Undead Hunters and 12 Holy Stars?

[Reagren Wright]

I know many people on the boards here don't like the Undead Hunters because they
are very imbalancing in a game. I'm hoping "Mysteries of Magic" or "Yin Sloth Jungle 2nd
edition" will be able to reintroduce these O.C.C. so they won't be and people can
enjoy playing the classic fighter/wizard O.C.C. I do hope the problem that these guys are
walking around with 12 magic throwing stars is addressed. If you just add up the
basic fact that each star magic powers (return to wielder, eternally sharrp, and
indestructible) cost 105,000 gold, then add its ability to turn into a fireball (3D6) and that
it does double damage to undead and animated dead your looking at what an additional
35,000 to 50,000 gold, and the guy gets 12 of these . The guy has 1.7 million gold in
magic weapons and their never sold or traded in public for any reason . They are not
available at alchemist shops and they're incredibly rare . If you run into four of these
guys, they got 48 magic throwing stars between them and that's considered incredibly
rare. And they won't trade them? You've got 12 and they return to wielder, its not like
your going to miss just one. And whose making all these magic throwing stars? I like how
the note in the O.C.C. mentioned the Orbs of Force can only be aquired at four remote
temples and each UH knows of only two, but you fall into the river and loose your
backpack. You show up at any training center and say hey I lost my holy stars, yet]
some guy says, "Hey no problem we got a box of them over there on the shelf."

I hope the writers of both manuscripts have addressed this flaw. Just give them two,
maybe three at most. Or someone remind Kevin with private messages when he starts to
edit either manuscript and tell him "only two, only two."

[drewkitty ~..~]

To address some of the problems you see.

1) The Undead hunters are equipped by the training center for their job, but that training center is in the middle of hard to get no-where. So they can't easily travel back there to 're-supply' when they 'level-up'. Therefor, the training center supplies each Undead hunter with ALL the weapons they can so they can do their jobs. Because they are not financed by normal means, the "monitory" prices that their weapons would fetch in the world at large do not come into the equation.

2) As to why undead hunters don't sell or triad their weapons, if you can't get replacements for the tools of your triad, would you sell them off? Not when you have to worry about loosing your tools in combat and the only replacements are a pain in the donkey to get to/find.
Remember, the PF environment is NOT one like you live in now, where just about anything is available at the touch of a keyboard or a trip to the mall.

3) Most Undead hunters usually travel and hire out singly. with each traveling his or her own path in life. Sometimes pairing up with other UH's, but mostly hiring out with merc groups to do their monster hunting. So you're not going to see more then 2 UH's in a group unless the gods move them together to fight a world threatening problem.

[Veknironth]

Well, I'll add a few more things to this. One, if you look at a lot of the Undead Hunter NPC's in the books, they seem to be devoid of a lot of that starting equipment. Is the equipment recieved by the UH supposed to be meted out as they increase in level and reknown, or is it all bequeathed at the end of trainng (1st level) with total trust? The former seems more realistic to me.

Now, as for selling, we had a campaign where an Undead Hunter did just that. Well, he traded it for some enhancements to armor and for a fancy new weapon. Paired weapons just isn't the same if you don't have 2 powerful items. Now, we didn't have the chance to play it out, but there was going to be a reckoning. The GM was going to have another UH show up with the star and ask him how that happened. The punishment wasn't determined just yet, but I'm sure it would have been severe.

I suspect that the UH's would have some sort of system of eyes and ears around Palladium that would be able to report to the powers that be that one of their items is on the market. I also would expect that they would be labeled in some way to ascertain who lost his or her weapon. IT could be a mystical form of identification or something as simple as a serial number. There would also be some psychic impressions left.

-Vek
"Man, I would have loved to see that come uppance."

[Entiago]

Yeah they have alot of power. the spells, magical items, and able to fight in melee as well.

But remember, they go up against the bad asses. Undead. Vampires, deamons, deevils, ect. They put it all on the line from level 1, and it keeps getting worse.

Although 12 stars to start is too many IMHO, maybe 4- seems better for some reason. Making players start to use their brains on how to fight, not toss 12 stars and say "PURIFY"...but still a good OCC if I may say so.

[The Dark Elf]

Slight alteration. How about playing they return when thrown but if you change them into a fireball then they are gone forever?

Btw, I think undead hunters are more powerful initially but they arent overbalanced if you GM them right. They re not interested in gaining more spells and dont have magic combat and they are not intersted in wealth but the vanquishing of undead and monsters. Highly driven, motivated, maybe obsessed?

They are sent out into the world ready to hunt undead from day one and it shows but by a few levels mind mages, wizards, summoners etc. would be right up there with them. Man at arms OCC's, well you shouldve joined the undead hunters..

[drewkitty ~..~]

If it returns to wielder, why need more than 1? 2nd Edition should just give them 1.

maybe because it takes an apm to reaturn to the weilder.

Slight alteration. How about playing they return when thrown but if you change them into a fireball then they are gone forever?
...snip

This is the way I play it.

Thou, thinking about it. When the 2nd ed UH's are presented in the Mysties of Magic book, the stars might need recharging before they can be used as fireballs again.

[Veknironth]

Well, I guess the question is how would you stop it? I have seen a campaign where an Undead Hunter did just what has been said. He sold 1 star to get a lot of other equipment. It made much more sense for him to trick out his armor and to procure another magic weapon and still have 11 stars left over. The chnaces of using 11 stars up in a day is very, very slim but the chance of using armor and another weapon (especially with paired weapons) is pretty good. The hope is you have a player who chooses the UH and decides not to sell the star to improve the character. However, PC's are notorious for trying to eek out any advantage they can. The UH could even rationalize it saying that he doesn't need all the stars he was given and he can be a much more effective UH with additional equipment.

Either you have some higher power step in and punish the PC for this transgression or you just prevent him or her from doing it by saying "Your character wouldn't do that". Neither is a great option, although Iprefer the 1st.

-Vek
"Not a fan of the UH."

[Veknironth]

Well, another option would be to have them somehow linked to a particular UH. Thus, it would only work for that particular person. That would definitely deter people from selling them. It still seems like 12 is a hefty humber of stars to issue.

-Vek
"I'm a Palladium Message Board star and there is only 1 of me,"

[Vidynn]

we had an Undead Hunter in a campaign once, we used the 2nd ed. conversion that was online around here a (long) while ago (probably in the old FAQ, cant remember, but still have the file). I (GM) toned down the magic items a little and never had a problem. well, the campaign-style wasnt power-gaming, nor would the player ever have thought about selling items that his PC considered this important for his quests, his occupation, his honor and his faith.

[DiceCollector]

How many first level Undead hunters could "kill" a Vamp with 1 to 4 stars??? Not many, that I know of!! Yes, Undead hunters start with alot of "magic" items, but most are ineffective verses living beings. Undead hunters are GREAT verses Undead, verses monsters/living beings they can just hold there own.

[Library Ogre]

The real problem for any particular faith in raising its profile is overcoming the Church of Light and Dark. They are the big fish in the pond, and pretty much any gains will have to be at their expense.

The thing is, though, they're a very comprehensive pantheon... something for almost everyone in that pantheon, meaning most people won't see a lot of reasons to leave them.