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I'm not talking about in terms of "how does the genius do that", but rather "what does the ability look like to everyone else"? The best I can figure is that the NMG goes up to a vehicle, looks at it for a while, then declares it "not so bad" and says something like "An oil change, a few new belts, and she'll be running great!" And it does, because he's a magic man.

Wildcat from talespin.

though obviously ATB players don't have to be as scatterbrained.

"well, i duh uh... could slap together a plane in two hours with the parts i got. oooh, and since i only have half the parts, it should take only half as long!"
"yeah, but will it fly/"
"ha ha will it fly? will it fly?.......might""

I've always interpreted it that the character has to tinker with the machine for a few minutes. After that the vehicle, soda machine, blender... whatever, starts working again. The important thing is, the character must spend some time working on the object for this power to work (read the first paragraph of NMG).

I'm a bit fuzzy about how the saving throw (reliability) works in relation to this power. If the roll fails, does the NMG need to try again - counting towards the half-dozen attempts before total failure?

i agree. the character has to actually tinker with the thing for a bit to make it work. but i'd say that the visual is basically "how the heck did you know/do that?", with NMG characters being able to do things normally trained mechanics/engineers swear couldn't be done with the tools and parts available.

So I would imagine that the character would need to have at least partial hands.

http://bp0.blogger.com/_GYrG3emM6S0/Rim ... upport.jpg

or something equivelent. i suspect an octopus with all those tentacles could repair a device, it would just look like an odd process to the rest of us.

ah, i had forgotten there already was a mutant octopus template...i'd say those partial hands are supposed to represent the prehensile tentacles...

but, yeah. you'd need at least partial hands to operate tools and stuff, and thus to use NMG. if you don't have that option, you need to take the ability that gives you a pair of psychic hands.

most mutants would have at least partial hands, even in "old skool" ATB, AKAIK. the combination of NMG and the psychic hands would probably be a rare mutation, and really should only be considered for roleplaying purposes. if your going to pick NMG, you really need to design the character around that ability to some extent, so you might as well pick up hands while you do it. even if it means skimping on other abilities or having to take some extra vestigle traits to get enough Bio-E.


aren't partial hands usually cheaper than psychic hands anyway?

i was saying that the lack of hands would generally be rare overall. and unless the player wants the challenge of playing a handless mutant who uses psychic hands and NMG together, most players who choose to take NMG will also have a character with at least partial hands.


NMG requires BIo-E to be spent to get it. but thats not exactly what i mean. i mean that a character taking NMG would probably invest in mechanical and electrical skills, to augment their NMG ability. which means your choice of OCC's will be a factor.

but largely it boils down to the fact NMG is a fairly signifigant ability. one that you can't really just say "oh, and he's got NMG as well". if you create a character with NMG, your generally going to pick OCC's, skills, and physical traits that benifit that character, which contribute to making that character who he/she is. NMG is not usually a "tack-on" ability but one that helps form the core of a character concept.

as for the costs of hands, well, the whole point to a Bio-E system is give and take. to get some things, you have to sacrifice others. which the addition of vestigal features and other disadvantages only helped to contribute too. NMG and hands too high a cost for your character? well the loss of strength, endurance and SDC from sacrificing size levels ot get it is the trade off for having the innate ability to build and maintain devices. or you could invest in vestigal traits to get the points, which give you a less concrete disadvantage (primarily a roleplaying related feature) in exchange.


but even that all contributes to the character design. having to sacrifice some things to get what you want allows you more interesting roleplay option. imagine for example a NMG who's colorblind. while it wouldn't stop the NMG ability, the character would have to devise some alternative to color coding for things like wires and parts. which would contribute alot to roleplay.

macksting wrote:Again, though, how do the phantasmic hands in AtB2 compare with those in Tranny TMNT?

Basically the same thing. We discussed Ectoplasmic Hands in a previous topic [here].

Comparing the TD:TMNT version of the Ecto Hands powers, and the main difference in AtB2 is that they no longer have range. The range in AtB2 is listed as "Special", and any mention of using the Ecto at range is removed from the descriptions.

Also, the "physical disabled" requirement has been removed and the final note that says "Only available to human mutants..." in TD is replaced with "Only available to mutants..." in AtB2.

Other than that they are the (copy-paste) same.

macksting wrote:I noticed it was said that NMG now costs Bio-E. Two questions.
Is NMG now explicitly a psionic power?
Either way, can anybody take it, regardless as to whether or not this is advisable?

yes, it is now one of the animal psionics, and can be taken by character that can afford it's 10 bio-E cost.

it functions the same as the old version in all respects. (compared ATB2 to roadhogs, after the distinction was made to me.)

looking at the power again, i still maintain the character has to be able to "fiddle" with the device for it to work. said 'fiddling' period is when the NMG makes it's "connection" to the machine.

another bit i noticed. it only refers to mechanical devices. so i doubt a NMG could repair, say, a hole in the hull of a boat. that isn't a machine, and thus not subject to the power. likewise i do not think a NMG could repair a computer using his powers, at least any reapirs requiring something other than connecting the parts together. though he could easily assemble incompatable computer parts into a kludgy computer. but they would not be able to repair, say, a computer chip.

which actually gives a wonderful visual for the power. The professor from gilligan's island. can build or repair just about any device using bamboo, coconuts, and sand....but could never fix a hole in the side of a boat....

glitterboy2098 wrote:likewise i do not think a NMG could repair a computer using his powers, at least any reapirs requiring something other than connecting the parts together. though he could easily assemble incompatable computer parts into a kludgy computer. but they would not be able to repair, say, a computer chip.

True, the NMG could probably get the computer to boot up, but if the OS or computer files are corrupted, you'd need someone with Techno-Mind. Now if you had someone with both NMG and TM, they would be a force to be reckoned with.

Or, you could home-brew a power called Natural Technological Genius or Natural Electronics Genius. The psionic would be a sort of NMG/TM hybrid without the ability to speak with computers.

macksting wrote:it was specified that a Natural Mechanical Genius in Road Hogs didn't have to pay the cost of the base vehicle when spending vehicle budget.
Wouldn't this imply that they can make whole sections work which shouldn't? Make repairs which should hold, etc.?

It most likely implies that the character was able to scavenge enough parts to construct the base car from scraps. The frame of a vehicle is not a "mechanical" part of the vehicle, but a "structural" part. All it does is hold the mechanical parts in place.

you know, while the power implies it's not required, i'd personally allow a character with NMG to take the normal mechanical and electrical skills needed to repair stuff (perhaps with a bonus to reflect their "instinctive" understanding), and allow the character to do normal, non-psionic dependant repairs. basically the person learned "the proper way" to fix stuff, instead of just relying on their innate ability. which would allow the NMG to make permanent repairs. but any time they use their NMG ability to "kludge" something up using unconventional parts and methods it would be subject to the normal NMG limits. though obviously they'd have to take an OCC that allows such skills.


ATB2 presents NMG in an almost orky way, where the actual mechanics are less important than the beleif by the NMG that it will work. while not on the same level as 40K ork's (which making a gun is literally a case of bolting together bitz into a gun like shape), it means a character with proper repair skills is actually more valuable in normal cases than someone with NMG. though obviously NMG is priceless when trying to get pre-crash technologies (like that quantum-thingy from mutants of the yucatan) to work.

Well, you could say that the NMG kicks in when the mechanic character fails their actual skill rolls. That way if they try to repair something that is way beyond them they are still able to get it to work, but it will eventually break down to the characters dismay.

Also, just for the fun of it, I tossed together and posted a Natural Technological Genius psionic power on my blog:
http://atbwarehouse.blogspot.com/2008/1 ... s-new.html

I made it a step between the NMG and Techno-Mind in ME requirements so that there would be some sort of divide between the powers. NMG: 8 M.E., NTG: 10 M.E., TM: 12 M.E.

road hogs assumes that the chassis of vehicles are essentually free, and the cost listed is the amount of money needed for a mechanic to fix it up into a full car. the NMG character entry probably assumes that the NMG is doing his own work, and not hiring some one else to do it.

a NMG could easily install the engine and transmission and such, and welding on "mad-max" armor and guns isn't exactly something you need a engineering degree to do. likewise it's said that finding the chassis isn't hard in the post-crash world.

i'm just telling you what's in the book.

the cost of the basic frame and the engine (speedclass) represents the labor and parts needed to get a functioning vehicle from the wrecks scattered across the landscape.

a NMG is listed (several times) as being able to ignore the base cost of said frame and engine.

again, presumably this indicates the NMG is using his power to take the inoperable wreck and repair it to function status, probably without having to go out anf buy/find other parts like a normal mechanic would.

however, the NMG is not said to be able to ignore the price of add-ons like armors and weapons. in fact, it is given $2000 as a car budget. (not really enough for more than basic armor and some extra's...but they could cram that onto a Semi-truck if they wanted...)


you ask about the car nut. yes, the car nut would probably do his own work too. but keep in mind. the car nut does not have a 100% repair skill to call on. the car nut cannot repair a broken internal combustion engine with duct-tape and a few wacks with a hammer. a car nut, even with all the needed skills, would need a few assistants to rebuild a car. and they'd still need to trade/barter/scavenge parts from other wrecks to fix up the vehicle.


(actually, i don't see "car nut" anywhere in roadhogs or ATB2. so i'm going ot assume you mean the mechanic class from RH...)

macksting wrote:

Rali wrote:It most likely implies that the character was able to scavenge enough parts to construct the base car from scraps. The frame of a vehicle is not a "mechanical" part of the vehicle, but a "structural" part. All it does is hold the mechanical parts in place.

I disagree, and firmly. Other classes must also scavenge parts to make a single working vehicle, I'm sure, or must be much more choosy in getting a working hulk of a machine in the first place, and pay a price for it. An NMG in Road Hogs did not. While I'm not sure what all is implied by this, it does have implications you don't seem to be taking into account.

First off, IT'S A GAME!

So what if the NMG in Road Hogs gets a free ride when it comes to the base vehicle. Okay, the chassis may not have been a good example; any mechanic with a winch could pull one out of a ditch in AtB. However, I think the fact that the NMG could pull an old pre-crash vehicle out of a ditch and make it work as good as new because their a NMG really should answer the question of why they don't have to pay for the base vehicle where as a real mechanic is going to be a bit more discerning when it comes to finding the parts they use to build that base vehicle. Sure they can fabricate their own, but it will cost money for the materials.

macksting wrote:I'm not too emotionally attached to a given interpretation, but please please think through your arguments with a little more precision. If you're correct, tell me why and how, not... these. This stuff was already covered.

Not a question of not thinking through an argument as much as conveying it and expressing the conclusion.

its not that others are more choosy (the bit about cars being easy to find is the explanation for the low cost listed for the basic vehicles), but more that a NMG is a "miricle worker" who can get the thing working despite it missing half the parts and substituting unconventional materials for others.

for example, a normal mechanic might need to scrounge around some of the old wrecks along the highway to find a carburator that will fit their vehicle, while a NMG can just bolt on an old tincan with some holes cut into it for the piping.


the exact wording of the NMG exception is:

Step 1: basic vehicle
the basic vehicles in road hogs are free. during the big death, cars, motorcycles, and trucks were left scattered across the landscape. some sections of road are unused simply because they're jammed with cars that attempted to escape the holocaust.
getting cars is easy. making them work is another problem. the costs below represent the necessary replacement parts and specialized labor needed to get a vehicle working. NOTE: a mechanical genius character can use any of these vehicles without having to spend money on parts. the usual restrictions apply

step 2 details buying speed classes (engine+ suspension alignment), and how without buying more speed classes, the vehicle has a class 0 engine and alignment, or a mere 5mph speed.

no specific exception to the price is given for NMG, but it makes sense given the high prices for most of the speed classes that a NMG should be excepted or be given a discount. (otherwise that $2000 budget restricts you high speeds with only bikes or big vehicles only at slow speeds, and minimal optional equipment or weapons/armor for either.)

now it's not even really a big issue, since NMG is a power, not a class. so while i'd say the exception for base vehicle cost is probably still valid, the NMG could be any of the other classes, giving them from $4000 to $12000 (IIRC) to work with. with those amounts, there would be no need ot give exceptions for speed class costs.