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Of course, if it was TW armour with the Impervious to Energy spell in built it would protect the armour.

This sort of ambiguity is annoying. Take the Impervious to Energy ability of Mystic Knights. No specific mention of it extending around the armour or clothing is there either, yet in Madhaven it clearly implies that the Knights of the White Rose are not effected by the energy aura of a flying mount that only they can tame and common sense dictates that they would not ride such a beast naked.

Personally, I see the spell as creating an aura that does indeed include the armour and carried equipment. Its just far more logical to me, and the fact that the RAW makes no mention of it extending over armour, nor does it specifically state that it does not, which is enough for me.

It effects armour, just like the Mystic Knight immunity and the Burster immunity.

If you look at an ability with two possible interpretations, but one of them makes it useless, why choose that one?

My rule is the same as my standard "aura" rule... for the most part, it will cover anything within a handsbreath of the person's body. That means that normal armor will be covered, but power armor generally will not.

Mark Hall wrote:My rule is the same as my standard "aura" rule... for the most part, it will cover anything within a handsbreath of the person's body. That means that normal armor will be covered, but power armor generally will not.

Yup.

Talavar wrote:It effects armour, just like the Mystic Knight immunity and the Burster immunity.

If you look at an ability with two possible interpretations, but one of them makes it useless, why choose that one?

since when has the mystic knight immunity affect armor

csbioborg wrote:

Talavar wrote:It effects armour, just like the Mystic Knight immunity and the Burster immunity.

If you look at an ability with two possible interpretations, but one of them makes it useless, why choose that one?

since when has the mystic knight immunity affect armor

Since the author of Madhaven said so? Yeah, since then.

Talavar wrote:

csbioborg wrote:

Talavar wrote:It effects armour, just like the Mystic Knight immunity and the Burster immunity.

If you look at an ability with two possible interpretations, but one of them makes it useless, why choose that one?

since when has the mystic knight immunity affect armor

Since the author of Madhaven said so? Yeah, since then.

what page is that on in Madhaven?

csbioborg wrote:

Talavar wrote:

csbioborg wrote:

Talavar wrote:It effects armour, just like the Mystic Knight immunity and the Burster immunity.

If you look at an ability with two possible interpretations, but one of them makes it useless, why choose that one?

since when has the mystic knight immunity affect armor

Since the author of Madhaven said so? Yeah, since then.

what page is that on in Madhaven?

Well, unless you think they ride the warbird mounts naked, it must effect their armour.

It goes back to the second half of my original statement though: if there are 2 possible interpretations of a power, but one of them is fundamentally useless, why pick that interpretation?

Talavar wrote:It goes back to the second half of my original statement though: if there are 2 possible interpretations of a power, but one of them is fundamentally useless, why pick that interpretation?

I think that this is a great way to look at this issue, amongst others.

londonbaz wrote:

Talavar wrote:It goes back to the second half of my original statement though: if there are 2 possible interpretations of a power, but one of them is fundamentally useless, why pick that interpretation?

I think that this is a great way to look at this issue, amongst others.

Agreed.

It's similar to my axiom of "If there are two or more ways to legitimately interpretation a given rule, then a person who chooses the stupidest interpretation has no reason to gripe."

Its easier to have the Imp. to E. to affect the stuff the char is wearing too.

Ajax wrote:I'm gonna have to say it depends on what is granting the impervious to energy. If it's a Spell or TW device then I'd say it protects the person's gear as well. As why waste time with a spell that won't protect your stuff when you can waste time with a spell that will such as armor of ithan or some of the other force-fieldy spells.

As for innate abilities, I'd say no unless it specificly says so. As a creature that is immune to fire do to it's hide doesnt make his equipment immune to fire. But a creature immune to electricity because it projects a field would have his gear protected.

The point about innate abilities is well made. If it's a natural characteristic of the creature's body, then it doesn't apply. However, if they generate it psionically or magically (like a Mystic Knight or Psi-Slinger), then I'd have it extend to cover armor, as well, unless otherwise noted.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

londonbaz wrote:

Talavar wrote:It goes back to the second half of my original statement though: if there are 2 possible interpretations of a power, but one of them is fundamentally useless, why pick that interpretation?

I think that this is a great way to look at this issue, amongst others.

Agreed.

It's similar to my axiom of "If there are two or more ways to legitimately interpretation a given rule, then a person who chooses the stupidest interpretation has no reason to gripe."

In a strictly platonic way I think I love you.

Our group used to have a player that did this ...it didn't take long before I warmed to the idea of PvP.

Mark Hall wrote:

Ajax wrote:I'm gonna have to say it depends on what is granting the impervious to energy. If it's a Spell or TW device then I'd say it protects the person's gear as well. As why waste time with a spell that won't protect your stuff when you can waste time with a spell that will such as armor of ithan or some of the other force-fieldy spells.

As for innate abilities, I'd say no unless it specificly says so. As a creature that is immune to fire do to it's hide doesnt make his equipment immune to fire. But a creature immune to electricity because it projects a field would have his gear protected.

The point about innate abilities is well made. If it's a natural characteristic of the creature's body, then it doesn't apply. However, if they generate it psionically or magically (like a Mystic Knight or Psi-Slinger), then I'd have it extend to cover armor, as well, unless otherwise noted.

But where do you draw the distinction? Is a fire dragon or a demon immune to fire because of their skin, or because of inherent magic?

Talavar wrote:But where do you draw the distinction? Is a fire dragon or a demon immune to fire because of their skin, or because of inherent magic?

That's the rub, really. I'd say that, in most cases, it's going to be a "skin" (i.e. physiology) thing, but when you're dealing with powerful creatures of magic and supernatural beings, it can go either way. In the case of both dragons and demons, I'd be inclined to go the "inherent magic" route, simply because they are so awesomely powerful.

Mark Hall wrote:

Talavar wrote:But where do you draw the distinction? Is a fire dragon or a demon immune to fire because of their skin, or because of inherent magic?

That's the rub, really. I'd say that, in most cases, it's going to be a "skin" (i.e. physiology) thing, but when you're dealing with powerful creatures of magic and supernatural beings, it can go either way. In the case of both dragons and demons, I'd be inclined to go the "inherent magic" route, simply because they are so awesomely powerful.

If you can't skin the creature and make super-fireproof leather out of its hide, then it's the magic that makes them fireproof, not the flesh.

Know of any creatures offhand that mention being able to be made in to such leather?

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:

Talavar wrote:But where do you draw the distinction? Is a fire dragon or a demon immune to fire because of their skin, or because of inherent magic?

That's the rub, really. I'd say that, in most cases, it's going to be a "skin" (i.e. physiology) thing, but when you're dealing with powerful creatures of magic and supernatural beings, it can go either way. In the case of both dragons and demons, I'd be inclined to go the "inherent magic" route, simply because they are so awesomely powerful.

If you can't skin the creature and make super-fireproof leather out of its hide, then it's the magic that makes them fireproof, not the flesh.

Know of any creatures offhand that mention being able to be made in to such leather?

This is an excellent point

Ajax wrote:Just to keep this one going(because it's a really good and thought provoking thread), who's to say that the inheirent magicly ability isn't in the skin and when the creature dies the magical ability dies with it?


A my revised take on the matter is this,

Psychics/practitioner of magic: Spells and Psychic abilities as noted in the spell/power description. OCC special abilites, read them as they are. Bursters it states thier immunity acts as an aura, Psi-Slingers it states that thier power extends only milimeters from thier body so only normal clothing or only the thinest and lightest MDC suits would be covered as well. With Mystic Knights, it's just them baby and nothing else.

Creatures of magic: Skin based unless stated it's a projected field or aura like ability.

Supernatural Creature (Lesser): Power manifests on a skin level, does not protect armor or items, unless stated that the power is a projected field or aura like ability.

Supernatural Creature (greater): Power acts like an aura encasing the creature, unless noted as being natural physical effect, protecting close fitting armor or weilded weapons.

We know the ability, if physiologically based, doesn't die with the creature, because the properities of some creatures' skins can be preserved in supernatural leather armour.

Also, why do people keep trying to make Mystic Knights' ability useless? You might as well be saying they're immune to energy, except on days that end with 'y'.

Ajax wrote:Just to keep this one going(because it's a really good and thought provoking thread), who's to say that the inheirent magicly ability isn't in the skin and when the creature dies the magical ability dies with it?

Anybody who's zapped a creature with his laser gun and seen that the unharmed creature still has hair/fur/scales.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:My rule is the same as my standard "aura" rule... for the most part, it will cover anything within a handsbreath of the person's body. That means that normal armor will be covered, but power armor generally will not.

Yup.

Same. My group goes a step further and applies it to both natural & magical. It keeps it simplier that way.

Talavar wrote:

csbioborg wrote:

Talavar wrote:It effects armour, just like the Mystic Knight immunity and the Burster immunity.

If you look at an ability with two possible interpretations, but one of them makes it useless, why choose that one?

since when has the mystic knight immunity affect armor

Since the author of Madhaven said so? Yeah, since then.

The author of Madhaven made no such distinction. You are incorrect. In fact the author has seemingly gone to great lengths to show that Mystic Knights can not impart thier abilities to thier armor, or anything except themselves.

To prove my point look at the TW Light Shapers. Quote: Page 84 of Madhaven: "Many knights have the techno-wizards incorporate these weapons into their armor so that they constantly have a weapon and means of defense."
"Means of Defense". Hmm. The ONLY defense this TW item gives is a Laser Shield, which can be used to parry lasers, fire, plasma, particle beams, ion weaponry, energy bolts, electricity, and other energy attacks. But it's USELESS against any kinetic attack.
So why would the Mystic Knights ever want or even need such a device if thier powers protect thier armor and/or items already???? Especially since this TW item imitates the Mystic Knights natural powers exactly, yet does indeed take damage when used????

No, I'm sorry to burst your bubble. But the Mystic Knights powers only effect their bodies, and not thier items. Obviously the knights that ride the war birds must use a special saddle to protect not only their armor and items, but thier TW Storm Lance that is atached to said saddle.

Oh, and by the way......the spell impervious to energy doesn't protect anything except the recipiant of the spell either. Only the Burster states that thier abilities protect thier items.

Temporalmage wrote:

Talavar wrote:

csbioborg wrote:

Talavar wrote:It effects armour, just like the Mystic Knight immunity and the Burster immunity.

If you look at an ability with two possible interpretations, but one of them makes it useless, why choose that one?

since when has the mystic knight immunity affect armor

Since the author of Madhaven said so? Yeah, since then.

The author of Madhaven made no such distinction. You are incorrect. In fact the author has seemingly gone to great lengths to show that Mystic Knights can not impart thier abilities to thier armor, or anything except themselves.

To prove my point look at the TW Light Shapers. Quote: Page 84 of Madhaven: "Many knights have the techno-wizards incorporate these weapons into their armor so that they constantly have a weapon and means of defense."
"Means of Defense". Hmm. The ONLY defense this TW item gives is a Laser Shield, which can be used to parry lasers, fire, plasma, particle beams, ion weaponry, energy bolts, electricity, and other energy attacks. But it's USELESS against any kinetic attack.
So why would the Mystic Knights ever want or even need such a device if thier powers protect thier armor and/or items already???? Especially since this TW item imitates the Mystic Knights natural powers exactly, yet does indeed take damage when used????

No, I'm sorry to burst your bubble. But the Mystic Knights powers only effect their bodies, and not thier items. Obviously the knights that ride the war birds must use a special saddle to protect not only their armor and items, but thier TW Storm Lance that is atached to said saddle.

Oh, and by the way......the spell impervious to energy doesn't protect anything except the recipiant of the spell either. Only the Burster states that thier abilities protect thier items.

So you're saying that they ride their warbird mounts naked?

Temporalmage wrote:The author of Madhaven made no such distinction. You are incorrect. In fact the author has seemingly gone to great lengths to show that Mystic Knights can not impart thier abilities to thier armor, or anything except themselves.

To prove my point look at the TW Light Shapers. Quote: Page 84 of Madhaven: "Many knights have the techno-wizards incorporate these weapons into their armor so that they constantly have a weapon and means of defense."
"Means of Defense". Hmm. The ONLY defense this TW item gives is a Laser Shield, which can be used to parry lasers, fire, plasma, particle beams, ion weaponry, energy bolts, electricity, and other energy attacks. But it's USELESS against any kinetic attack.
So why would the Mystic Knights ever want or even need such a device if thier powers protect thier armor and/or items already???? Especially since this TW item imitates the Mystic Knights natural powers exactly, yet does indeed take damage when used????

No, I'm sorry to burst your bubble. But the Mystic Knights powers only effect their bodies, and not thier items. Obviously the knights that ride the war birds must use a special saddle to protect not only their armor and items, but thier TW Storm Lance that is atached to said saddle.

Oh, and by the way......the spell impervious to energy doesn't protect anything except the recipiant of the spell either. Only the Burster states that thier abilities protect thier items.

It's hardly "obvious" from the fluff text of a TW item - the word "defence" can apply to the Laser Shield working on magic energy - which Mystic Knights aren't immune to - and even to being able to parry with the Lightblade in melee combat. By your same logic, that sentence is proof that Mystic Knights without that TW item don't have any other weapon either, which is odd, since Mystic Knights can shoot magic energy bolts as a natural ability for less PPE.

Your explanation also requires the invention of a whole new TW construct that the book curiously fails to mention, which is more damaging to your argument than including the word "defence" in a TW item description is to mine.

And of course, as I keep bringing up, why give characters useless abilities? Really, what is the point?

Talavar wrote:

Temporalmage wrote:The author of Madhaven made no such distinction. You are incorrect. In fact the author has seemingly gone to great lengths to show that Mystic Knights can not impart thier abilities to thier armor, or anything except themselves.

To prove my point look at the TW Light Shapers. Quote: Page 84 of Madhaven: "Many knights have the techno-wizards incorporate these weapons into their armor so that they constantly have a weapon and means of defense."
"Means of Defense". Hmm. The ONLY defense this TW item gives is a Laser Shield, which can be used to parry lasers, fire, plasma, particle beams, ion weaponry, energy bolts, electricity, and other energy attacks. But it's USELESS against any kinetic attack.
So why would the Mystic Knights ever want or even need such a device if thier powers protect thier armor and/or items already???? Especially since this TW item imitates the Mystic Knights natural powers exactly, yet does indeed take damage when used????

No, I'm sorry to burst your bubble. But the Mystic Knights powers only effect their bodies, and not thier items. Obviously the knights that ride the war birds must use a special saddle to protect not only their armor and items, but thier TW Storm Lance that is atached to said saddle.

Oh, and by the way......the spell impervious to energy doesn't protect anything except the recipiant of the spell either. Only the Burster states that thier abilities protect thier items.

It's hardly "obvious" from the fluff text of a TW item - the word "defence" can apply to the Laser Shield working on magic energy - which Mystic Knights aren't immune to - and even to being able to parry with the Lightblade in melee combat. By your same logic, that sentence is proof that Mystic Knights without that TW item don't have any other weapon either, which is odd, since Mystic Knights can shoot magic energy bolts as a natural ability for less PPE.

Your explanation also requires the invention of a whole new TW construct that the book curiously fails to mention, which is more damaging to your argument than including the word "defence" in a TW item description is to mine.

And of course, as I keep bringing up, why give characters useless abilities? Really, what is the point?

Hey all, I thought I'd chime in since...well...I wrote it. The light shapers are a means for defense against magic energy attacks and the energy attacks that the Mystic knights aren't 100% immune to. Also, they will always have a ranged weapon against shadow beasts, and a melee weapon for hand to hand combat.

Also, I'd say that the impervious to energy extends to their armor. I like Mark Hall's aura rule, since it seems the best and easiest way to describe it. Personally, thats how we've always played it in our group, and as people have said here, with the warbird, it doesn't make much sense to ride your mount totally nude.

The Galactus Kid wrote:

Talavar wrote:

Temporalmage wrote:The author of Madhaven made no such distinction. You are incorrect. In fact the author has seemingly gone to great lengths to show that Mystic Knights can not impart thier abilities to thier armor, or anything except themselves.

To prove my point look at the TW Light Shapers. Quote: Page 84 of Madhaven: "Many knights have the techno-wizards incorporate these weapons into their armor so that they constantly have a weapon and means of defense."
"Means of Defense". Hmm. The ONLY defense this TW item gives is a Laser Shield, which can be used to parry lasers, fire, plasma, particle beams, ion weaponry, energy bolts, electricity, and other energy attacks. But it's USELESS against any kinetic attack.
So why would the Mystic Knights ever want or even need such a device if thier powers protect thier armor and/or items already???? Especially since this TW item imitates the Mystic Knights natural powers exactly, yet does indeed take damage when used????

No, I'm sorry to burst your bubble. But the Mystic Knights powers only effect their bodies, and not thier items. Obviously the knights that ride the war birds must use a special saddle to protect not only their armor and items, but thier TW Storm Lance that is atached to said saddle.

Oh, and by the way......the spell impervious to energy doesn't protect anything except the recipiant of the spell either. Only the Burster states that thier abilities protect thier items.

It's hardly "obvious" from the fluff text of a TW item - the word "defence" can apply to the Laser Shield working on magic energy - which Mystic Knights aren't immune to - and even to being able to parry with the Lightblade in melee combat. By your same logic, that sentence is proof that Mystic Knights without that TW item don't have any other weapon either, which is odd, since Mystic Knights can shoot magic energy bolts as a natural ability for less PPE.

Your explanation also requires the invention of a whole new TW construct that the book curiously fails to mention, which is more damaging to your argument than including the word "defence" in a TW item description is to mine.

And of course, as I keep bringing up, why give characters useless abilities? Really, what is the point?

Hey all, I thought I'd chime in since...well...I wrote it. The light shapers are a means for defense against magic energy attacks and the energy attacks that the Mystic knights aren't 100% immune to. Also, they will always have a ranged weapon against shadow beasts, and a melee weapon for hand to hand combat.

Also, I'd say that the impervious to energy extends to their armor. I like Mark Hall's aura rule, since it seems the best and easiest way to describe it. Personally, thats how we've always played it in our group, and as people have said here, with the warbird, it doesn't make much sense to ride your mount totally nude.

Thank goodness that someone semi-offical, and definitely well informed given that he has provided a HUGE % of the Mystic Knights/Knights of the White Rose lore in the game. Thanks GK. That should silence the negativity peddlers trying to make certain skills, abilities, and spells useless.

Who said anything about them riding the warbirds naked? They obviously have to use a saddle, as it says in the TW storm lance description. So why wouldn't the war bird saddle be insulated from thier natural energy?

As for being a "negative peddler", I've never stated that any ability should be usless nor take anything away from any OCC, RCC, or PCC. But at the same time I refuse to add to powers just because it's convenient to do so. The power states as written in the FOM that the Mystic Knight is impervious to energy. It goes on further to explain in depth what that energy is exactly, but fails to add that this power is extended to the Knights armor, weapons, or even underoos. There is precedence for Palladium to have added an aura protection. Look at the Burster for example. They saw fit to spell out that the bursters powers also effect thier cloths and armor. The Zapper is equally spelled out in that thier power protects thier clothing and armor also. But as Palladium did not spell out any such thing for Mystic Knights, no such thing exists. Thier powers only protect themselves.

Perhaps what your forgetting is that any race that can have psionics and magic can be a Mystic Knight. Many such races are MDC. Gee, an MDC creature as a mystic knight could almost take on the CS with impunity now couldn't they?? So who said the power was usless??? Sure as heck wasn't me.

Temporalmage wrote:Who said anything about them riding the warbirds naked? They obviously have to use a saddle, as it says in the TW storm lance description. So why wouldn't the war bird saddle be insulated from thier natural energy?

As for being a "negative peddler", I've never stated that any ability should be usless nor take anything away from any OCC, RCC, or PCC. But at the same time I refuse to add to powers just because it's convenient to do so. The power states as written in the FOM that the Mystic Knight is impervious to energy. It goes on further to explain in depth what that energy is exactly, but fails to add that this power is extended to the Knights armor, weapons, or even underoos. There is precedence for Palladium to have added an aura protection. Look at the Burster for example. They saw fit to spell out that the bursters powers also effect thier cloths and armor. The Zapper is equally spelled out in that thier power protects thier clothing and armor also. But as Palladium did not spell out any such thing for Mystic Knights, no such thing exists. Thier powers only protect themselves.

Perhaps what your forgetting is that any race that can have psionics and magic can be a Mystic Knight. Many such races are MDC. Gee, an MDC creature as a mystic knight could almost take on the CS with impunity now couldn't they?? So who said the power was usless??? Sure as heck wasn't me.

No, they couldn't. The CS makes extensive use of rail guns and armour-piercing missiles. Being immune to tech.-based energy attacks is helpful, but it's hardly overpowering, which is why I don't understand the arguments against it. A mystic knight only being immune to energy while in his skivvies is essentially useless: if his armour is destroyed, at best his attackers will waste one shot on him that doesn't vapourize the knight, and then throw a vibro-knife at him and cut him in half.

Burulovesyou wrote:

Temporalmage wrote:...
Perhaps what your forgetting is that any race that can have psionics and magic can be a Mystic Knight. Many such races are MDC. Gee, an MDC creature as a mystic knight could almost take on the CS with impunity now couldn't they?? So who said the power was usless??? Sure as heck wasn't me.

I've stopped listening right about here... Impervious to energy = taking out the cs

And there is also a large part of palladium writing that leave quite a lot of information out. They don't specifically say that it DOESN'T work over those things either. Obviously nothing short of the text staying specifically one way or another is going to change your mind, even though the writer of the points you were addressing in your former post commented. So let's just agree to disagree.

By your logic all vagabonds can fly. After all the books don't specifically say that they CAN"T.

As for the writer commenting, that's great that he clarified his intent when creating that specific item. But as he wasn't the original creator of the Mystic Knights, nor was any of his writing helpfull to either side of this argument, his opinion on the matter is just that. His opinion. As is mine.

Talavar wrote:

Temporalmage wrote:Who said anything about them riding the warbirds naked? They obviously have to use a saddle, as it says in the TW storm lance description. So why wouldn't the war bird saddle be insulated from thier natural energy?

As for being a "negative peddler", I've never stated that any ability should be usless nor take anything away from any OCC, RCC, or PCC. But at the same time I refuse to add to powers just because it's convenient to do so. The power states as written in the FOM that the Mystic Knight is impervious to energy. It goes on further to explain in depth what that energy is exactly, but fails to add that this power is extended to the Knights armor, weapons, or even underoos. There is precedence for Palladium to have added an aura protection. Look at the Burster for example. They saw fit to spell out that the bursters powers also effect thier cloths and armor. The Zapper is equally spelled out in that thier power protects thier clothing and armor also. But as Palladium did not spell out any such thing for Mystic Knights, no such thing exists. Thier powers only protect themselves.

Perhaps what your forgetting is that any race that can have psionics and magic can be a Mystic Knight. Many such races are MDC. Gee, an MDC creature as a mystic knight could almost take on the CS with impunity now couldn't they?? So who said the power was usless??? Sure as heck wasn't me.

No, they couldn't. The CS makes extensive use of rail guns and armour-piercing missiles. Being immune to tech.-based energy attacks is helpful, but it's hardly overpowering, which is why I don't understand the arguments against it. A mystic knight only being immune to energy while in his skivvies is essentially useless: if his armour is destroyed, at best his attackers will waste one shot on him that doesn't vapourize the knight, and then throw a vibro-knife at him and cut him in half.

There is no argument. Your totally entitled to your opinion, and everyone is free to play however they wish. I'm sorry if you or anyone else on these forums are offended by what is written in the books. This may or may not be how I personally play, but when addressing a question on these forums I stick with what the books state, not my own opinion/ hypothesis/ guess/ etc. The books all state the same thing. Untill somthing else gets published by Palladium to add armor or items to the mystic knights abilities; their power does not extend to them.

Temporalmage wrote:By your logic all vagabonds can fly. After all the books don't specifically say that they CAN"T.

As for the writer commenting, that's great that he clarified his intent when creating that specific item. But as he wasn't the original creator of the Mystic Knights, nor was any of his writing helpfull to either side of this argument, his opinion on the matter is just that. His opinion. As is mine.

An opinion that just happens to belong to the man that has written more about the Mystic Knights (albeit a splinter faction) than anyone else, even the inventor of the O.C.C? An opinion whose very obvious (to anyone not stubbornly holding on to an interpretation that has proven obsolete, impractical and useless mechanically) implication about the efficacy of the Impervious to Energy ability extending to armor and equipment, much like a Burster's aura, that got through the PB editing process and ended up in print. So, overall, not an opinion "like yours", but a far more informed opinion that we should respect as a pretty good and solid indication of the intent of the ability from day one.

Temporalmage wrote:There is no argument. Your totally entitled to your opinion, and everyone is free to play however they wish. I'm sorry if you or anyone else on these forums are offended by what is written in the books. This may or may not be how I personally play, but when addressing a question on these forums I stick with what the books state, not my own opinion/ hypothesis/ guess/ etc. The books all state the same thing. Untill somthing else gets published by Palladium to add armor or items to the mystic knights abilities; their power does not extend to them.

I'm not offended by what is written in the books, I'm offended by the sanctimonious, patronizing way you've been arguing your side of this. It may surprise you to learn that not everyone is going to interprete written information in the same manner when unclear language is used (See almost every heresy and schism in Christianity). To suggest only your interpretation is the valid one because it's yours is what's offending me here. The books don't state the ability applies to flesh only and the books don't state that it applies to their immediate belongings. We're both interpreting this ability based on other evidence, evidence I measure against usefulness in gameplay. So, yes, there is an argument, and no, the books don't all state the same thing - and I don't believe you personally think that either: why quote from the fluff text of a TW item in your initial argument, if you could have just quoted where the book states the ability doesn't apply to their armour or items?

Temporalmage wrote:As for the writer commenting, that's great that he clarified his intent when creating that specific item. But as he wasn't the original creator of the Mystic Knights, nor was any of his writing helpfull to either side of this argument, his opinion on the matter is just that. His opinion. As is mine.

You are right, but it should be noted, you're not going to get any more official than GC in regards to MK.

Just to note, I think when a writer pretty much gives his FYI, it should be taken canon until otherwise. For one it makes sense. They are closest to the big K, and have an obviously shared vision, which is why they got printed and continue to work freelance. The next reason is that, if not, the argument will never end. The last reason is you have something in writing (granted it's on a message boards, but it's the best your gonna get).

Oh, and the last last reason, to continue arguing after someone who could be as close to official as possible leads to bad precedence. Cause then they are all gonna be like "Why bother chiming it, it doesn't matter, they'll just continue to argue, and what's worse they will try to pull me in", and then you have a bunch of people who are "in the know" who simply won't share their wisdom and in the end your left right where you started, a bunch of nerds arguing over some rule with no end in sight because all the people who could chim in with the wisdom, won't...and you can forget about Kevin ever responding to a rules question like this in writing.

generally speaking, I take what they say to be canon. after all, it is in writing.

Burulovesyou wrote:Agreed with Dark Brandon, Talavar, and London, but that's why I said let's just agree to disagree. The way he is going about it is, in my opinion, rather patronizing as talavar put it. It seemed like he was just getting a tone to his argument that made it sound almost personal. There's really no point, especially when the closest thing to a canon printing has already contributed to the discussion. I could care less how he plays or patronizes everyone who thinks otherwise, my plays already have agreed upon how it will work in our game, and when/if a specific canon description is printed, we'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

Agreed!

The Galactus Kid wrote:it doesn't make much sense to ride your mount totally nude.

Unless you're trying to draw attention to the over-taxation of the peasantry.

Khanibal wrote:

The Galactus Kid wrote:it doesn't make much sense to ride your mount totally nude.

Unless you're trying to draw attention to the over-taxation of the peasantry.

Or if you enjoy the cooling breeze kissing every inch of your body.

dark brandon wrote:

Khanibal wrote:

The Galactus Kid wrote:it doesn't make much sense to ride your mount totally nude.

Unless you're trying to draw attention to the over-taxation of the peasantry.

Or if you enjoy the cooling breeze kissing every inch of your body.

This is why I do it.

When the spell is cast on a person, then the person and everything the mage is wearing. does not include vehicles the person is in.

Since, to the very best of my knowledge, NO (canon) Mystic Knight NPC has ever seen it necessary to have his or her armor enchanted with an additional "layer" of Impervious to Energy, and since the capability is nevertheless stated to be one of the KEY reasons why these Knights are so damned fearful, I'm going to have to go with the rest of the folks here who say that the Knights' innately-produced ItE field acts as an aura, not a skinsuit.

And BTW, this is coming from a guy who personally owns -and constantly reads and re-reads -everything Rifts besides "Manhunter," almost every Rifter (most of which aren't official anyway), and quite a few pieces of the Books in other modules of Palladium's games.

Talavar wrote:It effects armour, just like the Mystic Knight immunity and the Burster immunity.

If you look at an ability with two possible interpretations, but one of them makes it useless, why choose that one?

The spell affects the armor since it's an aura like the Bursters Immunity.
The Mystic Knights ability does not because it is not an aura.

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Talavar wrote:It effects armour, just like the Mystic Knight immunity and the Burster immunity.

If you look at an ability with two possible interpretations, but one of them makes it useless, why choose that one?

The spell affects the armor since it's a aura like the Bursters Immunity.
The Mystic Knights ability does not because it is not an aura.

So what - the mystic knight school uses a soap that makes their skin immune to energy? Balony.

The class's power set largely revolves around the mental manipulation of energy - they can shoot energy, they can recharge things, they can block others from accessing energy, and they can draw more ley line energy than most classes. Making themselves immune to energy is just an extension of that. It's clearly a taught mental technique that allows them to harmlessly redirect or dissipate enery directed at them, just as it's a burster's mental technique that make them immune to fire/heat.

Talavar wrote:

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Talavar wrote:It effects armour, just like the Mystic Knight immunity and the Burster immunity.

If you look at an ability with two possible interpretations, but one of them makes it useless, why choose that one?

The spell affects the armor since it's a aura like the Bursters Immunity.
The Mystic Knights ability does not because it is not an aura.

So what - the mystic knight school uses a soap that makes their skin immune to energy? Balony.

The class's power set largely revolves around the mental manipulation of energy - they can shoot energy, they can recharge things, they can block others from accessing energy, and they can draw more ley line energy than most classes. Making themselves immune to energy is just an extension of that. It's clearly a taught mental technique that allows them to harmlessly redirect or dissipate enery directed at them, just as it's a burster's mental technique that make them immune to fire/heat.

Agreed.

The mere fact that the rest of their Powers work at a distance makes it EXTREMELY unlikely -and nonsensical in terms of gameplay -for their I-to-E ability alone to be confined to their skin.

Talavar wrote:So what - the mystic knight school uses a soap that makes their skin immune to energy? Balony.

The class's power set largely revolves around the mental manipulation of energy - they can shoot energy, they can recharge things, they can block others from accessing energy, and they can draw more ley line energy than most classes. Making themselves immune to energy is just an extension of that. It's clearly a taught mental technique that allows them to harmlessly redirect or dissipate enery directed at them, just as it's a burster's mental technique that make them immune to fire/heat.

Right it makes them immune. But it's not an aura so it doesn't make anything else immune.

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Talavar wrote:So what - the mystic knight school uses a soap that makes their skin immune to energy? Balony.

The class's power set largely revolves around the mental manipulation of energy - they can shoot energy, they can recharge things, they can block others from accessing energy, and they can draw more ley line energy than most classes. Making themselves immune to energy is just an extension of that. It's clearly a taught mental technique that allows them to harmlessly redirect or dissipate enery directed at them, just as it's a burster's mental technique that make them immune to fire/heat.

Right it makes them immune. But it's not an aura so it doesn't make anything else immune.

Why? Justify that with a rationale as I've done above for my argument. They've learned how to mentally regulate incoming energy attacks and render them harmless, and it doesn't apply to anything on their person because...?

It's impossible? Clearly not - a spell and the burster do basically the same thing.

It's too much additional mass? Unlikely - some armour is quite light, and if a 300 lbs mystic knight is immune to energy, a 160 lbs mystic knight should easily fit their armour into any weight limit.

It's too big? Also unlikely - some types of armour are very thin already, and would be tighter to the body than the hair of someone with a thick head of the stuff or a large hairdo.

Basically, unless it's a skin treatment or a physiological change, their immunity to energy should include the same things as a burster's ability. It's not described as a physiological change, since there are very few limitations on who can be a mystic knight.

Care to argue that it's magic soap used at mystic knight school, or the special mystic knight skin moisturizer? Because that's about the only rationale left for the energy immunity only applying to their naked flesh

To "repeat" what was said earlier, the War Birds of Rifts: Madhaven conclusively and collectively prove that the Mystic Knights' Impervious to Energy protection extends beyond their armor.


There are EXACTLY two ways to explain how the Knights ride the flying beasts without apparent harm to their armor (no damage whatsoever is listed or even implied to happen to their armor when riding these beasts):

Either every set of Mystic Knight Armor out there is also enchanted with the I-to-E Spell -a patently ridiculous prospect due to the fact that such an armor isn't listed as being very widely available no matter where you go (except, perhaps, the world of Palladium where enchantments are far more varied).....

or

The effects of the Knights' immunity to energy extends to some small distance around them and 'most everything they are wearing.
The same way that most folks reasonably expect most protective Spell Effects to work if for no other reason than ease of Game Play and Balance.

Talavar wrote:Why? Justify that with a rationale as I've done above for my argument. They've learned how to mentally regulate incoming energy attacks and render them harmless, and it doesn't apply to anything on their person because...?

Because it's not an aura. An aura extends beyond the person to what they are wearing. It's an immunity. Like an immunity to poison.
If they were immune to poison I doubt anyone here would be arguing whether or not the hamster the Knight has in his pocket would live or not if he stepped into a poison gas cloud.

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Talavar wrote:Why? Justify that with a rationale as I've done above for my argument. They've learned how to mentally regulate incoming energy attacks and render them harmless, and it doesn't apply to anything on their person because...?

Because it's not an aura. An aura extends beyond the person to what they are wearing. It's an immunity. Like an immunity to poison.
If they were immune to poison I doubt anyone here would be arguing whether or not the hamster the Knight has in his pocket would live or not if he stepped into a poison gas cloud.

I don't know that they'd be arguing about that even if it were an aura*.









*And it may well be one, unless there's something to say specifically that it's not

Killer Cyborg wrote:*And it may well be one, unless there's something to say specifically that it's not

There is nothing to say that it is. Unlike the others that are auras which do.

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Talavar wrote:Why? Justify that with a rationale as I've done above for my argument. They've learned how to mentally regulate incoming energy attacks and render them harmless, and it doesn't apply to anything on their person because...?

Because it's not an aura. An aura extends beyond the person to what they are wearing. It's an immunity. Like an immunity to poison.
If they were immune to poison I doubt anyone here would be arguing whether or not the hamster the Knight has in his pocket would live or not if he stepped into a poison gas cloud.

That's not a rationale; that's semantics. Poison and energy weapons aren't really comparable - poisons need to be at least partially absorbed or metabolized by the body to do damage, while energy weapons do damage on contact/impact. An immunity to poison is almost certainly physiological for that reason, while, for humans, an immunity to energy weapons is almost certainly not. And if it's not physiological, treating it as anything other than an aura is pointless.

Talavar wrote:

Dr. Doom III wrote:an immunity to energy weapons is almost certainly not. And if it's not physiological, treating it as anything other than an aura is pointless.

You got some scientific research papers that back you up or are you just making that up. Because since you can't point to anything in a book that says that then that is all that you are doing. Making up an elaborate reason for you to use to justify your belief.
You want it to work that way in your game then the more power to you. I’m talking about the rules and there’s noting there to back up your belief.