Supernatural PS and melee weapons question

[csbioborg]

you add the two tgoether

supernatural ps + weapon damage

[csbioborg]

Would that be the supernatural punch damage or the damage bonus? I'm guessing punch but it doesn't hurt to be sure. Also, is this only the case in items with a physical core element, IE you wouldn't add strength to a Psi-Sword?

correct on both counts lightsabres don't get punch damage added

[Talavar]

Psi-swords have some physicality to them - they can parry physical blows, so they should still get the punch damage added. The Wilk's Laser Sword can't, so wouldn't get a strength bonus.

[ZorValachan]

This is canon, not some house rule or common sense rule

Pg 32 of the Rifts Game Master Guide:

Q: Do Hand to Hand P.S. damage bonuses apply to energy melee weapons?
A: No damage bonuses apply to the use of energy melee weapons unless there is a physical component to the weapon involved. Not even if the attacker has supernatural strength.
For example, with a Psi-Sword, Flamming Sword, or energy sword, only the weapon damage applies, any P.S. damage (supernatural or otherwise) is not added.
However, a Vibro-sword uses a physical core and so damage bonuses can be applied to this weapon. The same is true of rune weapons and TW weapons which have an actual cutting blade and such.

[Mouser13]

I'm trying another Research roll, but losing Sanity fast!
(oops, wrong game.)

Again, an attempt to decipher the development of the Mega Damage bonus conundrum. This time from the books themselves.

Rifts Collector's Edition-August 1995
The term Supernatural Strength is not used. The only MDC melee weapons in the book are Vibro-Blades on page 205. All other examples of MDC melee attacks are listed with specific creatures, dragons, robots, or bionics.

Rifts Conversion Book, fifth printing-October 1996
Page 26.
I think this is the first appearance of the Supernatural Strength Mega Damage table. It was originally intended to convert the damage of creatures coming from an SDC world into the MDC world of Rifts.
Notice it specifically says 'PS bonuses are added to SDC attacks'.
Does not mention any MDC bonus, or weapons at all.

Rifts Sourcebook, seventh printing-June 1998
Page 5
"Question: Does the P.S. bonus apply to MDC weapons like vibro-blades?
Answer: NO!..."
We knew that. But wait, it goes on to say:
"...Of course, MD bonuses from power armor, bionics, and robotics is added to the mega-damage total inflicted by MDC weapons like vibro-weapons and hand to hand combat..."
The two damage rolls stack here, yet no specific mention of Supernatural Strength.

Heroes Unlimited Revised Second Edition, fifth printing- March 2004
Page 284
"Supernatural Strength P.S Damage Table...
...Supernatural Damage and Hand Weapons:When wielding a melee weapon, such as swords, clubs and knives, a supernatural being inflicts the weapon damage plus P.S. damage as described in the previous table."
Although it is an SDC world, we have an example of one damage roll stacking with another damage roll.

Nightspawn, first printing- August 1995
Page 35
"Supernatural damage and hand weapons: When wielding a hand weapon, such as swords, clubs and knives, the supernatural being rolls for both its basic hand to hand damage and the weapon's damage."
Worded different, same meaning.

Rifts Game Master Guide, second printing- August 2002
Page 25
Rifts Chaos Earth, first printing- June 2003
Page 101
Beyond the Supernatural Second Edition, first printing- January 2005
Page 135
"Supernatural" Physical Strength
Hold your index and middle finger of both hands in the air and make the "quotation marks" gesture as you read the word "Supernatural".
Like the entry in the Rifts conversion book, the table specifies that P.S. bonuses are added only to SDC attacks.
Page 26
"Supernatural Damage and Hand Weapons: When wielding a hand weapon, such as swords, clubs or knives, supernatural beings inflict either the weapon damage plus P.S. damage bonus or their basic hand to hand bonus (see previous table) plus P.S. damage bonus, whichever is greater"

So lets break that down.
Supernatural beings inflict the greater of either-
A. Weapon damage plus P.S. damage bonus
.or.
B. Hand to hand damage based on the table plus P.S. damage bonus.

But the table says the P.S. damage bonus is only added to SDC attacks.
So this statement must be talking about SDC.
What about MDC?

Rifts Ultimate Edition, first printing- August 2005
Page 286
"Supernatural Damage and Hand Weapons: When wielding a hand weapon, such as swords, clubs or knives, supernatural beings inflict either the weapon damage plus P.S. damage bonus (in SDC), or their own P.S. damage as per Supernatural Strength, whichever is greater."

Breakdown:
Supernatural beings inflict the greater of either-
A. Weapon damage plus P.S. damage bonus (in SDC)
.or.
B. Their own P.S. damage as per Supernatural Strength.

According to the latest Rifts rules it's either one damage roll or the other.

So there you have it, for whatever it's worth.
I say play however you want to play and have fun.

Further debate on this matter can only lead to madness.

THis is from a old post on the forumns
http://forums.palladium-megaverse.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=78766&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=weapon+damage&start=50

The offical answer is the RUE is correct use whichever is greater though I always played under the add PS damage togather.

[Talavar]

This is canon, not some house rule or common sense rule

Pg 32 of the Rifts Game Master Guide:

Q: Do Hand to Hand P.S. damage bonuses apply to energy melee weapons?
A: No damage bonuses apply to the use of energy melee weapons unless there is a physical component to the weapon involved. Not even if the attacker has supernatural strength.
For example, with a Psi-Sword, Flamming Sword, or energy sword, only the weapon damage applies, any P.S. damage (supernatural or otherwise) is not added.
However, a Vibro-sword uses a physical core and so damage bonuses can be applied to this weapon. The same is true of rune weapons and TW weapons which have an actual cutting blade and such.

I knew I had read that somewhere, thanks on the quote. I think I'll have a discussion about it with the players and decide whether they want to accept it or not. I mean after all, it may apply for some of them, but it will also apply for the enemies they face. I understand it on the basis on the general terms, but items like psi-swords or any of the various swords created via a magic spell I could see argued for. Thanks for the canon quote and everyone who has participated on clearing this up.

Except it's not canon anymore. RUE trumps it, and RUE gives the nonsensical "punch damage OR weapon damage, whichever is higher." If you want a ruling that makes sense, if you can parry with it, it can add a damage bonus. If you want canon, you don't get any damage bonus on MD melee weapons.

[Vrykolas2k]

As with everything else Palladium, some rules don't agree with others.
I use the older rule which allows the punch and weapon damages to stack.
Some use the rule from the GM's guide (which I thumbed through and decided it wasn't worth buying).
Just pick the rules you and your group like and stick with them.

[ZorValachan]

Except it's not canon anymore. RUE trumps it, and RUE gives the nonsensical "punch damage OR weapon damage, whichever is higher." If you want a ruling that makes sense, if you can parry with it, it can add a damage bonus. If you want canon, you don't get any damage bonus on MD melee weapons.

Sorry, I did not make myself clear. I was not refering to the Supernatural aspect of anything. I know, that was the point of the OP, but I was just quoting about the PS damage bonus. As I read it, R:UE giving rules about base damage being weapon or the 'punch' damage. The PS bonus is not 'base', so the R:UE rule is separate and they do not cancel each other in this circumstance.

Back when Rifts first came out I sent a letter (snail mail) to Palladium Books asking about PS bonuses. AlexM replied with a 'yes'. Later, the Sourcebook Book 1 said 'no'. I always used the 'yes' as it was handwritten and sent back to me personally

Personally, I add both weapon and supernatural (or robotic, or augmented) damage together, then add PS bonus if a 'solid' core. I like my monsters to be nasty and mean.