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This is why I prefer my rules for defense... There is no parry, dodge, or roll, just defense. An automatic defense is minus 3, a partial defense (half damage) is +3.

Lol, someone else trying to inject realism into a game not meant for it at all.

i rule that the smaller combatant will suffer from full damage and knock-back if they try to parry/fail to dodge. we use minis so i have some rules for dealing with the knock-back and any secondary impacts that may occur (such as trees, walls or other combatants). i also have the giant roll a second d20 with every hit roll, which is a disarm roll. if the smaller guy fails to dodge, or tries to parry, he might lose whatever he is holding at the time.

a character with supernatural strength can try to parry as normal, but his weapon might get broken. i have only had to deal with this situation twice and both times i handled it differently (still looking for the right way). the first time i decided that the weapons max dmg was also its sdc and tried to keep track of that (too much extra work), the second time i just decided it will break if the giant gets an unmodified 19+ on his freebie disarm roll (it didnt, so after the fight i told the smaller guy that his weapon was so close to being broken that it likely wouldnt survive another impact).

once against a slightly less giant opponent, i had a player with a tower shield and i dislocated his shoulder after he parried a few really hard hits.

Chud wrote:When I have my players fighting extremely large opponents I sometimes do not give them the option to parry, for example if you are fighting a 30 foot tall monster and he swipes at you with his claws/tail putting your sword up to deflect the blow really won't do you much good. When fighting something like a troll however I don't give my players any negatives because if you angle your sword correctly you should be able to deflect a trolls blow without hurting yourself or losing your weapon. One website (http://www.monkey-bars.net/apfrpg_main.htm) has some ideas on how to deal with size differences...

"Anyone attempting to parry an opponent that is 10 feet taller than herself will have a –4 to parry, but will receive a +2 to dodge. For every additional 5 feet larger, the opponent has an additional –2 to parry and +1 to dodge added. Area effect attacks such as some spell magic and breath weapons are not affected by the above (they cannot be parried and so do not fall under this rule)."


An example of this would be:

A 4 foot dwarf is going toe-to-toe with a 20 foot troll. The dwarf would receive a –5 to any parry he attempts but would receive a +3 on any dodge he attempts. This tries to reflect the size differences between races and the inherent difficulty to try to counter their attacks as opposed to evading them.

i too have run events like this in similar fashion.

Starmage21 wrote:Lol, someone else trying to inject realism into a game not meant for it at all.

actually you need a bit of realism into all games you play- it doesnt matter what game it is -physics is part of everything. Seriously, would you allow a dwarven player to parry a claw swipe of a dragon?? Only chance he has there is to dodge- that or get sliced in half.

Entiago wrote:

Starmage21 wrote:Lol, someone else trying to inject realism into a game not meant for it at all.

actually you need a bit of realism into all games you play- it doesnt matter what game it is -physics is part of everything. Seriously, would you allow a dwarven player to parry a claw swipe of a dragon?? Only chance he has there is to dodge- that or get sliced in half.

Actually in that situation, since the dwarf rolled a successful parry, that he managed to deflect a finger just enough to cause a grazing or otherwise insubstantial hit or miss. Just because the chances of it happening seem improbable, does not mean that our intentionally above-average PCs can't make it happen to save their lives.

Seriously, the only amount of realism I need in a game is about enough to know that my character isnt going to fly off the planet he's standing on. You're playing a game build around the idea of escapism not simulationism.

Well, I might have just the thing for you. Check this out:

http://www.geocities.com/veknironth/Giants.htm

-Vek
"It's like someone was asking for that article."

There's a bit of fluff in the Mt Nimro book of a human making the mistake of trying to parry an attack from a giant, but I can't find any rules governing such actions.

Starmage21 wrote:Actually in that situation, since the dwarf rolled a successful parry, that he managed to deflect a finger just enough to cause a grazing or otherwise insubstantial hit or miss. Just because the chances of it happening seem improbable, does not mean that our intentionally above-average PCs can't make it happen to save their lives.

Like a dragon would waste an attack with 1 finger. He would use whole claw for swipe.

Entiago wrote:

Starmage21 wrote:Actually in that situation, since the dwarf rolled a successful parry, that he managed to deflect a finger just enough to cause a grazing or otherwise insubstantial hit or miss. Just because the chances of it happening seem improbable, does not mean that our intentionally above-average PCs can't make it happen to save their lives.

Like a dragon would waste an attack with 1 finger. He would use whole claw for swipe.

Course not, but his claws are so big, 1 finger may be all you really need to "parry"


Look, I do agree with you that if real physics were all that was involved, it would take armies to take down dragons at the very least. Just that in an RPG there's more than physics involved, theres fantasy, and there are a great deal of fantasies dealing with heroes killing dragons and giants and all sorts of other creatures that exist on a scale that would normally make them highly improbable(million or more to one) kills.
The amount of realism suggested by that article or otherwise would make fantasy combats null and void altogether. No amount of adventurers could take on a dragon at all, and it would take many of them to bring down a mere giant.
As said before, there are too many tales involving the slaying of dragons or giants. I just would not be caught dead denying my players the kind of fantasy experience they've all been reading about since they learned to read.

Chud wrote:there are ways to allow your heroes to take on a dragon without allowing them to parry...in every fantasy book I've ever read none of the heroes have ever taken it down through one on one hand to hand combat. They don't parry its tail, or its claws, they use ingenuity or magic or trick it into doing something foolish. You can also lower its stats slightly so that its more reasonable to fight for a group of heroes. But I think that it's still important to stick to at least the basic rules or ideas behind physics in the game just like most fantasy novels do. Of course the heroes are super powerful and perform feats beyond normal people but rarely to the extent where you it would be considered completely impossible or insane. A dwarf parrying a dragons claw or tail, in my opinion, would fall under the impossible/insane category.

Most fantasy novels dont have an abstract system of HP and/or SDC+HP either.

Well, I'm glad you agree. Some of the other things I've thought about are how easily a Giant would be able to hit someone with a distance weapon. Essentially, the target would be much smaller and should require a higher roll to strike - sort of like a called shot.

But I agree that some things are just totally out of the realm of possibility. They shouldn't even be considered. But people prefer, on occasion, to just look at the stats as opposed to the situation.

-Vek
"Don't get me started on beanstalks."

The first rule I use when giants are involved is to make sure the players are thinking about how big they are. Point out how big the giant is in real life terms, and encourage your players to think about how they would attack. Like "I want to try to somersault to get out of the way of the first blow, and try to spike him with my spear from inside his reach," then work out the mechanics roll wise.

Having gotten hit in the face by a tree over the Christmas holidays, I'd also urge people to remember knock-down rules when you're dealing with giants.

Depending on size of said giant, and a purely physical attack over an area (body slam, or kick for example), parry is practically useless, as a hit would be needed to get the attacker to pull back (think stubbing your toe, or stepping on a rays spines). Dodge would also be of little use, unless you can completely clear the area of the attack in the time it takes for that attack to occur. Imagine trying to parry a thrown boulder too. That much mass moving at speed is not going to be stopped by a piddling sword or shield, unless the person doing the parrying is capable of moving such a mass in the first place, and then see what happens to said sword or shield, as it's an automatic attack on the defense item and damage should be rolled. And I'd say a boulder does at LEAST 2d4x10 damage, or more, depending on size (Remember the Star Trek episode Galileo 7? Giants attacked with very large spears and huge rocks, and the redshirts were armed with phasers; the results? Giants 2 - Redshirts 0). As for a giant sized belly flop, holding your swords and shields up won't save you, you must be dodging the moment he starts (perhaps holding an attack to see what the giant does first because you're a crafty fighter) to have a chance at avoiding it. And if you got caught napping, heaven help you. And remember giants usually have a huge advantage in reach/range. The weapons are bigger, the rocks get thrown further (and most giants are practiced at it, similar to archers, size is irrelevant, as a rock is an area of attack weapon, and those tiny people may as well be bowling pins), and they can see over the tops of foliage. If you had to treat a boulder attack as anything else, use siege weapons rules. It's about the same as a catapult I would think.

(Nice article Vek, I agree, attempting to go toe-to-toe with any creature that has supernatural strength should fail if you also don't have it, and are armed with comparable weaponry/armor. Really tired of hearing about players taking on dragons and no one dying, it's like dragons are not dragons anymore, they are those cheap little pseudo-dragons from another game system.)

Well, the one problem with Giants is that they are totally a fantasy construct. For a creature to have that much mass and have proportionate strength and agility is...unusual. But as Mark has said, they aren't really human so they might have some sort of magical background or whatever to allow them to be that size without any loss. However, there are also negatives that they should be suffering. First, they would need ALOT of food. They would have to find something to hunt, or some sort of giant crops to grow. So, starvation would probably be a concern for them.

Also, they're easy to spot. There is little subterfuge that a giant can perform against smaller humanoids. They'll be spotted from a long way off and might even make the groud shake in certain situations. Also, they can't possibly blend in.

In terms of fighting them, I just can't imagine some hero standing toe to toe with a giant and surviving. It's just a physical mismatch. However, you can bring them down with numbers and distance attacks. Also, they are as susceptible to magic as anyone else. I just don't agree with the standard parry/attack method of combat with a giant. It just means the heros have to find a different method.

-Vek
"Stop their running game and get pressure on Manning."

Perhaps this is why a LOT of giants are cannibals, as they are the easiest food source to be found in any kind of abundance.