 pm
by Prysus
Hmm ... yeah, that sure was different. Of course, I had been reading the notes on converting scrolls into spells. In the PF book it mentions that even skimming the scroll could result in activating it. In the spell description itself it mentions it must be read aloud. Go figure. Maybe I misinterpreted something. I think I like the interpretation in the Wizard O.C.C. better on how sensitive it is (personal preference). I think it gives a better feel making the words less meaningful and it's the power in the scroll itself that is important. Reading the spell, it does specifically state that those are the words of the spell and they have to be spoken aloud. Personally, I don't see what would stop a wizard from reading the scroll (mentally, not aloud) and practicing the spell until they've perfected it. Then there is no need to copy the words. Now, the spell version does mention that "no matter how literate and educated he may be" the spell can't be copied down. I guess that means it has some mystic property that you can read it aloud, but if you try to do anything else with it somehow your mind gets clouded and you forget or something. So I guess it's how you view it. If you think of it as a clouding of the mind then no ability or power will be able to get around the fact. If you think it's a mystic ability to erase the paper/picture then you can probably just try to memorize it before using the scroll (unless you say it would erase your memory, in which case you could never convert a scroll to a spell in the first place). If you go with the description in the scroll conversion description (PF) then the words are meaningless (it states scroll magic and spell magic are different, similar, but different) so it doesn't matter if you can learn them or not. Now, mind you, this is just going by the rules ... which almost seem a bit contradictory. I know which I like best and would use in my games, but I guess it just comes down to what the GM wants done in their games. I know that sounds like a bit of a cop out, but there isn't much more when it gets that vague and/or contradicting. Ultimately to figure out if there is a way around it you have to figure out how it works/what's stopping you first. I tried to give the main possibilities I could see from reading the various sources. I doubt it helped much. Farewell and safe journeys.
Re: Interesting magic scroll hax
Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:36 am
by AlanGunhouse
Prysus wrote:Hmm ... yeah, that sure was different. Of course, I had been reading the notes on converting scrolls into spells. In the PF book it mentions that even skimming the scroll could result in activating it. In the spell description itself it mentions it must be read aloud. Go figure. Maybe I misinterpreted something. I think I like the interpretation in the Wizard O.C.C. better on how sensitive it is (personal preference). I think it gives a better feel making the words less meaningful and it's the power in the scroll itself that is important. Reading the spell, it does specifically state that those are the words of the spell and they have to be spoken aloud. Personally, I don't see what would stop a wizard from reading the scroll (mentally, not aloud) and practicing the spell until they've perfected it. Then there is no need to copy the words. Now, the spell version does mention that "no matter how literate and educated he may be" the spell can't be copied down. I guess that means it has some mystic property that you can read it aloud, but if you try to do anything else with it somehow your mind gets clouded and you forget or something. So I guess it's how you view it. If you think of it as a clouding of the mind then no ability or power will be able to get around the fact. If you think it's a mystic ability to erase the paper/picture then you can probably just try to memorize it before using the scroll (unless you say it would erase your memory, in which case you could never convert a scroll to a spell in the first place). If you go with the description in the scroll conversion description (PF) then the words are meaningless (it states scroll magic and spell magic are different, similar, but different) so it doesn't matter if you can learn them or not. Now, mind you, this is just going by the rules ... which almost seem a bit contradictory. I know which I like best and would use in my games, but I guess it just comes down to what the GM wants done in their games. I know that sounds like a bit of a cop out, but there isn't much more when it gets that vague and/or contradicting. Ultimately to figure out if there is a way around it you have to figure out how it works/what's stopping you first. I tried to give the main possibilities I could see from reading the various sources. I doubt it helped much. Farewell and safe journeys.
In many primative areas, the few people who can read are poor readers who have to sound the words out as they read them.
Re: Interesting magic scroll hax
Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 2:13 pm
by Nekira Sudacne
Glistam wrote:I know the words on a magic scroll can't be recorded or copied, and even on a tech level data files which are considered magic scrolls can't be copied. But a thought occured to me today in regards to a character with the major super power of Holographic Memory Projection.
WHAT IF this character, by virtue of his powers, was able to overcome the limitation of scrolls to be copied or reproduced
Then you're already breaking all established rules and there's no logical way to rule on it within the rules. Just make up a yes/no that makes you happy and flow with it.
Re: Interesting magic scroll hax
Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:12 am
by Glistam
Nekira Sudacne wrote:Glistam wrote:I know the words on a magic scroll can't be recorded or copied, and even on a tech level data files which are considered magic scrolls can't be copied. But a thought occured to me today in regards to a character with the major super power of Holographic Memory Projection.
WHAT IF this character, by virtue of his powers, was able to overcome the limitation of scrolls to be copied or reproduced
Then you're already breaking all established rules and there's no logical way to rule on it within the rules. Just make up a yes/no that makes you happy and flow with it.
Indeed.