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I am just looking for canon regarding the blast from an annihilate spell. Would Impervious to Energy (or any otther similar effect) have any effect on the blast? My gut feeling is no but I could see it interpreted the other way.

I would say impervious to energy would work if one was not the direct target, but merely in the area of effect.

The antimatter blast is 100% kenetic energy...in fact that's all antimatter does. Converts all mass into raw physical energy.

If you really want to give the ahnillate caster a bad day, cast dispell magic barrier

Khord - Lizard Mage wrote:I am just looking for canon regarding the blast from an annihilate spell. Would Impervious to Energy (or any other similar effect) have any effect on the blast? My gut feeling is no but I could see it interpreted the other way.

impervious to energy does not protect from a concussion(blast) wave. So if the char with Imp to Energy was not the central target, then they would still get damaged normally.

Imp to E could be argued to make the target impervious to the annihilate spell do to the anti matter converts to energy.
if the char is imp to the Energy that the AM-M annihilation gives off then they would be counted as with in the blast sphere w/o being the target. this would be in keeping that the AM-M gives of raw energy.

however, if keeping with the KISS formula then I'd go with Nekira Sudacne.

What about a phase field? Would the damage be reduced by 90%? Also what about an O-P field? I know phase fields don't affect magical blasts but the spell seems to summon a ball of antimatter and contain it until it strikes a target.

Khord - Lizard Mage wrote:What about a phase field? Would the damage be reduced by 90%? Also what about an O-P field? I know phase fields don't affect magical blasts but the spell seems to summon a ball of antimatter and contain it until it strikes a target.

The spell summons/creates a speck/atom of AM, surrounded by a FF to keep the AM from reacting to any matter pre-maturely. The FF expands when it hits it's target, engulfing the matter around the target. The FF contains after effects of the AM-M collision and then the excess remnants of the effects are syphoned off to somewhere else.

Both the P-Field and the OP-Field might be negated by the FF due to the magical nature of the FF. Or the OP-Field might get 'pushed' out of the way by the FF. Or it might not have any effect on ether Phase field.

If the P-Field (DF) is not affected by the magical FF,the damage as pre field rating.

It is the OoP Fields that are a problem for GM desecration to solve.

Mark Hall wrote:I would say impervious to energy would work if one was not the direct target, but merely in the area of effect.

Seconded.

As far as p-fields and op-fields, I'd consider the nature of an antimatter/matter explosion to be transphasic. Of course, you probably shouldn't worry too much about it. You have to REALLY p.o. a mage to get him to blow 600 p.p.e on you. Generally they'd reserve such a blatant and wasteful use of energy for things like troop transports, ammo dumps, lippy drive-thru clerks, et c.

The Beast wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:I would say impervious to energy would work if one was not the direct target, but merely in the area of effect.

Seconded.

How do you figure that TB? (be sure to read my 2nd post to this topic before answering)

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

The Beast wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:I would say impervious to energy would work if one was not the direct target, but merely in the area of effect.

Seconded.

How do you figure that TB? (be sure to read my 2nd post to this topic before answering)

Pretty much what Findar said.

Old f.a.q. says... No.
Impervious to Energy is useless against Annhilate.
Sorry dude.

Findar wrote:The explosion
...snip.

That is right, the 2ndary effects of A are explosive in nature, not energy.

Imp. vs energy only protects against energy attacks. Not explotions, not bullets, not the frag nade/missle that landed at your feet, not that mountain of rock falling on your head, not that dragon's fist that is knocking you into next tuesday.

Sometimes I just reach out and some of you for being stupid and ignoring that physical attacks are not covered by imp. to energy.

Realize, drewkitty, that I read these boards without referencing my books. They sit upstairs, in my bookshelves, unused for most of these responses. Instead, I go off of what I know and remember. What I know is that when anti-matter and matter interact, you have a massive release of energy. This may be termed as an explosion, but matter + anti-matter = energy.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Sometimes I just reach out and some of you for being stupid and ignoring that physical attacks are not covered by imp. to energy.

Uh, dude... decaf.

Mark Hall wrote:Realize, drewkitty, that I read these boards without referencing my books. They sit upstairs, in my bookshelves, unused for most of these responses. Instead, I go off of what I know and remember. What I know is that when anti-matter and matter interact, you have a massive release of energy. This may be termed as an explosion, but matter + anti-matter = energy.

Which is why I said my stance the way I did. That the Imp. vs E would protects vs the initial damage (i.e.: the damage to the target), but not the secondary effects (i.e.: the collateral damage to the close bystanders).

And by the way...I'm doing this w/o my looking @ the books ether before this....*looks @ the spell description in RMoB*
and I stand by my initial stance, because it the correct one to take due to the physics involved.
1) the AM isn't magical, its just summoned.
2) only magic is the summoning of the AM and the FF containing the explotion
(Imp vs mage doesn't effect the spell effect ether).
3) the rest be physics
4)

Imp vs energ page 113 RBoM wrote:Physical attacks, guns, knives, clubs, explosives, and even punches, etc., do normal damage.

therefor Imp vs Energy does nothing vs the explosive damage caused by the A spell.

If Impervious to Energy was allowed, the GM would have to adjudicate exactly how much damage the initial target takes. First, the "baseball sized" chunk of anti-matter would consume a baseball sized chunk of the target, and then the resulting energy would hyper-excite gases which are now inside the target.
It's probably best to stick with the official ruling.

I've been reading the books closer, and I've noticed P.P.E. is a lot easier to gather and store now. If you got a scroll or the energy available, then feel free to fire it at whomever.
Personally, I'd restrain myself unless I was sure my target had a LOT of power, it HAD to be attacked, and I had some hefty backup.
I really can't see using Annihilate, unless I was at war, or fighting a god.
That's just me though.
Blast away bro'.

Burulovesyou wrote:In my group, a high magi used it to blast away an Uar. Not necessarily because it was cost effective (even though he has ppe talismans and energy spheres up the ****), but to make an example of the parties' power to a group of 5 cs soldiers they had captured. He figured that by vaporizing one of their war machines on a whim, they'd be a bit more compliant.

Way to reinforce a negative sterotype.

Dudes, I stopped using Annihilate, 'cause it was not as cost effective, or effecient, as Spit
Dragon Pearl.......

Grandil wrote:Dudes, I stopped using Annihilate, 'cause it was not as cost effective, or efficient, as Spit
Dragon Pearl.......

that it would be, IF the mage has access to chi magic spells. Most do not because your GM has to supply a teacher for NA mages to learn it.

see the "What is the Number of Magic O.C.C,s that get spells?" topic

Mark Hall wrote:I would say impervious to energy would work if one was not the direct target, but merely in the area of effect.

What he said.

The Spell's wording explicitly states that secondary effects APART from the antimatter/matter mix are negated by the magic in the Spell, so while I tentatively agree with those other people who say that you can't protect yourself from it if YOU are the object that it hits (you'd be protected from the Energy Pulse, but only AFTER the antimatter consumes your body), you'd be 100% protected from the energy blast wave if you were in the area of effect.

(If the Spell actually allowedyou the Secondary and Tertiary effects of a matter/anti-matter mix to occur, the effect would be confined to a few tiny feet; instead, you'd have the effective equivalent of a Coalition City-Killer Nuke in the palm of your hands.....and you would be right there in the epicenter -Buh Bye.)

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:Realize, drewkitty, that I read these boards without referencing my books. They sit upstairs, in my bookshelves, unused for most of these responses. Instead, I go off of what I know and remember. What I know is that when anti-matter and matter interact, you have a massive release of energy. This may be termed as an explosion, but matter + anti-matter = energy.

Which is why I said my stance the way I did. That the Imp. vs E would protects vs the initial damage (i.e.: the damage to the target), but not the secondary effects (i.e.: the collateral damage to the close bystanders).

And by the way...I'm doing this w/o my looking @ the books ether before this....*looks @ the spell description in RMoB*
and I stand by my initial stance, because it the correct one to take due to the physics involved.
1) the AM isn't magical, its just summoned.
2) only magic is the summoning of the AM and the FF containing the explotion
(Imp vs mage doesn't effect the spell effect ether).
3) the rest be physics
4)

Imp vs energ page 113 RBoM wrote:Physical attacks, guns, knives, clubs, explosives, and even punches, etc., do normal damage.

therefor Imp vs Energy does nothing vs the explosive damage caused by the A spell.

Drewkitty is somewhat in error of the Spell's effects.

According to the wording in the Spell, NO OTHER EFFECTS of the Annihilate Spell are allowed by the magic except the result of the anti-matter/matter mix, which is a 100% pure energy pulse (that's why the Blast Radius is so darned small).

Rifts: Book of Magic, page 150.

RBoM, page 150, Annihilate text wrote:The spell creates a small black orb the size of a baseball that appears above the open palm, The is anti-matter that has been brought through dimensional barriers from another universe. Powerful forces keep the substance sealed in a magical sphere.
...snip...
Second, everything in a 10' radius is struck by a contained matter-antimatter explosion that
....snip....
Any other damaging effect that might be unleashed by the anti-matter is contained by the spell's magic.

Me wrote: 1) the AM isn't magical, its just summoned.
2) only magic is the summoning of the AM and the FF containing the explosion
(Imp vs mage doesn't effect the spell effect ether).
3) the rest be physics

The reason the area of effect is so small is because the nuke of a blast is contained by the magic FF the spell created.
As per the above quoted, relevant text.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

RBoM, page 150, Annihilate text wrote:The spell creates a small black orb the size of a baseball that appears above the open palm, The is anti-matter that has been brought through dimensional barriers from another universe. Powerful forces keep the substance sealed in a magical sphere.
...snip...
Second, everything in a 10' radius is struck by a contained matter-antimatter explosion that
....snip....
Any other damaging effect that might be unleashed by the anti-matter is contained by the spell's magic.

Me wrote: 1) the AM isn't magical, its just summoned.
2) only magic is the summoning of the AM and the FF containing the explosion
(Imp vs mage doesn't effect the spell effect ether).
3) the rest be physics

The reason the area of effect is so small is because the nuke of a blast is contained by the magic FF the spell created.
As per the above quoted, relevant text.

You forgot the part that says that ANY OTHER effect of the antimatter/matter explosion is negated by the magic.

That means NO overpressure wave, NO "soft" or "hard" Radiation, NO Heat Pulse, NO damage as the result of propelled particles moving at hypersonic speeds, NO 'anything else' associated with violent subatomic interactions.

Just a supermassive release of [Spock]Pure Energy[/Spock].........hence the reason why anybody else in the area of effect besides the Target, protected by Impervious To Energy (or its Magical, Technological or Psionic equivalent) would be completely immune to the spell's effects.

cornholioprime wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

RBoM, page 150, Annihilate text wrote:The spell creates a small black orb the size of a baseball that appears above the open palm, The is anti-matter that has been brought through dimensional barriers from another universe. Powerful forces keep the substance sealed in a magical sphere.
...snip...
Second, everything in a 10' radius is struck by a contained matter-antimatter explosion that
....snip....
Any other damaging effect that might be unleashed by the anti-matter is contained by the spell's magic.

Me wrote: 1) the AM isn't magical, its just summoned.
2) only magic is the summoning of the AM and the FF containing the explosion
(Imp vs mage doesn't effect the spell effect ether).
3) the rest be physics

The reason the area of effect is so small is because the nuke of a blast is contained by the magic FF the spell created.
As per the above quoted, relevant text.

You forgot the part that says that ANY OTHER effect of the antimatter/matter explosion is negated by the magic.

That means NO over-pressure wave, NO "soft" or "hard" Radiation, NO Heat Pulse, NO damage as the result of propelled particles moving at hypersonic speeds, NO 'anything else' associated with violent subatomic interactions.

Just a super-massive release of [Spock]Pure Energy[/Spock].........hence the reason why anybody else in the area of effect besides the Target, protected by Impervious To Energy (or its Magical, Technological or Psionic equivalent) would be completely immune to the spell's effects.

in new color
didn't "forget", it was the part of the Damage that was Contained.
Wasn't getting all technical on everyone, because not all of them could follow the train of thought.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

RBoM, page 150, Annihilate text wrote:The spell creates a small black orb the size of a baseball that appears above the open palm, The is anti-matter that has been brought through dimensional barriers from another universe. Powerful forces keep the substance sealed in a magical sphere.
...snip...
Second, everything in a 10' radius is struck by a contained matter-antimatter explosion that
....snip....
Any other damaging effect that might be unleashed by the anti-matter is contained by the spell's magic.

Me wrote: 1) the AM isn't magical, its just summoned.
2) only magic is the summoning of the AM and the FF containing the explosion
(Imp vs mage doesn't effect the spell effect ether).
3) the rest be physics

The reason the area of effect is so small is because the nuke of a blast is contained by the magic FF the spell created.
As per the above quoted, relevant text.

You forgot the part that says that ANY OTHER effect of the antimatter/matter explosion is negated by the magic.

That means NO over-pressure wave, NO "soft" or "hard" Radiation, NO Heat Pulse, NO damage as the result of propelled particles moving at hypersonic speeds, NO 'anything else' associated with violent subatomic interactions.

Just a super-massive release of [Spock]Pure Energy[/Spock].........hence the reason why anybody else in the area of effect besides the Target, protected by Impervious To Energy (or its Magical, Technological or Psionic equivalent) would be completely immune to the spell's effects.

in new color
didn't "forget", it was the part of the Damage that was Contained.
Wasn't getting all technical on everyone, because not all of them could follow the train of thought.

Correct.

"Contained," in this context (and the context is made clear by reading ALL of the words in the Text), means that everything else except the Energy is prevented by the spell's magic from doing damage; the description of the spell's effects don't even leave the crater radioactive (just hot).

Most importantly, the spell's wording states ".....Any other damaging effect that might be unleashed by the anti-matter...." .

It doesn't say, "any other damaging effect....is contained within the blast radius;" it says "any other damaging effect that might be unleashed..." will be contained by the magic.

If the Spell said, "all other damaging effects unleashed by the anti-matter are contained in the X-foot Radius..." that would be something entirely different, and I would concur with your interpretation.

Normally, the word "contained" means, of course, that that which is contained is held within a set boundary; the wording of this Spell in its totality strongly implies that "contained," here, has a significantly different context.

Mark Hall wrote:I would say impervious to energy would work if one was not the direct target, but merely in the area of effect.

Somewhat agreed.

Impervious to energy would have no effect if you were the direct target, I think we are all in agreement there. The antimatter simply converts part of you to energy which is gonna do some serious damage no matter what.

However a very large % of the energy released by the antimater reaction is gonna be immediatly absorbed by the surrounding matter (the target and the air around the target) and will cause this matter to become superheated expanding gas... ie a typical explosion. There will of course be a good % that is not absorbed by the nearest matter and will continue on as "energy".

Therefore IMO the target takes full damage even if they are ItE but those caught in the area of effect that are ItE would only take 1/2 damage as the shockwave created by the superheated matter is no different than the shockwave created by a traditional high explosive and would therefore still do damage but the radient energy would be negated by the ItE spell.

Impervious to Energy has no effect on the damage from explosions.

Full damage.

Because the containment text is none specific as to it's limits of the containment, no-one can say exactly where the limits of the high energy emitants (x& gamma rays and particulate radiation [& WHATEVER!]) stop, except that they do not get past the 20' diameter limit.

The reason they do not get further then that is due to some sort of magical force field which contains the energy, radiation and blast [& WHATEVER!]. Wether there is additional magics at work at the core of the blast, that might be assumed due to the two levels of damage given stated, I did not care to make such an assumption due to the lack of significant supporting text.

as for the origanal question...

Dr. Doom III wrote:Impervious to Energy has no effect on the damage from explosions.

Full damage.

agrees with D3
GM's can make their own rulings in their own game.

Drewkitty, Unfortunately I am about the only GM for Pally Rifts/NS&S in the greater bay area. Yeah yeah, I
Know but Mystic China/Rifts China is soooo kewl. Here's the idea: I have a Shifter; he picks the Jade
Emperor as his gawd..........First Offensive Spell: Spit Dragon Pearl! Off topic, but........ Annihilate would be
kewl too if it didn't cost so dagnabit much for say a 3rd or 4th level shifter: 300 P.P.E compared to 125
for S.D.P. Easy street. of course, you really don't need to train for the chi aspect-a small pearl with 1 chi
from your original PE (Average PE 12); thats 12d6 M.D.!!!!

You don't need Chi magic for dragon pearl. Remember that according to mystic china any and all Chi magic spells can be converted to a standard invocation but cost double the PPE.

Mind unless your Non-chi mage is unusual he won't have enough Chi to do much with it.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:You don't need Chi magic for dragon pearl. Remember that according to mystic china any and all Chi magic spells can be converted to a standard invocation but cost double the PPE.

Mind unless your Non-chi mage is unusual he won't have enough Chi to do much with it.

Only the Non-Living Chi Spells & Non-Geomantic Spells can be converted to Western magic. Not 'any and all'.

Agrees that most western mages do not have much chi to empower chi magic.

As for he Dragon Pearl, it also matters if you convert the damage to MD or not, while it's magic, it is the invested chi determining how much damage it does, not the PPE.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:You don't need Chi magic for dragon pearl. Remember that according to mystic china any and all Chi magic spells can be converted to a standard invocation but cost double the PPE.

Mind unless your Non-chi mage is unusual he won't have enough Chi to do much with it.

Only the Non-Living Chi Spells & Non-Geomantic Spells can be converted to Western magic. Not 'any and all'.

Agrees that most western mages do not have much chi to empower chi magic.

As for he Dragon Pearl, it also matters if you convert the damage to MD or not, while it's magic, it is the invested chi determining how much damage it does, not the PPE.

Damnit you're right; how long to train for chi?

Grandil wrote:Damnit you're right; how long to train for chi?

To be train in chi usage, along with some basic MA & meditation training, takes a year of dedicated training. That means doing abso*bleep*lutly nothing else while doing it.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Grandil wrote:Damnit you're right; how long to train for chi?

To be train in chi usage, along with some basic MA & meditation training, takes a year of dedicated training. That means doing abso*bleep*lutly nothing else while doing it.

Well maybe a lot of waxing cars, painting fences, painting houses and sanding decks...

Thinyser wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Grandil wrote:Damnit you're right; how long to train for chi?

To be train in chi usage, along with some basic MA & meditation training, takes a year of dedicated training. That means doing abso*bleep*lutly nothing else while doing it.

Well maybe a lot of waxing cars, painting fences, painting houses and sanding decks...

those might be a part of the MA training, yes.
And driving in nails with one blow, catching flys with chopsticks......

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Thinyser wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Grandil wrote:Damnit you're right; how long to train for chi?

To be train in chi usage, along with some basic MA & meditation training, takes a year of dedicated training. That means doing abso*bleep*lutly nothing else while doing it.

Well maybe a lot of waxing cars, painting fences, painting houses and sanding decks...

those might be a part of the MA training, yes.
And driving in nails with one blow, catching flys with chopsticks......

Actually, it takes about 5 minutes to train for the use of Celestial Calligraphy, I'm not sure if training in MA
would take that long in a Time hole it would go down to a month. See below.

Grandil wrote:Drewkitty, Unfortunately I am about the only GM for Pally Rifts/NS&S in the greater bay area. Yeah yeah, I
Know but Mystic China/Rifts China is soooo kewl. Here's the idea: I have a Shifter; he picks the Jade
Emperor as his gawd..........First Offensive Spell: Spit Dragon Pearl! Off topic, but........ Annihilate would be
kewl too if it didn't cost so dagnabit much for say a 3rd or 4th level shifter: 300 P.P.E compared to 125
for S.D.P. Easy street. of course, you really don't need to train for the chi aspect-a small pearl with 1 chi
from your original PE (Average PE 12); thats 12d6 M.D.!!!!

I'm sorry this is narcissism, but I'm still using this dagnabit as an example. Now if the Shifter was trained in
An Yin K.F........there you have it.
Can we move this thread? I can't, I'm at jobsearch.......

Grandil wrote:Actually, it takes about 5 minutes to train for the use of Celestial Calligraphy, I'm not sure if training in MA
would take that long in a Time hole it would go down to a month. See below.

Maybe five min to be trained on 'How to use a specific CC spell paper", not "all types". For while CC might be more standardized then most magic forms, it's still magic, requiring a bit of subjectivity, thus each Immortalist's CC's will be different. Not to mention the Wu Shih using the CC spell.

Besides training to set the magic free correctly and actually creating the magic are two vastly different things.

Grandil wrote:I'm sorry this is narcissism, but I'm still using this dagnabit as an example. Now if the Shifter was trained in
An Yin K.F........there you have it.
Can we move this thread? I can't, I'm at jobsearch.......

WE could just let id die of natural causes.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Grandil wrote:Actually, it takes about 5 minutes to train for the use of Celestial Calligraphy, I'm not sure if training in MA
would take that long in a Time hole it would go down to a month. See below.

Maybe five min to be trained on 'How to use a specific CC spell paper", not "all types". For while CC might be more standardized then most magic forms, it's still magic, requiring a bit of subjectivity, thus each Immortalist's CC's will be different. Not to mention the Wu Shih using the CC spell.

Besides training to set the magic free correctly and actually creating the magic are two vastly different things.

Grandil wrote:I'm sorry this is narcissism, but I'm still using this dagnabit as an example. Now if the Shifter was trained in
An Yin K.F........there you have it.
Can we move this thread? I can't, I'm at jobsearch.......

WE could just let id die of natural causes.

OK, Thats cool, & again you're right!