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I have all sorts of house-rules for Rifts and Palladium in general. To the point that some people have wondered if I didn't just make a new game or version of the Palladium rules book. Sometimes it feels like I have.

Some of these are a work in progress, others are a final product. These cover almost all situations, in and about combat - the place where rules are the most important. I really, really need to fully read the magic/psychic sections of the book again though, as my grasp on them is remedial at best. But regular, "I'ma shoot you good!" combat is more than covered here.


Starting at the top.

THE BASICS
Initiative.

• Rolling initiative is usually the first thing you do in combat. It determines how fast you're reacting - this matters for a number of reasons, like shooting first. Initiative is a bonus stat derived from X different sources. Most people do not have an initiative bonus.
  
• Initiative is a straight-up comparison with another persons' score; roll 1d20 and add any relevant bonuses or penalties and give the total to your GM. This is your initiative for the round. There are very few select abilities that can modify your initiative once it has been rolled. If you share an initiative score with someone else, then you will act at the exact same time as them - performing a simultaineous action/attack.
  
• This is important to note because the old rule of how a simo-attack worked is no longer in effect. You cannot call a simultaineous attack anymore; it only happens (automatically) when you are on the same initiative as someone else.
  
• There are ways to modify your initiative; Holding your action can cause you to move down in the initiative ranks.* The quickdraw skill can immediately affect your score, as can being knocked down/tackled or otherwise affected by a combat manuever that reduces your initiative to 1.

*more on this in a bit.

Attacks Per Melee.

• This is now very important as this goes hand-in-hand with initiative. Everyone has a set number of attacks per round that rarely changes. This means that we can divide your attacks/actions up with a combat round evenly sinse both have a known total that doesn't change (often). A melee round is 15 seconds; personally I like counting down from 15. Why does this matter? Well now your attacks fall on certain seconds, though all attacks start at 15 (or 1 if you prefer to count up).
  
• This means that someone with 4 actions per melee will begin the melee round with an action on 15, then another on 11, the next on 7, and the last action on 3. Sinse you can rely on this like the CS always being there, write it down on your character sheet.
  Now when someone else is fighting you, you can easily see when and were they are acting. For instance, that person above is fight a Boxer who is going on seconds 15, 12, 9, 6, and 3. At the start of the round you and your opponent roll initiative, and both get 20 (total). This means that the first action that round will be simultaineous for you. Then the Boxer will get an attack on you at second 12, then you get one on him at second 11, and so on until you both act simultaineously again on second 3.
  
• If you had an initiative score of 21, then the attacks would not be simultaineous. If you used your quickdraw skill on your action during second 3 of the round, you could also bump your initiative for that action as well.
  
• If you have multiple ways of modifying your actions per melee, then note each one with a different count. For instance, say you have Robot Combat: Basic - this skill gives you one additional attack. That means that you would note that while in a suit of PA or robot your attacks come on 15, 12, 9, 6, and 3 instead of the previous total. Do this for as many different attack totals as you have. I often make characters that might have 3-4 different attack progressions! This is as simple as "normal - 15, 11, 7, 3"; "Sharp-Shooting or RC:B - 15, 12, 9, 6, 3"; "Sharp-Shooting + RC:B - 15, 12, 9, 7, 4, 1".

Attacking and Defending.

• Attacking works like this; roll 1d20 plus any relevant bonuses and penalties to strike your target. If you hit, then your opponent can choose to defend.
  
• Defending works like this; roll 1d20 plus any relevant bonuses and penalties against your opponents' roll to strike. This defensive roll must be equal to or greater than your opponents total to successfully defend; additionally you must choose to employ one of three defensive manuevers, of which only two are normally available - dodge and parry. Dodging costs your next action, unless you have auto-dodge - in which case it does not cost an action. Parry costs your next action, unless you have a combat skill (this now includes having only boxing, wrestling, or fensing, and is not limited to having atleast HtH basic or better). If you have a combat skill, then parrying does not cost an action.
  
• The third defensive option is a block-sacrifice, though I have completely reworked this ability. You can only use this skill with a suit of PA (not a robot!), or if you have a shield or suitibly large shield-like object. This is a purely reactionary ability; you must make an initiative check against the attackers' roll to strike. You can add any bonuses to parry from the shield skill, but only those specific parry bonuses apply. This is a fairly desperate manuever; all damage dealt is strictly to the arms of the armour you are wearing, unless it was an area-effect attack. Even with an area-effect attack, the head of the suit takes no damage. If you are using a shield, apply all damage to the shield first, with any excess damage then going to the arms. If the shield is suitibly large enough, this may count against area-effect attacks as well (thus protecting other extremeties and the main body in addition to the arms).
  
• Finally, the defender may Roll with the attack after determining a successful defence. This is done by rolling 1d20 plus any relevant bonuses and penalties. This always costs one action to perform.
  
• In the event of a simultaineous attack, neither side may defend (unless otherwise specified by an ability or skill such as paired weapons), but both sides may roll with the attack.

This covers the basics of combat. Now we'll get into the modifiers of combat.

ADVANCED COMBAT
Here we'll go into ranged modifiers, movement, and general modifiers, special attacks, as well as cover.

Movement
Everyone has a speed stat; this determines how fast you are moving at. This also determines what basic number is needed to hit you.
For instance, a person standing still but aware of an attack requires a roll to strike of 8 in order to be hit.

Unfortunately the speed stat is a very poor marker for walking, running, and sprinting, as well as vehicular movement. Basically the average human moves at about 30 yards per 5 seconds with a walking pace, or 90 yards per combat round at a walking pace. This is inline with a human's average speed score of 10; you can say that you are moving at 1 yard per point of speed while at a walking pace. This does not translate well to people such as Juicers, who usually have a speed stat of around 60. This would mean that they are walking at a pace most people have trouble sprinting at.

So I've changed it.

• Walking is now moving at a rate of 30 yards per combat round (15 seconds). This confers no bonuses or penalties to melee combat, but does offer a -1 to make aimed/called shots with ranged weapons. This does not increase the roll needed to strike you; it is still 8.
  
• Running is now moving at a rate of 30 yards plus your speed in yards per combat round. This includes any number up to your maximum speed stat, though players moving at 30+1 yards should be unfairly picked on for otherwise abusing the system Characters with an exceptional rate of movement, such as people with super-powers (like extrodinary speed) have a run speed equal to 1/2 their maximum speed from the power.
  
• This means that a character with the extrodinary speed power moves at 30 yards+100mph at a run. Running confers a +1 to melee-strike a target that is either still, or moving at a rate no greater than 1/2 your current running speed. Running increases the roll needed to strike you to 11. Note that this is only in relation to the attackers' own speed. For instance, if you are moving at the same rate as your target, he is still only 8 to strike. Running offers a -1 to all ranged-strike rolls, and does not allow for aimed/called shots to be made.
  
• Sprinting is now moving at a rate of 30 yards plus 2x your speed stat (in yards) over 1 combat round. For characters with a speed in mph, this means moving at a rate of 30 yards+X mph. Sprinting confers a +2 to melee-strike against a target that is still, or moving at a rate no greater than 1/2 your current sprinting speed. Sprinting increases the roll needed to strike you to 11. Note that this is only in relation to the attackers' own speed. Sprinting offers a -3 to all ranged-strike rolls, and does not allow for aimed/called shots to be made.
  
• Additionally, Sprinting and Running offer an additional +1 increase per 40mph to the roll needed to strike you. This is above and beyond the basic 11 just for sprinting/running. This caps at +10, or 400mph. Again, this is all relative to the strikers' own speed. Also note that vehicular movement is synonymous with the terms walking, running, and sprinting. a vehicle can crawl along at 30 yards per combat round, or gear it up to 1/2 their mph for a "run", and finally "sprint" at their maximum mph.

Here is the overview.

• Walking = 30 yards per combat round. no bonuses, -1 ranged-strike on aimed/called shots. 8 to hit.
• Running = 30 + speed in yards per combat round (or 1/2 your mph speed). +1 melee-strike, -1 ranged-strike, cannot make aimed/called ranged-strikes. 11 to hit, +1 per 40mph (max +10).
• Sprinting = 30 + (2x speed) in yards per combat round (or your full mph speed). +2 melee-strike, -3 ranged-strike, cannot make aimed/called ranged-strikes. 11 to hit, +1 per 40mph (max +10).

The final note on movement.
Movement is fluid and never takes an action to perform; it is a passive modifier to combat in-motion. While some movement is complex (like climbing a rope), the act of moving itself will never result in the loss of action. In the bracketed example, the act of climbing a rope (skill-use) is what results in a possible loss of action.

Shooting Modifiers
This is to govern and put numbers on all the little things that the book didn't. It is a tool used to speed up combat, and to make things abit less arbitrary or on-the-fly. This is a good approximation for people looking to accrue situational modifiers without going, "hmmm well he's in cover, in darkness, with 1000 feet between you and him so -50 to strike. But the moment you try and do the same thing, it's only worth -1. This is a fairness-tool GMs; offer the players equal benefit and they will always feel like giving more to the game.

Range.

• Short Range is the first quarter of your weapons' listed range. For a standard laser rifle that is 500 feet.
• Medium Range is the second quarter of your weapons' listed range. This is 501-1000 feet for the standard laser rifle.
• Long Range is the third quarter of your weapons' listed range. This is 1001-1500 feet for the standard laser rifle.
• Extreme Range is the final quarter of your weapons' listed range. This is 1501-2000 feet for the standard laser rifle.
• Maximum Range is a full quarter of your weapons' listed standard range. For a SAMAS railgun that is 4001-5000 feet. Note that lasers, ion, and particle weapons do not have this additional maximum increment and instead have their extreme range as their maximum range as well.

to calculate range penalties, compare them to the following list.

• Lasers and Particle weapons:
  
  • -0 Short; -0 Medium; -1 Long; -1 Extreme
• Ion and Plasma weapons:
  
  • -0 Short; -1 Medium; -1 Long; -2 Extreme; -6 Maximum (plasma only)
• Railguns and Finely-Crafted firearms (sniper-rifles, etc...):
  
  • -0 Short; -1 Medium; -2 Long; -3 Extreme; -9 Maximum
• Conventional Firearms
  
  • -0 Short; -1 Medium; -2 Long; -4 Extreme; -12 Maximum
• Crude Firearms
  
  • -1 Short; -2 Medium; -4 Long; -8 Extreme; -32 Maximum (Also known as getting lucky)

Cover
Comes in 2 types, with 4 degrees of each (I don't think splitting hairs on the extreme fractions is necessary)

Type 1: Soft Cover
Soft Cover is fully due to visibility. Any means of disregarding this sight-modifier means a shooter can hit a target as if soft cover wasn't there. It should be noted that Soft cover is relative; an MD laser considers 2-1/2 inches of SDC wood soft cover, where as a mini-missile might not.

• 1/4 Cover: -1 to ranged-strike the target.
• 1/2 Cover: -2 to ranged-strike the target.
• 3/4 Cover: -3 to ranged-strike the target.
• 7/8 Cover: -4 to ranged-strike the target.

Type 2: Hard Cover
Hard Cover will effectively stop incoming attacks made against the target before he could possibly take damage. It offers the same penalties to hit via ranged-weapons, but is definitely more effective against them when vision isn't a factor, or an area-effect attack would otherwise burn through soft cover.

• 1/4 Cover: -1 to ranged-strike the target.
• 1/2 Cover: -2 to ranged-strike the target.
• 3/4 Cover: -3 to ranged-strike the target.
• 7/8 Cover: -4 to ranged-strike the target.

It should be noted that things such as smoke can only provide either soft cover or blindness for a shooter. Soft cover from smoke is when the shooter can see a target covered by smoke. Blindess is when the shooter is covered in smoke and cannot see a target.
Note that a Blind shooter is still penalized by hard cover.

Situations and Gear
There are numerous situations that could modify your shot, such as shooting from a moving vehicle, and then there is gear that can modify the situations.

Situation

• Comfortable firing position (kneeling, laying down): +1 ranged-strike.
• Target is 10 feet tall or larger: +1 to ranged-strike for every 5 additional feet in height/width.
• Target is smaller than 3-1/2 feet tall: -1 to ranged-strike. Otherwise use targetting in relation to body-parts for additional penalties.
• Shooting from a moving vehicle: modifies the rate of move in relation to the target.
• Vehicle is travelling over bumpy or rough terrain: -2 ranged-strike.
  Vehicle is travelling over exceptionally rough terrain: -4 ranged-strike.
• Vehicle is manuevering or otherwise trying to dodge obstacles/attacks: -1 for each attempt made in a combat round (cumulative only for that round).
• Akward position (leaning half-way out a window, climbing): -1 ranged-strike.

Gear

• Scope: negates range penalties to ranged-strike.
• Thermo-graphic vision: negates soft-cover penalties to hit warm targets.
• Bipod: round up (instead of down) your ranged-strike total when using burst-fire. One aimed shot per round (with a rifle) only takes 1 action, or a called shot only takes 2 actions.
• Tripod/weapon mount: the first burst in a round is done at full bonuses. Otherwise has the same effect as a bipod.
• Nightvision: negate penalties for darkness due to lack of light.
• Mechanical cussioning: reduce the penalties for terrain conditions by 2.
• Locking Joints (cyborg/robot): negate the penalties for being in a dodging vehicle by up to 4 points.

Suprise
This is a type of situation that needs to be addressed. It is often gleaned by characters performing long-ranged attacks or ambushes. It should be noted that I have changed how suprise works.

First things first; determine if the target is suprised. This is often automatic, but might come into play in a situation where one group pulls guns on another unexpectantly.

Now that you have a suprised target - see just how suprised they are. Here's the change (and it's pretty nifty if I do say so myself). Roll 1d6 and add the target's initiative modifier to that number. Often it will be just a straight roll of the dice, but some characters such as Juicers and cyborgs (with ear-implants) will have a bonus to this roll. As do psychics with sixth sense. The number rolled is the earliest second that they can act in the suprise round!

To simplify, here is an example; You are suprised by a stealthy scout, so you roll 1d6. You get 10 after modifiers. At second 10 (counting down from 15) in the combat round is the earliest you can act. If your attacks scheme was 15, 12, 9, 6, and 3 - then you can perform an action normally on second 9 of that round.
Some characters will be able to roll at or above 15; in these cases they get all their actions, but they go as if their initiative score were 0 (they can act on the first action, but they are going last).
If you are unfortunate enough to roll under your lowest action (usually a 3), then you get no actions during the suprise round

This system of suprise may seem as if it is penalizing faster(more actions) characters, but in this pseudo-reality faster characters tend to have higher initiative scores, thus balancing out the problem.
That said, you can apply initiative penalties due to circumstances. Try not to get too crazy, as you don't want to just flat-out deny your players - you want it to seem like they have a chance to be cool and act all Neo, reacting in the time it takes to fire a gun!

Shooting, Aimed Shots, Called Shots
This section is pretty straight-forward; action type, what it does, and how long it takes. Most actions are combinable with other action-types.

• Shooting your ranged weapon - 1 action, base.
• Aiming - +1 action, in addition to shooting. Gain +2 ranged-strike for that attack.
• Called - +1 action, in addition to shooting. Hit a specific location.
• Advanced Aiming - +1 action, in addition to Aiming. Gain +1 ranged-strike for each action spent in addition to Aiming, up to +2 for two additional rounds.

It should be noted that many weapons in the book give a bonus to aimed shots; this has changed (for the most part). Most weapons that offer a bonus to aimed strikes is now a general bonus to firing the weapon. Laser pointers, and other similar equipment will always provide an immediate benefit. Only certain weapons that require the use of a scope or that says "using this weapon takes two actions" (like that NG sniper-rifle in Merc Ops). That kind of thing is only being used to indicate that using the weapon is almost always aimed shots, and that regular bonuses are not applied when firing with standard "1 action" shots.

All attacks that require more than one action happen on the last action to be used. That is, a Called, Aimed Shot will happen as soon as the character gets his third action.

Bursting
This has to be the most odd set of rulings that the book has offered. In the R:UE, as well as the previous additions, characters were penalized with a minus to strike for shooting more bullets/rail-rounds/lasers at a target. This never made an ounce of sense to me.
Instead, I have expanded the options of spamming bullets at a target.

• Concentrated Fire - The standard mode of bursting. You halve your bonus to strike in order to put the maximum hurt on a single target. Can make aimed and called shots with this fire-mode. Advanced Aiming cannot be applied.
• Spray - You fire in a wider pattern to better hit your target. You do half the normal burst-damage, but you retain your full bonus to strike. In addition to this, for every increment of 10 shots your weapon fires (beyond the first) you gain a +1 to this ranged-strike.
• Covering an area - You fire in a pattern as if to cover an area. Mark out an appropriately sized area (about 10ft x 10ft) and roll to strike against all targets within that area. You retain your full bonus to strike, with an additional +2 bonus to hit your targets. You can cover one 10ft x 10ft square per increment of 10 rounds. Alternatively you can cover the same square twice, gaining an additional +1 bonus to your ranged-strike.
  
  • Any targets hit within that area take single-shot damage (with most railguns that's 1d4-1d6).
  • If you have doubled up on an area, the targets in that area take double damage. (yes, you still get the additional +1 to ranged-strikes)
  • Additional layering effects only add a cumulative bonus of +1 to strike, and do not modify the damage further.
  • You may only hit as many targets as bullets fired! Thus a gun that only shoots bursts of 5 can only hit 5 targets!

**I have run out of time currently and will edit this post again for further information**

To continue on with the above house-rules is a proto-type for skills. This prototype is 1A - designated "A" for "aligned" to mesh with the current OCC system. I am more in favor of a Heroes Unlimited system of skills, but I understand the differences between available education on Rifts and a typical HU setting. That said, I am aiming for an OCC system more along the lines of the Merc MOS selection, to cut away useless and unwanted OCCs. No point in having 20 different, yet near completely the same Special Forces/Commando OCCs. Though there will be something to say about available training and such. But all that is besides the point.



THE BASICS
A character can exchange an "other" skill choice for +10% to an OCC skill, another "other" skill, or +15% to a secondary skill.

A character can exchange a secondary skill choice for a +5% bonus to any OCC skill, "other" skill, or secondary skill.

No skill may recieve a bonus in this manner more than once. All choices must be done at character creation. A maximum of 3 "other" skills and 3 secondary skills may be exchanged in this way. For skills such as cooking (which can be taken twice for a "mastery" suite), this additional bonus may be applied under the above restrictions.

This basic skills choice is something that will be available for all the skills prototypes



Here is a proto-type skills change, 1A

Instead of receiving a +X% bonus on all of your various skills, the character will instead get a number of "skill points" to be distributed amoungst their skills. No single skill may receive more than 15 points per level in this manner. Each point is the equivalent of 1%. A character gains their I.Q. score times 5 in skill points at each new level, plus the new level times 3.
For example, at 2nd level a character with a 10 IQ would receive 50 skill points from IQ and 6 skill points from level, for a total of 56 skill points.

For multiclass characters, this formula applies based on the current class level, not the overall character level.
An example of this would be a 4th level Headhunter gaining his first level in the Commando OCC. He would gain his standard IQ bonus skill points, plus 3 for his first level in Commando. Note that this is the only time a character would gain their first level in skill points.

Obviously this creates a problem with extremely smart characters. A character with a 30 IQ is getting 150 skillpoints per level! Or does it? Currently a character in Rifts with 20 skills (a low-average for the typical Merc) is already getting 100 skill points (equivalent) in +X% for his skills (assuming a +5% bonus, which is the norm. for most skills). A smart character is thus getting more. This is a pretty good trade-off, as despite the lack of +X% per level to your skills, the ones you use and the ones you wish to be good at will gain points much quicker than normal - this reflects the training and such each skill receives from continuous use.
It never made much sense to me for a character that was always cooking and never ever using explosives to gain +5% to explosives each level, while his cooking ability was getting only +5% as well.

Of course, this does produce another problem; characters not putting skill points into the skills they're using, and instead "padding" another skill they think will become useful in the future. There is not a whole lot you can do about this; this padding of certain skills though comes into play when they find that they're always using Radio: Scrambler, but never putting points into it, yet they prowled once during an adventure and that's getting 15 points this level. What they don't realize is that they're only screwing themselves over but not putting points towards the skills they use frequently. That said, I'd pad my parachute skill just because it's one of those ones you don't ever want to fail with!

Skills over 98%; these require 2 skill points for every +1% increase. This increase is to combat penalties acrued via situations. A character can never have more than a 98% chance to suceed (as far as these rules are concerned). There are situations that will become "automatic", such as using cooking to make simple recipes. This never constitutes a roll of the dice when you hit 98%. This goes for every skill that could conceiveably be used for such simple tasks (like using pilot automobile to contend with rush-hour traffic). Characters that pad their skills too much become one-dimentional, so player remember to spread the wealth a little bit!

Next part is that a Character with an IQ bonus to skills - this bonus is no longer gained as a bonus to all skills, but instead as a straight-up +X% to be distributed amoungst your starting skills. No more than half of this percentage may go to any one skill.

Updated with additional shooting rules.

Rogue_Scientist wrote:Mmm. I usually do "cover" like a natural AR, except that (unless its an AoE), something is taking damage! Either the target, or the thing the target is hiding behind.

This most often comes into play for tower-type shields. SWAT shields, too. Pretty big AR, you can shoot around 'em, etc. Handy stuff, and pretty cheap, too, for the MDC avoided.

I did cover as-is because I don't like how AR works. I don't like the idea that something like armour has the possibility that only a lucky roll rather than skill can by-pass.

ak-73 wrote:I don't think expanding the combat rules significantly is going to fit my GMing style. As mentioned, I am a fairly fast-paced GM and as such, these rules might rather be a hindrance than helping out.

I have a near-photographic memory when it comes to stuff like this, so basically I make the players look up the rules when they want to know the penalties for stuff. Let them assess the situation themselves and all that.

Plus, you know - I wrote these rules, so that helps me remember them too.

ak-73 wrote:I am not the type to look the difficulty of a shot in a table. I am more inclined to improvise on the fly. As such what helps my gaming style is modifiers that I can easily remember and where I don't have to look up (for example) the range of a rifle in order to figure out what the modifier is at 20m.

But that's just my gaming style. Others will certainly find it more geared to their style.

See, I usually have a rough time improvising, so I felt I needed a guide like this one. My group seemed to like it, especially when I include quick charts and stuff for the ones that don't like to read the rulebook and would rather just be told what the modifiers are on a given roll. So it's worked out pretty good.

ak-73 wrote:Some of the other stuff I will have to read more closely and consider. I usually always some fresh and good ideas in such rules compilations.

Alex

If you try the suprised initiative roll, tell me how it works out. I only thought up the rule and haven't had a chance to use it yet. I'm kinda wondering on player reactions to it.

Sinse it's tailored to my initiative system as well, I'll do a modified version here so that you can use it with regular games too.

Instead of rolling 1d6 and adding your initiative mod. versus 15 seconds, roll 1d20 and add your initiative mod. versus 15+ your opponent's initiative modifier. For every point of difference you are under, you lose one attack that suprise round, until you are simply out of attacks. If you roll equal to or above the number, then you get to act with your full number of attacks that round, though you are considered to have an initiative of 0.

Example: your opponent gets the jump on you, and he's a thug with some light cybernetics, most notably though is a cyber-ear (+3 initiative). You must roll against 18 for actions during the suprise round. You rolled an 11 on 1d20 and add your initiative bonus of +4 (various) for a total of 15. You lose 3 attacks that melee (starting with first) since there is a difference of 3 between you and your opponent.

This alternate system allows characters without an initiative bonus to sometimes retain their full attacks, while offering that characters with high initiative bonuses are rarely completely suprised by average opponents. For example, a Juicer will rarely be down by more than 1 or 2 attacks against a CS grunt, if he's down any at all!

This is a question I usually ask people who are designing a whole new system, but

What's the fun thing about your game rules?

Or is the fun thing about play somewhere else and this extensive list of rules just cover the side issue of combat?

Noon wrote:This is a question I usually ask people who are designing a whole new system, but

What's the fun thing about your game rules?

Or is the fun thing about play somewhere else and this extensive list of rules just cover the side issue of combat?

These cover combat, and (when I post them) offer ideas and options for skills and skilled characters.

The fun comes into play with not arguing over rules; something almost every group does at some point in time. With a clearly defined and easy to read set of combat rules, people will know what their options are in a given situation, how to read combat so as to get an idea of what will happen in a situation, and generally leave the mechanical thinking to the way-side (as it has been done for them ahead of time).

This in-turn allows them to more easily be immersed in the action, and creates a more believeable versimilitude. Versimilitude within a role-playing game is the ultimate goal (or should be), therefore anything that creates more versimilitude also creates a better over-all experience. And a better experience is equal to 'more fun'.

Currently the initiative change has been a real boon to the game; no one has missed actions anymore and combat doesn't last for hours. The shooting rules haven't all come up yet, but offer a tangible reason to making things harder to hit, and to having opponents miss the players without that feeling that a roll was fudged on their behalf (favoratism - something I loathe).

Dog_O_War wrote:The fun comes into play with not arguing over rules; something almost every group does at some point in time. With a clearly defined and easy to read set of combat rules, people will know what their options are in a given situation, how to read combat so as to get an idea of what will happen in a situation, and generally leave the mechanical thinking to the way-side (as it has been done for them ahead of time).

This in-turn allows them to more easily be immersed in the action, and creates a more believeable versimilitude. Versimilitude within a role-playing game is the ultimate goal (or should be), therefore anything that creates more versimilitude also creates a better over-all experience. And a better experience is equal to 'more fun'.

Currently the initiative change has been a real boon to the game; no one has missed actions anymore and combat doesn't last for hours. The shooting rules haven't all come up yet, but offer a tangible reason to making things harder to hit, and to having opponents miss the players without that feeling that a roll was fudged on their behalf (favoratism - something I loathe).

I do not think this is as big a problem as you would have us believe...in 30+ years in the hobby I have only experienced one "disagreement" on the rules of a game. (oddly enough it was in a 3.5 game).
I am still having trouble following your Initiative Rules (this is not the first time I have seen them)...
I am not saying they are bad...there just seems to be something in them that bothers me and for some odd reason I cannot put my finger on what it is...I understand the basic premise of them, but I still fail to see how it allows for chars with lower numbers of attacks getting the initiative...

Damian Magecraft wrote:I am still having trouble following your Initiative Rules (this is not the first time I have seen them)...
I am not saying they are bad...there just seems to be something in them that bothers me and for some odd reason I cannot put my finger on what it is...I understand the basic premise of them, but I still fail to see how it allows for chars with lower numbers of attacks getting the initiative...

It works like a race; everyone is at the starting line (second 15), and the GM says "go!"
from there, people roll initiative - highest initiative gets to act first at the start. Then you move down the track, counting down the seconds; 14, 13, 12, etc... At each interval a character has an action during - like a character with 4 attacks would be going at 15, 11, 7, and 3 - meaning that this character acts next on second 11. If another character acted on second 11 as well, you would then compare their initative scores to see who actually goes first. If it's a tie, then that would be a simultaineous strike (if they were attacking eachother).

Hope that clears it up.

Dog_O_War wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:I am still having trouble following your Initiative Rules (this is not the first time I have seen them)...
I am not saying they are bad...there just seems to be something in them that bothers me and for some odd reason I cannot put my finger on what it is...I understand the basic premise of them, but I still fail to see how it allows for chars with lower numbers of attacks getting the initiative...

It works like a race; everyone is at the starting line (second 15), and the GM says "go!"
from there, people roll initiative - highest initiative gets to act first at the start. Then you move down the track, counting down the seconds; 14, 13, 12, etc... At each interval a character has an action during - like a character with 4 attacks would be going at 15, 11, 7, and 3 - meaning that this character acts next on second 11. If another character acted on second 11 as well, you would then compare their initative scores to see who actually goes first. If it's a tie, then that would be a simultaineous strike (if they were attacking eachother).

Hope that clears it up.

your mention of simo-attack brings up another question....
specifically how does that particular defense option impact on it?

Damian Magecraft wrote:your mention of simo-attack brings up another question....
specifically how does that particular defense option impact on it?

People can no-longer call out "Simultaineous attack!" and get that initiative boost to act at the same time as their attacker. They have to already have the exact-same initiative as their opponent, and both have to be acting on that same second. It's now a circumstance that people must deal with, not an "I win" button.

Ouch, I just realised its actually a double initiative system now - roll for it, AND do a countdown for each second of the melee.

Dog_O_War wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:your mention of simo-attack brings up another question....
specifically how does that particular defense option impact on it?

People can no-longer call out "Simultaineous attack!" and get that initiative boost to act at the same time as their attacker. They have to already have the exact-same initiative as their opponent, and both have to be acting on that same second. It's now a circumstance that people must deal with, not an "I win" button.

never really saw that as an I win button...
but then its not heavily used in my games.
when it is used its as a last ditch effort.

Damian Magecraft wrote:never really saw that as an I win button...
but then its not heavily used in my games.
when it is used its as a last ditch effort.

True, but if for anyone who used it over and over, you'd probably have thrown them out. So it's kind of selective memory. Either they don't count as having done it because they are ex's, or fearing ejection, they elected not to use it over and over.

Post two has been updated with a skills change and a prototype rules change.

Okay, I ended up not liking the skills proto-type system. It was an annoyance at best.

But I did change the skills abit. Instead of IQ adding its bonus (if any) to all skills, instead you get a bonus (similar to the IQ skill bonus) for certain skills if you have an equally high stat they would be governed with.

For example, if you have a PS of 30, then you may add the typical "+16%" that IQ would normally provide to climbing. Do not double-up on these bonuses; climbing, for example no longer recieves a bonus from a high IQ.

I have a complete list of skills, though it will likely see some revisions as to what skill is governed by what stat. Here it is. Note that while some skills are governed under more than one section, I've only included the first instance of appearance to avoid duplication.

IQ - you'll note that the majority of skills are still governed by this stat.

Communications

Domestic

Electronics

Espionage

Mechanical

Medical

Military

Pilot

Pilot Related

Rogue

Science

Technical

Wilderness

ME

Cowboy

Military

MA

Communications

Cowboy

Domestic

Espionage

Medical

Rogue

Technical

PS

Physical

Pilot

PP

Cowboy

Domestic

Espionage

Horsmanship

Military

Physical

Pilot

Rogue

Technical

PE

Physical

Pilot

Technical

Wilderness


These are the stats and the skills governed under them. This isn't a permanent list; if I/my group decides a skill is better governed somewhere else, then a change will likely be made.

Additionally, I've also changed the stats themselves. It has always bothered me that while a stat was considered "above-average" like 12-15, you didn't actually get anything for it. It was a gold-star, or a pat on the head for trying. Not worth anything. Like having a strength of 15; you are nearly twice as strong as a person with a strength of 8, yet you couldn't hit any harder.

As such, here's the changes I've made to them. Instead of bonuses beginning at 16, they now start at 13. The usual method of rolling an additional 1d6 still applies for getting a 16 though. Just the bonuses start earlier.

IQ - Because alot of the skills governed under this stat have moved to other stats (just under half), this now provides an additional bonus in the form of extra skills. Not every point of IQ offers an additional skill, but rather every 4 points gleans an additional skill.
These extra skills are in the form of secondary skills; you get one extra secondary skill starting at 13 IQ, with an additional one at 17, 21, 25, and 29 (or more if you are a race that can achieve a 33 or higher).

ME - Starting at 13 and progressing every odd number, gain a +1 to save versus insanity (yes, this only amounts to +9 at a stat of 29, instead of the usual +13. There's a trade-off for earlier bonuses...)
Starting at 14 and progressing every even number, gain a +1 to save versus psionic attack (yes, this provides a +9 at a stat of 30; one point above the usual +8).

MA - The typical trust/intimidate still exists, though since it's starting earlier, it also starts smaller.
Beginning at 13 you get a 10% chance to trust/intimidate. For every point above 3 (ie; 14, 15, etc...) you get an additional 5% to the skill. This reaches 95% at a 30 MA (yes, this is less than the usual 98% cap).

PS - I haven't yet decided a decent method of giving a damage-bonus with this stat.

PP - starting at 13 gain a +1 to dodge and parry, and gain an additional +1 every three points after (16, 19, etc...).
Starting at 14 gain a +1 to melee attack rolls, and gain an additional +1 every three points after (17, 20, etc...)
Starting at 15 gain a +1 to roll with punch/fall/impact, and gain an additional +1 every three points after (18, 21, etc...)
These changes mean one less point to parry, dodge, and melee strike in the higher categories, but includes bonuses for roll with punch/fall/impact.
One thing to note is that these bonuses continue beyond 30, but that you no longer get an initiative bonus from this stat (with the exception of how the Sharpshooting skill grants one via this stat).

PE - Starting at 13 gain a +1 to save versus magical attack, and gain an additional +1 every odd point after (15, 17, etc...)
Starting at 14 gain a +1 to save versus poison, and gain an additional +1 every even point after (16, 18, etc...).
Finally, instead of getting a bonus to save versus coma/death, your base percentage is equal to your PE stat. So if you have a PE score of 5, then you have a 5% chance to save versus coma/death.

PB - Similar to how MA was done, the typical charm/impress still exists.
Beginning at 13 you get a 10% chance to charm/impress. For every point above 3 (ie; 14, 15, etc...) you get an additional 5% to the skill. This reaches 95% at a 30 PB.

Spd - This stat still measures how fast a character can move, but there is an additional bonus here; you get a +1 to initiative for every 20 full points of speed stat you have. This means that your average Juicer has an additional +3 to initiative above and beyond the typical OCC bonus!


For now this is all the information I have to offer. If anyone has any questions and such, I will answer them as best I can.

Dog_O_War wrote:THE BASICS
Initiative.

• Rolling initiative is usually the first thing you do in combat. It determines how fast you're reacting - this matters for a number of reasons, like shooting first. Initiative is a bonus stat derived from X different sources. Most people do not have an initiative bonus.
  
• Initiative is a straight-up comparison with another persons' score; roll 1d20 and add any relevant bonuses or penalties and give the total to your GM. This is your initiative for the round. There are very few select abilities that can modify your initiative once it has been rolled. If you share an initiative score with someone else, then you will act at the exact same time as them - performing a simultaineous action/attack.
  
• This is important to note because the old rule of how a simo-attack worked is no longer in effect. You cannot call a simultaineous attack anymore; it only happens (automatically) when you are on the same initiative as someone else.
  
• There are ways to modify your initiative; Holding your action can cause you to move down in the initiative ranks.* The quickdraw skill can immediately affect your score, as can being knocked down/tackled or otherwise affected by a combat manuever that reduces your initiative to 1.

*more on this in a bit.

Attacks Per Melee.
[list][*]This is now very important as this goes hand-in-hand with initiative. Everyone has a set number of attacks per round that rarely changes. This means that we can divide your attacks/actions up with a combat round evenly sinse both have a known total that doesn't change (often). A melee round is 15 seconds; personally I like counting down from 15. Why does this matter? Well now your attacks fall on certain seconds, though all attacks start at 15 (or 1 if you prefer to count up).

[*]This means that someone with 4 actions per melee will begin the melee round with an action on 15, then another on 11, the next on 7, and the last action on 3. Sinse you can rely on this like the CS always being there, write it down on your character sheet.
Now when someone else is fighting you, you can easily see when and were they are acting. For instance, that person above is fight a Boxer who is going on seconds 15, 12, 9, 6, and 3. At the start of the round you and your opponent roll initiative, and both get 20 (total). This means that the first action that round will be simultaineous for you. Then the Boxer will get an attack on you at second 12, then you get one on him at second 11, and so on until you both act simultaineously again on second 3.

[*]If you had an initiative score of 21, then the attacks would not be simultaineous. If you used your quickdraw skill on your action during second 3 of the round, you could also bump your initiative for that action as well.

You've obviously given combat turn allocation rules a lot of thought. I'm curious what you think of the system I came up with for a system of my own (though it could be applied to Pally if you changed the length of a melee or used 30 siders or something):
Rounds are 20 seconds. For each second, everyone rolls 1D20. If the unmodified roll is equal to or less than APR (Actions Per Round), you can go.
Initiative is equal to this roll, minus your init score. Lowest goes first.
So for example: Al has 5 APR and 8 Init. Bob has 8 APR and 9 Init. Chuck has 3 APR and 7 Init.
They each roll 1D20. Al gets a 6, Bob gets a 4, and Chuck gets a 1.
Al can't move, since the raw roll > his APR. Bob's initiative = 4-9 = -5. Chuck's initiative = 1 - 7 = -6. So Bob and Chuck get to move, but Chuck has the initiative.

The system's also scalable, so you can use multiple seconds at a time (so if everyone has low APR values, you can up the # of seconds each go-round to make things faster). Basically, you multiply the APR by how many seconds you want to use.
So the GM decides to use 3 second slices instead of the default 1 second one, Al rolls a 14, Bob rolls a 4, and Chuck rolls a 12.
Since Al has 5 APR, he needs a 15 to go this round. His 14 makes is, and his initiative = 14 - 8 = 6.
Bob's 8 APR means he has 24 effective APR. 20 APR means you automatically get a turn, and then the roll determines if you get another. He rolled a 4, so he goes twice. Initiative = 4 - 9 = -5. Then he takes his second turn after everyone's had one turn.
Chuck's 3 APR means he has 9 effective APR, but he rolled a 10.
So the order is Bob, Al, Bob

What do you think?

Overlord Rikonius wrote:You've obviously given combat turn allocation rules a lot of thought. I'm curious what you think of the system I came up with for a system of my own (though it could be applied to Pally if you changed the length of a melee or used 30 siders or something):
Rounds are 20 seconds. For each second, everyone rolls 1D20. If the unmodified roll is equal to or less than APR (Actions Per Round), you can go.
Initiative is equal to this roll, minus your init score. Lowest goes first.
So for example: Al has 5 APR and 8 Init. Bob has 8 APR and 9 Init. Chuck has 3 APR and 7 Init.
They each roll 1D20. Al gets a 6, Bob gets a 4, and Chuck gets a 1.
Al can't move, since the raw roll > his APR. Bob's initiative = 4-9 = -5. Chuck's initiative = 1 - 7 = -6. So Bob and Chuck get to move, but Chuck has the initiative.

The system's also scalable, so you can use multiple seconds at a time (so if everyone has low APR values, you can up the # of seconds each go-round to make things faster). Basically, you multiply the APR by how many seconds you want to use.
So the GM decides to use 3 second slices instead of the default 1 second one, Al rolls a 14, Bob rolls a 4, and Chuck rolls a 12.
Since Al has 5 APR, he needs a 15 to go this round. His 14 makes is, and his initiative = 14 - 8 = 6.
Bob's 8 APR means he has 24 effective APR. 20 APR means you automatically get a turn, and then the roll determines if you get another. He rolled a 4, so he goes twice. Initiative = 4 - 9 = -5. Then he takes his second turn after everyone's had one turn.
Chuck's 3 APR means he has 9 effective APR, but he rolled a 10.
So the order is Bob, Al, Bob

What do you think?

I'm not sure I completely understand it; I'll repeat it back to you and you can tell me if I've got it. Once I've got it, I'll be able to form a response.

First is the APR (actions per round) - this is how many times in a round you can act, correct? That is, you get one action per second, counting up - until you surpass your APR. ie; you roll a 3 and have an initiative of 7 (or rather -7), with an APR of 4 - this would give you one action at -4, another at 0, and a third at 4 (or perhaps you don't get one if you roll equal to? ).

Is this correct?

Dog_O_War wrote:

Overlord Rikonius wrote:You've obviously given combat turn allocation rules a lot of thought. I'm curious what you think of the system I came up with for a system of my own (though it could be applied to Pally if you changed the length of a melee or used 30 siders or something):
Rounds are 20 seconds. For each second, everyone rolls 1D20. If the unmodified roll is equal to or less than APR (Actions Per Round), you can go.
Initiative is equal to this roll, minus your init score. Lowest goes first.
So for example: Al has 5 APR and 8 Init. Bob has 8 APR and 9 Init. Chuck has 3 APR and 7 Init.
They each roll 1D20. Al gets a 6, Bob gets a 4, and Chuck gets a 1.
Al can't move, since the raw roll > his APR. Bob's initiative = 4-9 = -5. Chuck's initiative = 1 - 7 = -6. So Bob and Chuck get to move, but Chuck has the initiative.

The system's also scalable, so you can use multiple seconds at a time (so if everyone has low APR values, you can up the # of seconds each go-round to make things faster). Basically, you multiply the APR by how many seconds you want to use.
So the GM decides to use 3 second slices instead of the default 1 second one, Al rolls a 14, Bob rolls a 4, and Chuck rolls a 12.
Since Al has 5 APR, he needs a 15 to go this round. His 14 makes is, and his initiative = 14 - 8 = 6.
Bob's 8 APR means he has 24 effective APR. 20 APR means you automatically get a turn, and then the roll determines if you get another. He rolled a 4, so he goes twice. Initiative = 4 - 9 = -5. Then he takes his second turn after everyone's had one turn.
Chuck's 3 APR means he has 9 effective APR, but he rolled a 10.
So the order is Bob, Al, Bob

What do you think?

I'm not sure I completely understand it; I'll repeat it back to you and you can tell me if I've got it. Once I've got it, I'll be able to form a response.

First is the APR (actions per round) - this is how many times in a round you can act, correct? That is, you get one action per second, counting up - until you surpass your APR. ie; you roll a 3 and have an initiative of 7 (or rather -7), with an APR of 4 - this would give you one action at -4, another at 0, and a third at 4 (or perhaps you don't get one if you roll equal to? ).

Is this correct?

Not quite. You're right that APR is how often a character can expect to move in a round (20 seconds), but this is more of an everage random statistical thing.
Basically, the philosophy is, if you've got 4 APR, then you would expect to average 4 moves per round, and in any given second, there's a 4 in 20 chance of you getting to go. So instead of having a chart that says people with this many attacks go on these seconds, or everyone taking turns, everyone does this movement check every second to see if they can act.
So let's say you have 4 APR, then for each second, you roll a D20.
If that is equal to or less than your APR (4) then you can go, once, that second.

Your initiative is that D20 roll - your Init. score. And that only means who can go first, it doesn't affect how many times a character can move per second.
Basically, each second, everyone rolls a D20 to see if they can move, and if so, what their initiative is. And each second is independant of the others, but statistically will average out to your APM per round, though a character with 4 APM may find himself only moving once in one 20 second sequence, and find himself moving 10 times in another.

If someone has 20 APR, then he can automatically move once a second, no matter what (because he moves on a roll of 1-20), but he still rolls for initiative.
If anyone has more than 20 APR, then they handle that first 20 as above, and then use that roll for the next.
So let's say I have two super speedsters with 25 APR and one with 20 APR, and all have Init scores of 10. They each roll their movement die.
We use their first 20
Dan (25 APR) rolls a 6, Eddie (25 APR) rolls a 5. Frank (20 APR) rolls a 7. Initiative order is Eddie, Dan, and Frank.
Everyone has at least 20 APR, so they all automatically get to go, and they go in that order.
Now Frank is done, since he has exactly 20 APR. And all 20 of those APR are accounted for in his once per second attack. But Dan and Eddie each have APR scores of 25. The first 20 of each is accounted for. But they still have 5 APR each. Using those rolls, Dan can't move, since his roll of 6 is over his remaining APR. Eddie rolled a 5, with is equal to his remaining APR, so he can go.

And if you use the multi-second option, it plays out the same way, but you just use your APR * the number of seconds.

Overlord Rikonius wrote:

Dog_O_War wrote:

Overlord Rikonius wrote:You've obviously given combat turn allocation rules a lot of thought. I'm curious what you think of the system I came up with for a system of my own (though it could be applied to Pally if you changed the length of a melee or used 30 siders or something):
Rounds are 20 seconds. For each second, everyone rolls 1D20. If the unmodified roll is equal to or less than APR (Actions Per Round), you can go.
Initiative is equal to this roll, minus your init score. Lowest goes first.
So for example: Al has 5 APR and 8 Init. Bob has 8 APR and 9 Init. Chuck has 3 APR and 7 Init.
They each roll 1D20. Al gets a 6, Bob gets a 4, and Chuck gets a 1.
Al can't move, since the raw roll > his APR. Bob's initiative = 4-9 = -5. Chuck's initiative = 1 - 7 = -6. So Bob and Chuck get to move, but Chuck has the initiative.

The system's also scalable, so you can use multiple seconds at a time (so if everyone has low APR values, you can up the # of seconds each go-round to make things faster). Basically, you multiply the APR by how many seconds you want to use.
So the GM decides to use 3 second slices instead of the default 1 second one, Al rolls a 14, Bob rolls a 4, and Chuck rolls a 12.
Since Al has 5 APR, he needs a 15 to go this round. His 14 makes is, and his initiative = 14 - 8 = 6.
Bob's 8 APR means he has 24 effective APR. 20 APR means you automatically get a turn, and then the roll determines if you get another. He rolled a 4, so he goes twice. Initiative = 4 - 9 = -5. Then he takes his second turn after everyone's had one turn.
Chuck's 3 APR means he has 9 effective APR, but he rolled a 10.
So the order is Bob, Al, Bob

What do you think?

I'm not sure I completely understand it; I'll repeat it back to you and you can tell me if I've got it. Once I've got it, I'll be able to form a response.

First is the APR (actions per round) - this is how many times in a round you can act, correct? That is, you get one action per second, counting up - until you surpass your APR. ie; you roll a 3 and have an initiative of 7 (or rather -7), with an APR of 4 - this would give you one action at -4, another at 0, and a third at 4 (or perhaps you don't get one if you roll equal to? ).

Is this correct?

Not quite. You're right that APR is how often a character can expect to move in a round (20 seconds), but this is more of an everage random statistical thing.
Basically, the philosophy is, if you've got 4 APR, then you would expect to average 4 moves per round, and in any given second, there's a 4 in 20 chance of you getting to go. So instead of having a chart that says people with this many attacks go on these seconds, or everyone taking turns, everyone does this movement check every second to see if they can act.
So let's say you have 4 APR, then for each second, you roll a D20.
If that is equal to or less than your APR (4) then you can go, once, that second.

Your initiative is that D20 roll - your Init. score. And that only means who can go first, it doesn't affect how many times a character can move per second.
Basically, each second, everyone rolls a D20 to see if they can move, and if so, what their initiative is. And each second is independant of the others, but statistically will average out to your APM per round, though a character with 4 APM may find himself only moving once in one 20 second sequence, and find himself moving 10 times in another.

If someone has 20 APR, then he can automatically move once a second, no matter what (because he moves on a roll of 1-20), but he still rolls for initiative.
If anyone has more than 20 APR, then they handle that first 20 as above, and then use that roll for the next.
So let's say I have two super speedsters with 25 APR and one with 20 APR, and all have Init scores of 10. They each roll their movement die.
We use their first 20
Dan (25 APR) rolls a 6, Eddie (25 APR) rolls a 5. Frank (20 APR) rolls a 7. Initiative order is Eddie, Dan, and Frank.
Everyone has at least 20 APR, so they all automatically get to go, and they go in that order.
Now Frank is done, since he has exactly 20 APR. And all 20 of those APR are accounted for in his once per second attack. But Dan and Eddie each have APR scores of 25. The first 20 of each is accounted for. But they still have 5 APR each. Using those rolls, Dan can't move, since his roll of 6 is over his remaining APR. Eddie rolled a 5, with is equal to his remaining APR, so he can go.

And if you use the multi-second option, it plays out the same way, but you just use your APR * the number of seconds.

Okay, I think I understand now.

*Critiques*

That's waaaaay too much dice-rolling imo. You are making one check per every second of a melee round, and you're comparing it against all the people rolling. That may seem easy for you to handle, but in the end (and for everyone else, myself included), that'll be too much book-keeping. Traditionally (with the palladium system), people have a hard enough time with the round-robin format, as in any given round you could be going first or fiftieth. With your system you've set up, you're now checking 20 times per round!

It is nice to know what's going on at any given second, so I can understand the need for such closely timed combat sequences. But wouldn't it be easier (on you and your players) if you simply had some "automated" methods of calculation?

Thinking apon how the combat round in Dungeons and Dragons 3rd edition worked, it was simplified in such a way as to minimize "random" dice-rolling, as this is an actual strain on real game-time. Such instances that leap to mind are how (in palladium) a supposedly "simple" skill check can come up a failure like 10 times in a row, despite the character in-question being a skillfull and practiced professional at it. Like having an 80% in the climbing skill and faced with a 12 foot brick wall; sometimes your dice just want to jack you, so you end up rolling 81+ more than 3 times in a row.

The off-note on that is that we are people and like to comment and talk about things such as chance and table-happenings (like the same dice rolling off the table atleast once every skill/attack roll ); this does detract from the overall playing time, maybe a few minutes here and there - but it does add up.

So what I suggest to you is to find a balance between these three items; realism, game-balance, and dice-rolls. If you had a ratio of actions available (like an action "cap" or something) that had a cut-off limit on the number of actions a character could perform per round, this saves time (and dice-rolls).

Maybe cut down on the math; change APR to a static number that counts down from 10. The players then roll a single initiative (1d20+initiative bonus) and subtract their APR to find out when and how often they're going that round. For instance, you have a 5 APR and you rolled a total of 22 on your initiative; you act at 22, then again at 17, then again at 12, then again at 7, then a final time at 2. These actions are also used as an easy comparison for who goes when. It does do away with the round-robin, but the round-robin was never a good idea in my opinion.

Another option might be simply to use smaller numbers; roll a d6 instead of a d20, and have the rounds only be 6 seconds. That way you get smaller, tighter numbers (which means less time figuring out the math). This may screw up the over-all calculation on however you got their initiatives and APR, but if it doesn't, it means less time figuring out the die-totals and more time acting on them.



I've found that the less calculation that has to be done on the players' part also tends to increase their enjoyment. This goes for every game I've ever played. The flip-side to this though is that games that require less calculation are often considered "too simple" to be exciting for other players (this includes myself). I've found that the more work you can have done as a permanent (though complex) calculation works to the advantage (and enjoyment) of both types of player. What this means is that you should use charts (or similar) and have them tailored to your players.

I hope this helps.


*Final note: The system you've provided has no inherent mechanical flaws that I could see. Actually, since it increases the control you and the players have over time it also removes some flaws other systems have due to a lack of control. Good job

Dog_O_War wrote:

Overlord Rikonius wrote:

Dog_O_War wrote:

Overlord Rikonius wrote:You've obviously given combat turn allocation rules a lot of thought. I'm curious what you think of the system I came up with for a system of my own (though it could be applied to Pally if you changed the length of a melee or used 30 siders or something):
Rounds are 20 seconds. For each second, everyone rolls 1D20. If the unmodified roll is equal to or less than APR (Actions Per Round), you can go.
Initiative is equal to this roll, minus your init score. Lowest goes first.
So for example: Al has 5 APR and 8 Init. Bob has 8 APR and 9 Init. Chuck has 3 APR and 7 Init.
They each roll 1D20. Al gets a 6, Bob gets a 4, and Chuck gets a 1.
Al can't move, since the raw roll > his APR. Bob's initiative = 4-9 = -5. Chuck's initiative = 1 - 7 = -6. So Bob and Chuck get to move, but Chuck has the initiative.

The system's also scalable, so you can use multiple seconds at a time (so if everyone has low APR values, you can up the # of seconds each go-round to make things faster). Basically, you multiply the APR by how many seconds you want to use.
So the GM decides to use 3 second slices instead of the default 1 second one, Al rolls a 14, Bob rolls a 4, and Chuck rolls a 12.
Since Al has 5 APR, he needs a 15 to go this round. His 14 makes is, and his initiative = 14 - 8 = 6.
Bob's 8 APR means he has 24 effective APR. 20 APR means you automatically get a turn, and then the roll determines if you get another. He rolled a 4, so he goes twice. Initiative = 4 - 9 = -5. Then he takes his second turn after everyone's had one turn.
Chuck's 3 APR means he has 9 effective APR, but he rolled a 10.
So the order is Bob, Al, Bob

What do you think?

I'm not sure I completely understand it; I'll repeat it back to you and you can tell me if I've got it. Once I've got it, I'll be able to form a response.

First is the APR (actions per round) - this is how many times in a round you can act, correct? That is, you get one action per second, counting up - until you surpass your APR. ie; you roll a 3 and have an initiative of 7 (or rather -7), with an APR of 4 - this would give you one action at -4, another at 0, and a third at 4 (or perhaps you don't get one if you roll equal to? ).

Is this correct?

Not quite. You're right that APR is how often a character can expect to move in a round (20 seconds), but this is more of an everage random statistical thing.
Basically, the philosophy is, if you've got 4 APR, then you would expect to average 4 moves per round, and in any given second, there's a 4 in 20 chance of you getting to go. So instead of having a chart that says people with this many attacks go on these seconds, or everyone taking turns, everyone does this movement check every second to see if they can act.
So let's say you have 4 APR, then for each second, you roll a D20.
If that is equal to or less than your APR (4) then you can go, once, that second.

Your initiative is that D20 roll - your Init. score. And that only means who can go first, it doesn't affect how many times a character can move per second.
Basically, each second, everyone rolls a D20 to see if they can move, and if so, what their initiative is. And each second is independant of the others, but statistically will average out to your APM per round, though a character with 4 APM may find himself only moving once in one 20 second sequence, and find himself moving 10 times in another.

If someone has 20 APR, then he can automatically move once a second, no matter what (because he moves on a roll of 1-20), but he still rolls for initiative.
If anyone has more than 20 APR, then they handle that first 20 as above, and then use that roll for the next.
So let's say I have two super speedsters with 25 APR and one with 20 APR, and all have Init scores of 10. They each roll their movement die.
We use their first 20
Dan (25 APR) rolls a 6, Eddie (25 APR) rolls a 5. Frank (20 APR) rolls a 7. Initiative order is Eddie, Dan, and Frank.
Everyone has at least 20 APR, so they all automatically get to go, and they go in that order.
Now Frank is done, since he has exactly 20 APR. And all 20 of those APR are accounted for in his once per second attack. But Dan and Eddie each have APR scores of 25. The first 20 of each is accounted for. But they still have 5 APR each. Using those rolls, Dan can't move, since his roll of 6 is over his remaining APR. Eddie rolled a 5, with is equal to his remaining APR, so he can go.

And if you use the multi-second option, it plays out the same way, but you just use your APR * the number of seconds.

Okay, I think I understand now.

*Critiques*

That's waaaaay too much dice-rolling imo. You are making one check per every second of a melee round, and you're comparing it against all the people rolling. That may seem easy for you to handle, but in the end (and for everyone else, myself included), that'll be too much book-keeping. Traditionally (with the palladium system), people have a hard enough time with the round-robin format, as in any given round you could be going first or fiftieth. With your system you've set up, you're now checking 20 times per round!

It is nice to know what's going on at any given second, so I can understand the need for such closely timed combat sequences. But wouldn't it be easier (on you and your players) if you simply had some "automated" methods of calculation?

Thinking apon how the combat round in Dungeons and Dragons 3rd edition worked, it was simplified in such a way as to minimize "random" dice-rolling, as this is an actual strain on real game-time. Such instances that leap to mind are how (in palladium) a supposedly "simple" skill check can come up a failure like 10 times in a row, despite the character in-question being a skillfull and practiced professional at it. Like having an 80% in the climbing skill and faced with a 12 foot brick wall; sometimes your dice just want to jack you, so you end up rolling 81+ more than 3 times in a row.

The off-note on that is that we are people and like to comment and talk about things such as chance and table-happenings (like the same dice rolling off the table atleast once every skill/attack roll ); this does detract from the overall playing time, maybe a few minutes here and there - but it does add up.

So what I suggest to you is to find a balance between these three items; realism, game-balance, and dice-rolls. If you had a ratio of actions available (like an action "cap" or something) that had a cut-off limit on the number of actions a character could perform per round, this saves time (and dice-rolls).

Maybe cut down on the math; change APR to a static number that counts down from 10. The players then roll a single initiative (1d20+initiative bonus) and subtract their APR to find out when and how often they're going that round. For instance, you have a 5 APR and you rolled a total of 22 on your initiative; you act at 22, then again at 17, then again at 12, then again at 7, then a final time at 2. These actions are also used as an easy comparison for who goes when. It does do away with the round-robin, but the round-robin was never a good idea in my opinion.

Another option might be simply to use smaller numbers; roll a d6 instead of a d20, and have the rounds only be 6 seconds. That way you get smaller, tighter numbers (which means less time figuring out the math). This may screw up the over-all calculation on however you got their initiatives and APR, but if it doesn't, it means less time figuring out the die-totals and more time acting on them.



I've found that the less calculation that has to be done on the players' part also tends to increase their enjoyment. This goes for every game I've ever played. The flip-side to this though is that games that require less calculation are often considered "too simple" to be exciting for other players (this includes myself). I've found that the more work you can have done as a permanent (though complex) calculation works to the advantage (and enjoyment) of both types of player. What this means is that you should use charts (or similar) and have them tailored to your players.

I hope this helps.


*Final note: The system you've provided has no inherent mechanical flaws that I could see. Actually, since it increases the control you and the players have over time it also removes some flaws other systems have due to a lack of control. Good job

Thanks for the input. And yeah it occurred to me too that once per second can be excessive, which what what prompted me to make it scalable, so you can do however many seconds you want at once (just treat your APR as if it were APR * seconds, so a guy with 5 APR in a 5 second setup is using an effective APR of 25) so you can increase or decrease resolution in game as you deal with higher or lower APRs.

Dog o War, it would be much simplier to make your own system from scratch. If you are going to do this much revision, you lose the point of revising.

Lord Z wrote:Dog o War, it would be much simplier to make your own system from scratch. If you are going to do this much revision, you lose the point of revising.

I have. I have a word.file that I'm typing up from my numerous but unorganized sheets of notes on rules-changes and systems. The above is basically like a rough-draft, but not as extensive.