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Ok,

I didn't want to derail the Protoculture/Missile thread, so I decided to start my own. As has been stated in that thread, we have some serious problems with the current interpretation of Protoculture and its usage by the UEF. This gets especially onerous for any players who happen to be in either Invid Invasion campaigns or REF/Pioneer Mission/Sentinels Mission campaigns in deep space as they will basically be incapable of playing a mecha jockey that pilots/drives anything other than a Mospeada/Shadow Chronicles mecha. Personally, that is completely and totally unacceptable (and this is directed at HG, not Palladium). As someone that has had crappy GMs in the past, it sucks when you ask to play a Hovertank driver in the REF (essentially a by-the-book character) and are told you can't because 'thats a Southern Cross mecha' and 'you're not in The Wolfe Pack, so no'. This whole SLMH situation just adds another layer to that problem. The game is supposed to be fun for the players and the GM alike.

However, I wanted to illustrate that the older conception of The Sentinels contained some nuggets that can be easily mined. The main problem with the old Eternity/Academy comics was that Tom Mason and Chris Ulm basically just adapted the Jack McKinney novels instead of actually using the scripts from The Sentinels (anyone who has read the 2 script books knows thats readily apparent as they are in some cases radically different). In a number of cases it lead to some serious continuity issues that could have been avoided had they simply NOT adapted the McKinney novelizations. (Ok, I'll get to the point as I'm sure some of you are going 'What does this have to do with anything?')

According to The Sentinels scripts, The Army of the Southern Cross is the ground forces component of the REF. Its rather straight forward and is logical when you consider the ASC is the UEF Army. Almost every single version of The Sentinels, barring the 1st edition RPG, has the REF using ALOT of Southern Cross equipment. However, because of Tommy Yune's hamfisted approach to rebooting the continuity, its almost a forgone conclusion that the REF will basically be divested of its ASC mecha (I ain't gonna hold my breath to see if the opposite is true). Its also almost certain that the ASC mecha will (stupidly) run on SLMH instead of protoculture. Again, this puts players in a bad position. So, lets 'reboot' (sort of) The Sentinels.

1.) After end of the 2nd Robotech War, there is a massive exodus from the Earth by civilians, government officials and whatever troops they can scrape up. The planet, having gone through a second Rain of Death, is also in the throes of going through another round of fighting with demobilized hostile alien forces. More and more people say 'screw reconstruction, we barely survived the last one'. Troops rotated out to the Pioneer Mission bring their ASC mecha with them. Also, stocks of old VF-1s and Destroids are brought out of mothball and anyone with a day's worth of training is slapped into one. The REF, having to simplify its Logistics Train, initiates a general Service Life Extension Program for all mecha in its inventory to upgrade to the 'newer' protoculture cells. That means all VF-1s, Logans, Sylphides, AGACs, Hovertanks etc will use the newer power scheme.

2.) Sometime after The Invid Occupation begins, the REF finally reaches Tirol. There they encounter The Regent's troops. Since they have upgraded their forces, you can now have good old rip-roaring fun playing a Hovertank driver against Inorganics or whatever. This will follow the whole 'Sentinels War' and the 'planet hopping' campaign for more than a decade to defeat the Invid where ever they are. Best of all, you now have a whole wealth of more options to play including (in addition to the standard Shadow Chronicles RPG)
a.) Full-size Zentraedi with their old-style mecha
b.) Micronized Zentraedi piloting 'enemy' micronian mecha (the Z-1, Z-2, ZSB and Z-4)
c.) Bioroid pilots that are Reprocessed Humans (captured during the 2nd Robotech War, but freed at the end), Tirolian or Zentraedi piloting either Standard Bioroids or Bioroid Interceptors
d.) Old timer UEF VF-1 or Destroid pilots
e.) Southern Cross characters with their stuff
f.) Members of The Sentinels confederation of aliens (adapt the old rules)

Just for fun, since I found some pages of the old issues of The Sentinels comics in electronic format, I thought I would run us down memory lane so to speak...

The Sentinels view the REF's armament (01)

The Sentinels view the REF's armament (02)

The Sentinels view the REF's armament (03)

The Sentinels view the REF's armament (04)

Southern Cross vehicles galore (01)

Just to reiterate, The Sentinels and Invid Occupied Earth should be campaigns that are inclusive. As it stands now, they are all but exclusive and that hurts players. Ultimately, we're probably going to have to make lemonade from the rather large batch of lemons we're being given courtesy of Tommy Yune.

Almost every single version of The Sentinels, barring the 1st edition RPG, has the REF using ALOT of Southern Cross equipment.

I'd like to point out that the original Sentinels RPG had Southern Cross Mecha, Southern Cross Armour, Southern Cross spacecraft and Southern Cross personal weapons and individual equipment listed as being used with the REF. It just didn't stat out most of the items.

Nice pics. thou the Ajax being larger then the Armored-VF-1 seams kinda odd to me... but honestly i'm not keen on their exact sizes.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:Nice pics. thou the Ajax being larger then the Armored-VF-1 seams kinda odd to me... but honestly i'm not keen on their exact sizes.

They hosed up on the scale, for certain. However, did you notice the variant Spartan from the first pic in SMAV 41? Took me by surprise when I noticed it. Funny little things the Waltrip Brothers snuck in from time to time.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:Nice pics. thou the Ajax being larger then the Armored-VF-1 seams kinda odd to me... but honestly i'm not keen on their exact sizes.

They hosed up on the scale, for certain. However, did you notice the variant Spartan from the first pic in SMAV 41? Took me by surprise when I noticed it. Funny little things the Waltrip Brothers snuck in from time to time.

Actually I did notice that. I wasn't sure if that was a Spartan Variant or an Excalibur variant. Now the next question, what is the mecha to the left of it. That one looks like another variant.

Tiree wrote:Actually I did notice that. I wasn't sure if that was a Spartan Variant or an Excalibur variant. Now the next question, what is the mecha to the left of it. That one looks like another variant.

Looks to be a Defender. Its partially obscured by the hover transport and Max, so its likely just a regular old Defender.

I like the idea. It has always seemed odd to me that if HG could get new animation done, why not just retcon the entire series? Start from scratch and give us a single, continuous, unified universe. We all know the story, but if there was a visible lineage between the VF-1, Logan, and Alpha designs and we could see the VF-1 aspects in the Spartas, it would be a better world.

I still like the idea of Sentinels over the rest of the eras of play, simply because you can chase the Invid across the fallen Master's Empire and beyond for years if you want without ever touching the same world twice. That and just because the Sentinels races that were presented are the official races, doesn't mean that they have to be the ONLY Sentinels races. There is more freedom for a GM in Sentinels.

I'd be happy if they kept the Carbonarans and the Praxians. The others I'm more iffy on.

I've taken a basically simillar aproach to my current Robotech campaign, with mecha from all eras apearing.

Macross era mecha are mostly relagated to colony defense. Their power keeps them in use but outdated systems and dwindling stockpiles of replacement parts generally keeps them off the front lines.

Southern Cross mecha fill specific roles, Hovertanks acting as "high mobillity" calvary supporting/supported by destroids. Logans are air superiority so they generally are part of planetary defense. Ajax are special use space fighters, nowhere near as prevalent as Alphas and Betas but filling many space roles. I'm waiting for the new SC book to see what roles the NTBs will fill.

Sentinals, the destroids and Zen mecha make sense to me so's I just finished a personal project to update them based on the data in the new Macross book. They are used both in space and planetside. The Zen pods are starting to be phased out in favor of the Bioroid Interceptor. Also a few "rogue" inorganics turn up from time to time to harrass the heroes.

Macross II, I've got the books so's I'm puttin' them to use. Just finished the last conversion of these designs along with the Sentinals mecha. The MII destroids are extremely costly in resources so they are produced in relatively small numbers and added "here and there" to other destroid squadrons to improve firepower. The aero Valkyrie is a "relatively low cost" planetary defense mecha. The space Valkyrie was an attempt to produce a low cost strike fighter that only works "as advertised" with its SAP pack and is therefore more resource expensive than the Beta so only used in small numbers. The Zentradi Valkyrie is issued to the most loyal, elite Zetradi pilots. The Marduk are the mysterious new power on the scene.

-POUNCER

Cannylite wrote:You know when I was running my Sentinels campaign back in '90-something (i'm old so sue me) I basically took what the RPG said (that only the wolfepack had hovertanks) and threw it out the window.

Yea, I did the same thing, though I ran mine in the mid-90s.

So I say hell yeah lets do this RSCF. Behind ya 100%

Hehe....

P.S. The Ajacs is still probably my most favorite veritech of the entire series.

Yea, the Ajax is probably my favourite as well, though I've come to really like the design of the Sylphide. The latter definitely had a good deal of potential and might have been featured more prominently had the series not been canceled early. There is enough room to add 6 weapon stations in addition to the primary four (2 on either side of each wing spar and one each on the interior nacelle) which would allow it to carry 10 medium range missiles!

BTW, it occured to me that someone could potentially modify a Gladiator (REF upgrade to the Spartan) by using part of the upper torso of the Excaliber (REF upgrade to the Tomahawk). Simply change the upper torso, but use the Gladiator's arms. I'm assuming the Excaliber uses teh same 190mm Hammerhead SRMs that the Alpha packs to be able to justify the space occupied in the 2 shoulder missile pods. Might have to see about Greg Lane doing a drawing of that one day. Basically, a Missilier-version of the Gladiator to give it a bit more punch in combat.

In fact, the GR-102 Missile Pod on the Gladiator (now that I think about it) should be able to use x12 190mm Hammerhead Short Range Missiles in place of the x36 78mm(?) Mini-missiles. Might have to go through the REF Destroids and see what can be changed.

Beatmeclever wrote:That and just because the Sentinels races that were presented are the official races, doesn't mean that they have to be the ONLY Sentinels races. There is more freedom for a GM in Sentinels.

There are actually a number of unused designs for alien species from the preproduction phase of The Sentinels.

Unused aliens w/Sentinels Races as height comparison (01)

Unused aliens w/Sentinels Races as height comparison (02)

Edit: Of course, I can't forget to mention the revamp of the alien races from Prelude. That actually made the Karbarrans, Garudans and Haydonites significantly better.

Revamped Sentinels Races (01)

Revamped Sentinels Races (02)

Then there is a nice preproduction arming doublets and weaponry set from SDC: Southern Cross that would be perfect for the Praxians as well as the more heavily armoured chariot mecha that was to have appeared.

Praxian Armour replacement

Baroque Blaster and Compound Bow

Motorcycle Chariot (01)

Motorcycle Chariot and Pegasus Mecha

Pegasus Mecha and Non-transformable(?) Heavy Chariot

Of course, another revamp idea is to make the Regent's forces actually pilot the Scrim (delete the gas for mini-missiles instead), Crann and Odeon and add the Grappler and Kerogga to his forces. No Inorganics, no 'standard' Invid. That way players dont automatically know the Invid in space are the same as on Earth.

Since I've been thinking about it, I went back and started looking over the REF Destroid design sheets. Something occured to me when I took a good look at the Little Monster (uRRG Thundercracker). The weapon arms should each contain x2 LRM launchers! First, above and below the particle cannon at the front are what could easily be missile pod doors. Not just that, but at the back, in the exact same spots, are exhaust ports like those on the Monster. Why would the Little Monster have them if they didn't house missiles? Delete the drum bombs (that made NO SENSE whatsoever, they're probably the mecha's 2 reflex furnaces) but add x4 430mm Derringer LRM Launchers (upgraded version of those carried by the Phalanx) each holding 3 missiles for a total of 12 LRMs. Also, it seemed kinda weird that the back end had what looked to be small-bore beam cannons for AAA and Ground Suppression.

So...(weapons modded based on old uRRG file)

HWR-03-Mk I Thundercracker Weapons Loadout
5 x big bore particle beam cannons mounted on the upper fuselage and in the weapon arms
4 x medium bore particle beam cannons mounted on the back
6 x Derringer-B 430mm Long Range Missiles in chin-mounted launcher
12 x Derringer-B 430mm Long Range mounted in the weapon arms (2 pods per arm, 3 missiles per pod)

I don't know about you, but this thing would eat the HWR-00-Mk II Monster for breakfast. Its faster and carries more heavy armament than its predecessor.

Thundercracker lineart (01)

if you have anymore don't stop WOW AWESOME

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:

Beatmeclever wrote:That and just because the Sentinels races that were presented are the official races, doesn't mean that they have to be the ONLY Sentinels races. There is more freedom for a GM in Sentinels.

There are actually a number of unused designs for alien species from the preproduction phase of The Sentinels.

Unused aliens w/Sentinels Races as height comparison (01)

Unused aliens w/Sentinels Races as height comparison (02)

Edit: Of course, I can't forget to mention the revamp of the alien races from Prelude. That actually made the Karbarrans, Garudans and Haydonites significantly better.

Revamped Sentinels Races (01)

Revamped Sentinels Races (02)

Then there is a nice preproduction arming doublets and weaponry set from SDC: Southern Cross that would be perfect for the Praxians as well as the more heavily armoured chariot mecha that was to have appeared.

Praxian Armour replacement

Baroque Blaster and Compound Bow

Motorcycle Chariot (01)

Motorcycle Chariot and Pegasus Mecha

Pegasus Mecha and Non-transformable(?) Heavy Chariot

Of course, another revamp idea is to make the Regent's forces actually pilot the Scrim (delete the gas for mini-missiles instead), Crann and Odeon and add the Grappler and Kerogga to his forces. No Inorganics, no 'standard' Invid. That way players dont automatically know the Invid in space are the same as on Earth.

What you have under the praxian armor link would be perfect to use for AUL produced armor.

Chris0013 wrote:What you have under the praxian armor link would be perfect to use for AUL produced armor.

Eh, I think the old EBSIS armour from Lancer's Rockers probably fits well enough for standard AUL body armour.

Ok,

this is an interesting vehicle that appeared in The Sentinels comics as a series of dropships capable of carrying a GMU. I had to actually scale it down from the version presented in the comics since I don't have the GMU being anywhere near the size presented by Eternity. Naturally, this is all speculation naturally. Given that the REF lacks any heavy lift capacity under the current scheme until 2031 (which is absurd to say the least), there are few ships in the fleet that could carry the massive mecha like the Monster,Thundercracker or GMU. None of the Southern Cross warships would have been used as heavy lift (they're combat capital starships) and even then only the Tokugawa's could dock with and unload these vehicles. The only other remedy is to use lots of Normandy-class LSTs (refitted Quiltra-Queleual) for logistics.

One other thing to note is the curious fact that there is both a GMU analogue as well as this dropship in Zillion. Its unknown at the moment if this vehicle was simply something the Waltrips thought up during the course of drawing The Sentinels comics (unlikely at that early stage), basing it on the Zillion vehicle, or else this is one of the myriad of designs that was to have been in the animated version.



Developed prior to the Nergal and Ikazuchi-class Troop Cruisers, the Herakles was designed to carry large mecha such as the HWR-series (Monster, Thundercracker) or a Brigade Combat Team Ground Mobile Unit in its oversized cargo bay. Used also by the UEF’s full-sized Zentraedi forces, it carried a number of their mecha rapidly to and from the battlefield, replacing the need to rely on the Frandlar-Tiluvo Reentry Pod. Because of its massive size, it was generally only carried aboard the largest of ships such as the Tokugawa-class Battleship, Valivarre-class Battleship, Normandy-class LST as well as the SDF-03. In order to be able to launch from these ships, the wings are able to partially fold up.

Since the Herakles is the size of a small capital ship, it requires a six heavy lift ventral thrusters to be able to achieve take off from a planet‘s surface. Six massive engine mounted in the rear propel the craft through the atmosphere. Like its smaller cousins the Horizon, Albatross and Gossamer, the Herakles is completely unarmed. However, it is protected with capital ship-grade armour and is known for being incredibly tough.

Because of its specialized nature, few of these craft were acquired and most served with The Pioneer Mission. With the Nergal Brigade Troop Cruiser and Ikazuchi Divisional Troop Cruiser being deployed, the Herakles became almost unnecessary. Still, a number of them were known to have taken part in Operation Groundhog to liberate Tirol from the Invid in 2031. Its unknown if the few remaining on Earth survived The Invid Invasion.

Statistics
Designation: VC-105
Crew: 6 (pilot, copilot, two flight engineers and two loadmasters) with room for up to twelve additional passengers in the cockpit.
Troops: The neck of the dropship can carry a company of 150 infantry soldiers and their equipment.
Weight: 3000 tons (dry)
Length: 60m
Wingspan: 100m or 60m when wings stored.
Height: 40m over the main fuselage

Performance
Max speed at 15,000m: 1100kph
Orbital insertion is achieved by the anti-grav modules.

Armament Loadout
None

VC-105 Herakles (01)

VC-105 Herakles (02)

VC-105 Herakles (03)

VC-105 Herakles (04)

Just wanted to chime in.

This is all SHINY.

That is all.

CavScout wrote:Can you provide the page number that this is actually said/written? I just read the 1st volume of scripts (episode 1-4) and I don’t recall the Southern Cross being mentioned at all (but it is possible I just missed it so hopefully you can provide where explicitly where it was to support your claim).

Eps. #6 Hunter's Moon
Rick: I wish I could just order those troops back to base.
Breetai: What's stopping you?
Rick: Military protocol. When those troops are on the ground, they are under the direct jurisdiction of The Army of the Southern Cross. Edward's calls the shots.

The troops Hunter is referring to include the GMU and its crew, the Wolfe Pack, Vince Grant, Jean Grant, Colonel Wolfe, Jack Baker and Karen Penn.

What the scripts do, however, is does show that the Robotech Expeditionary Force and Robotech Defense Forces (it seems to be plural) are distinct units. Lang is in overall charge of the REF and Leonard is in charge of the Earth based Robotech Defense Forces.

No, the REF is composed of the top 10% of the RDF. They aren't separate entities. The Zentraedi under Breetai appear to be a separate force since Rick and Breetai aren't in the same chain-of-command (Rick even says he can't order Breetai to do anything). I'm also only able to find a single reference to a pluralization of RDF, and thats by Lisa Hayes. All other references I can locate so far, in both script books, use only the singular. In the interest of amity, I'm willing to entertain that Supreme Commander Leonard (who was not labeled as such at this point and was probably The Chief of Staff of the Army) was only in charge of Earth-based units.

In any case, help me out here and tell what page, or pages, the Sentinel’s scripts explicitly state that the Southern Cross is the ground component of the REF.

Script Book 2, p. 40

CavScout wrote:you are wrong to imply (still) that they are not different commands.

You have your opinion. I have mine.

CavScout wrote:While you are right, in that the REF took members of the RDF to fill its ranks, you are wrong to imply (still) that they are not different commands.

Being a diffrent command is diffrent to me then being a compeltly diffrent Government entierly. I'm sure during WW2 the Pacific Theatrer and European Commanders were Diffrent "Commands" but still lead by a single Commander-in-chief.

Will we see a Sentinel book redone? I sure how so. I based a game on Earth with all the mecha time lines. I still do. With the new rules. I also have been running into trouble. Right now I have two parts of puzzle. Macross and Shadow. I can't wait for Masters and New Gen. book. I bease the ASC as being anti-alien. Parts of it. If you follow the Novels to make your game like I did well most of mine game went out the window with the new rules. Old mecha from the Strike Force book were thrown out. I would like to know if Edwards would be cover. That would have cause the UEEF have a little Civil War. I'm looking to see what else comes out of this thread. Thank you for posting it.

MOrab46019 wrote:Will we see a Sentinel book redone? I sure how so. I based a game on Earth with all the mecha time lines. I still do. With the new rules. I also have been running into trouble. Right now I have two parts of puzzle. Macross and Shadow. I can't wait for Masters and New Gen. book. I bease the ASC as being anti-alien. Parts of it. If you follow the Novels to make your game like I did well most of mine game went out the window with the new rules. Old mecha from the Strike Force book were thrown out. I would like to know if Edwards would be cover. That would have cause the UEEF have a little Civil War. I'm looking to see what else comes out of this thread. Thank you for posting it.

I would hope so but so far I get the feeling that we won't. We'll have to wait and see. So in the meantime I spent some time writing up my own versions of the Sentinels' mecha for the game I've got going.

any more vehicle ideas?

How about the S-64 Aircrane Helicopter for the Macross era?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-64_Aircrane

OupS Sorry! Wrong topic.

One thing thought, I just review episode 50 (Triumvirate) and I just realised that the AJAC were introduced in this episod as a new mecha.... so the must be ruled out for the Sentinels.

avollant wrote:OupS Sorry! Wrong topic.

One thing thought, I just review episode 50 (Triumvirate) and I just realised that the AJAC were introduced in this episod as a new mecha.... so the must be ruled out for the Sentinels.

Not necessarily. Its ruled out as a mecha developed prior to, and during most of, The Pioneer Mission (2023 - 2028). However, the schematics of the mecha could have been transmitted to Pioneer Command in deep space via Space Station Liberty before the start of the 2nd Robotech War. This would explain why those forces REF that came back in Mind Games had AGACs as well. Presumably Marie Crystal's unit in Dana's Story was either field testing a large batch of combat prototype AGACs or was the first operational unit (wing perhaps?) to have them in late 2028.

The actual Sentinels Campaign would not have started until after the Invid invaded Earth in 2031. By that time, the AGACs has been through at least one round of mass production.

What I been seeing on line the ASC was cut short. If this was true maybe answers about the AJAX would have been seen. I do like the that there was a test batch of the new mecha used before it went into full scale use.

can /do A.J.A.C rotor blades can be use as a swords (or a V blades or plasma blades )?

Osi O wrote:

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:

avollant wrote:OupS Sorry! Wrong topic.

One thing thought, I just review episode 50 (Triumvirate) and I just realised that the AJAC were introduced in this episod as a new mecha.... so the must be ruled out for the Sentinels.

Not necessarily. Its ruled out as a mecha developed prior to, and during most of, The Pioneer Mission (2023 - 2028). However, the schematics of the mecha could have been transmitted to Pioneer Command in deep space via Space Station Liberty before the start of the 2nd Robotech War. This would explain why those forces REF that came back in Mind Games had AGACs as well. Presumably Marie Crystal's unit in Dana's Story was either field testing a large batch of combat prototype AGACs or was the first operational unit (wing perhaps?) to have them in late 2028.

The actual Sentinels Campaign would not have started until after the Invid invaded Earth in 2031. By that time, the AGACs has been through at least one round of mass production.

Rabid, please explain the difference between the pioneer mission and the sentinels campaigns. I always thought the way they worked out they are/or will be one and the same.

Not to step on Rabid's toes on this but my view has been that the Pioneer mission was the colonization of other worlds by Earth and the pathfinding mission to get the actual location of Tirol.

The Sentinels campaign was after Tirol was found and liberated from the Invid. The Sentinel's ship showed up at Tirol and the UEDF tasked troops and equipment to aid them in liberating their worlds.

Osi O wrote:Rabid, please explain the difference between the pioneer mission and the sentinels campaigns. I always thought the way they worked out they are/or will be one and the same.

Ok, this is the way I view the REF. I consider it to be 3 distinct phases -

The Pioneer Mission: First phase of the REF. Primary mission is to find Tirol and bring the war to The Masters so as to prevent a 2nd Robotech War. Secondarily, the REF is to facilitate the colonization of planets by Earthlings and Zentraedi throughout the galaxy so as to prevent the extinction of Earth-based life (not human life, since its apparent the Zentraedi and Masters are humans). Finally, the REF is to try and uncover the riddle of Protoculture. Its inferred that most of The Pioneer Mission fleet perishes over Earth fighting against The Robotech Masters in 2030 and later during The Invid Invasion in 2031.

This is all based on dialogue from numerous episodes of Robotech, mainly To the Stars, False Start and The Invid Invasion. The Pioneer Mission essentially lasts from 2013 (earliest use of newest generation of Earth warships outside the solar system, reference Khyron's Revenge) to 2031.

The Sentinels Campaign: After the Invid Invasion, the REF is caugh totally unawares by this new alien menace. They finally find Tirol and go there specifically to make peace with the remaining Robotech Masters. They want to offer them the Protoculture Matrix in exchange for help against the Invid who've taken over Earth. Instead, the encounter the forces of the Invid Regent (whose mecha are apparently sufficiently different that they are not immediately recognized as the Invid). This turns into a star hopping campaign to root out the Invid across the galaxy wherever possible. Along the way, the REF makes alliances with several alien races suffering under the oppression of the Invid Regent.

This is based on dialogue from The Invid Invasion, inferred events from The New Generation as well as The Sentinels and The Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles comics. This phase lasts from 2031 to 2043 and is concurrent with the Earth Reclamation Mission. Presumably, the doctrine behind this phase was to deny the Invid on Earth any reinforcements or logistical support from outside the solar system.

The Earth Reclamation Campaign: When the Earth falls to the Invid in 2031, the REF becomes the last remnant of the United Earth Government. It must organize a force capable of retaking the planet from the Invid Regess. This phase starts with the establishment of Point K (and other Advance Bases) in late 2031. Apparently, the main bulk of troops formed the latter Reclamation Missions and were mostly the children of colonists. This is the final phase of the REF (realistically) and lasts from 2031 to 2044.

This is based on dialogue from The Invid Invasion as well as the events of The New Generation.

As you can see, its the REF still, but its missions keep changing. When they first tried to find Tirol, they were going to kick the Masters teeth in as per Admiral Gloval's dialogue. Later, after the Invid Occupation started, the REF changed to one of diplomacy to get aid against the Invid. Finally, it also existed as a means of driving the Invid off every world they were located on to try and retake the Earth.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:

Osi O wrote:Rabid, please explain the difference between the pioneer mission and the sentinels campaigns. I always thought the way they worked out they are/or will be one and the same.

Ok, this is the way I view the REF. I consider it to be 3 distinct phases -

The Pioneer Mission: First phase of the REF. Primary mission is to find Tirol and bring the war to The Masters so as to prevent a 2nd Robotech War. Secondarily, the REF is to facilitate the colonization of planets by Earthlings and Zentraedi throughout the galaxy so as to prevent the extinction of Earth-based life (not human life, since its apparent the Zentraedi and Masters are humans). Finally, the REF is to try and uncover the riddle of Protoculture. Its inferred that most of The Pioneer Mission fleet perishes over Earth fighting against The Robotech Masters in 2030 and later during The Invid Invasion in 2031.

This is all based on dialogue from numerous episodes of Robotech, mainly To the Stars, False Start and The Invid Invasion. The Pioneer Mission essentially lasts from 2013 (earliest use of newest generation of Earth warships outside the solar system, reference Khyron's Revenge) to 2031.

The Sentinels Campaign: After the Invid Invasion, the REF is caugh totally unawares by this new alien menace. They finally find Tirol and go there specifically to make peace with the remaining Robotech Masters. They want to offer them the Protoculture Matrix in exchange for help against the Invid who've taken over Earth. Instead, the encounter the forces of the Invid Regent (whose mecha are apparently sufficiently different that they are not immediately recognized as the Invid). This turns into a star hopping campaign to root out the Invid across the galaxy wherever possible. Along the way, the REF makes alliances with several alien races suffering under the oppression of the Invid Regent.

This is based on dialogue from The Invid Invasion, inferred events from The New Generation as well as The Sentinels and The Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles comics. This phase lasts from 2031 to 2043 and is concurrent with the Earth Reclamation Mission. Presumably, the doctrine behind this phase was to deny the Invid on Earth any reinforcements or logistical support from outside the solar system.

The Earth Reclamation Campaign: When the Earth falls to the Invid in 2031, the REF becomes the last remnant of the United Earth Government. It must organize a force capable of retaking the planet from the Invid Regess. This phase starts with the establishment of Point K (and other Advance Bases) in late 2031. Apparently, the main bulk of troops formed the latter Reclamation Missions and were mostly the children of colonists. This is the final phase of the REF (realistically) and lasts from 2031 to 2044.

This is based on dialogue from The Invid Invasion as well as the events of The New Generation.

As you can see, its the REF still, but its missions keep changing. When they first tried to find Tirol, they were going to kick the Masters teeth in as per Admiral Gloval's dialogue. Later, after the Invid Occupation started, the REF changed to one of diplomacy to get aid against the Invid. Finally, it also existed as a means of driving the Invid off every world they were located on to try and retake the Earth.

To that, I would add a Prequel Mission called:

Liberty Campaign: The mission would be like this: before venturing into the Masters' Empire, the UEGDF would send a mission close to the border wolds of the Masters to build Liberty Station. Liberty Station would have the triple purposes of being the bridgehead of the Pioneer Mission into the Masters Empire; a listening poste to spye on the Masters Empire and Communication relais between Earth and the UEEF.

This is my idea... what do you think?

Cannylite wrote:You know when I was running my Sentinels campaign back in '90-something (i'm old so sue me) I basically took what the RPG said (that only the wolfepack had hovertanks) and threw it out the window. My players were a designated as a special ops team, and they had two hovertanks, a special Horizont (with weapons) an Alpha/Beta team, one REF/UEEF Exclaiber, 2 Invid Fighter Bioriods and an Ajacs. it was to say the least the most fun we have ever had as a playing group. So I say hell yeah lets do this RSCF. Behind ya 100%

I did the same thing. Ours was called the 1st MAG (Mixed Assault Group). We had a VHT, a Logan, a Mac-III, a modified Ajacs (16 Long Range Missiles, 2 Arm Pulse Lasers, helicopter blades became 2 swords), and 3 Alphas.

avollant wrote:Liberty Campaign: The mission would be like this: before venturing into the Masters' Empire, the UEGDF would send a mission close to the border wolds of the Masters to build Liberty Station. Liberty Station would have the triple purposes of being the bridgehead of the Pioneer Mission into the Masters Empire; a listening poste to spye on the Masters Empire and Communication relais between Earth and the UEEF.

This is my idea... what do you think?

One big problem: Its basically established in Dana's Story that Space Station Liberty is inside the solar system. The most likely candidate is near the orbit of Saturn. We know this because The Masters cannot initiate a hyperspace fold of any great distance (at a guess, anything over a few light years) and it was one of their first targets in the opening moments of the 2nd Robotech War. It was sometime after The Invid Invasion in 2031 that Space Station Liberty was moved into deep space.

Liberty observer is probably just a dept on Space Station Liberty whose responsibility is to provide early warning to Earth if anyone comes snooping around. They probably have a direct line to Headquarters on Earth instead or routing to any other post to prevent a loss of message.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:One big problem: Its basically established in Dana's Story that Space Station Liberty is inside the solar system. The most likely candidate is near the orbit of Saturn. We know this because The Masters cannot initiate a hyperspace fold of any great distance (at a guess, anything over a few light years) and it was one of their first targets in the opening moments of the 2nd Robotech War. It was sometime after The Invid Invasion in 2031 that Space Station Liberty was moved into deep space.

Not really, there is nothing that could stop the Liberty Station from being double (like Liberty I and Liberty II). Obviously Liberty I would have to be in the solar system and Liberty II... in deep space.

Chris0013 wrote:Liberty observer is probably just a dept on Space Station Liberty whose responsibility is to provide early warning to Earth if anyone comes snooping around. They probably have a direct line to Headquarters on Earth instead or routing to any other post to prevent a loss of message.

Or more likely the naval squadron charged to protect the Liberty Station and patrol the deep reach of the solar system.

Personnaly, I must add that on all the Robotech serie, the Southern Cross is the one I like the less. Mostly this is due to the over editing and fault in the naration and dialogue. This is too bad because the I did enjoy the fact that the Masters had technologies so advanced they could have wiped the UEDF without a sweat if it wasn't for the fact they were out of resources.

OTOH, military speaking, an undertaking such as the Pioneer Mission would and should require and advance post/Station for support or else they would be obligated to come back to EARTH for simple basic supply.

I would say Zentraedi agents could only go so far in helping provide the information. I get the idea that the Zentraedi were intentionally kept away from Tyrol and in the dark about it's specific whereabouts. That being said, elite Zentraedi (ie Breetai and Exedore) should have enough information that a bit of cartography, some calculus and some educated guess work would put the UEEF in the right ballpark.

Still, knowing about where to go is just a part of the equation. Before you steam your flagship up to the enemy home world, it makes sense to do some reconnaissance to find out what enemy forces are around and what you might have to deal with. So a smaller recon force would have probably proceeded the SDF-3 on it's way to Tyrol.

This force would be a great adventure opportunity and a chance to try out first generation veritechs (Maybe a few of the new VF-1R, supported by Conbats, Ghosts and Lancers) against the remnants of the Zentraedi forces and for some first encounters with the Robotech Masters.

In addition to recon, this force would probably be responsible for establishing a few outposts to provide supply and repair stops for the SDF-3 and flee on their way to Tyrol, or to fall back to if the fighting got too heavy.

avollant wrote:

Chris0013 wrote:Liberty observer is probably just a dept on Space Station Liberty whose responsibility is to provide early warning to Earth if anyone comes snooping around. They probably have a direct line to Headquarters on Earth instead or routing to any other post to prevent a loss of message.

Or more likely the naval squadron charged to protect the Liberty Station and patrol the deep reach of the solar system.

This makes sense to me...you would not put an important communications and resupply post in the middle of nowhere without a fleet to help keep it safe.

At the very least there is a change in role and a major renovation for SSL between TMS and NG. Otherwise, where did the space to build and store the Neutron-S missiles come from?

mechanimorph wrote:

Jefffar wrote:At the very least there is a change in role and a major renovation for SSL between TMS and NG. Otherwise, where did the space to build and store the Neutron-S missiles come from?

The N-S Missiles were Angel Class colony ships which had apparently started production around 2014.

Question: where is it stated that the missiles were actually colony ships? I do not remember that from the series, so is it from the novels, a fan site, or is there some official answer to that?

Also, if there is a thread that explains this, could someone post a link so this topic does not derail the thread?

Thanks.

Archr

CavScout wrote: So I am kinda of confused on which parts you take as “canon” and which you don’t.

Its Cherry Picking, just about every Robotech fan has done it, They take what they like form a source, and ignore what they dont.

CavScout wrote:One, it goes to against the idea that the REF and ASC are in one unified command. If one is to take this at face value, it is out that a General of the REF cannot command a Colonel of the ASC. Toss in the issue that force supposedly under the command of Edwards weren’t even ASC troops to begin with. The troops directly under Edwards command are aerial units, as seen in the first counter-attack launched against the Invid. Edwards assumed control when they hit the ground but they weren't ASC at the start.

No, because Edwards states at one point that all Vince Grant and the ground forces have done is get expensive RDF equipment blown up. Furthermore, as I said before, Lang states that the REF is made up of the top 10% of the RDF. Its a unified command ala CentComm. Rick Hunter, as per Robotech Art 3, is commander of the Expeditionary Air Forces.

Second, the notion that Edwards isn’t under Rick’s direct command is later contradicted on p71 after Edwards tells Vince that that “all ground based operations are under my direct command” Rick tells him that “this time he is taking orders from me” with Edwards telling him he is right.

IINM, its because Edwards and his unit are operating IN SPACE, which means the Air Force (that Rick is commander of) is calling the shots.

So you have two conflicting scenes where in one Rick says he can’t tell Edwards what to do yet in another he asserts such authority and Edward acquiesces.

No, there are forces operating in 2 separate capacities.

I would also note that the scripts show the SDF3 launching from Earth directly to Tirol and engaging the Invid, something you vehemently oppose. So I am kinda of confused on which parts you take as “canon” and which you don’t.

The same as everyone else. I pick and choose, just like you do.

No need to start taking shots at each other...we all pick and choose from all the sources.....I take alot away from the novels but stay away from all the mystical protoculture crap.

Why is it a Debate, RSCF's opinion on the REF/ASC/Sentinels is his Opinion. The Sentinels was a Poorly Written and Badly Executed "Sequel" to Robotech.
and I'm Pretty Sure a "ReBoot" wouldn't use the Exact Same fact as they were (Badly) Written in the Various incarnations of the Sentinels over the past 20+ years.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:Why is it a Debate, RSCF's opinion on the REF/ASC/Sentinels is his Opinion. The Sentinels was a Poorly Written and Badly Executed "Sequel" to Robotech.
and I'm Pretty Sure a "ReBoot" wouldn't use the Exact Same fact as they were (Badly) Written in the Various incarnations of the Sentinels over the past 20+ years.

I agree at 500%!

Please, lets just carry on.

The main problem as I see it is that you have a military story (and by extension the RPG) being written by people who have no idea how the military operates...

whoever the theater commander is would have full jurisdiction over all troops.....Eisenhower was supreme commander of allied forces in Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_He ... nary_Force

He was in command of American, British, Canadian, and French troops....If he told Field Marshal Mongomery (a British officer) what to do....Monty damn well did it.

as far as the RPG...the MOSs are all out of whack...the majority of the MOSs under the military specialist are actually carried out by enlisted troops. and the skill selections for all of it, especially basic training, are crap.

I agreed that the military mos aew a little out of wrack, but in the novel Rick Hunter was the mission commander, Lisa Hayes-Hunter was in captain of the SDF-3, T.R. Edwards was in charge of the Ground forces, Dr. Lang was in charge of all the Science (including medical), and Max Sterling was the CAG for the mission to Tirol.

So the Order of Operations for the REF was
Rick Hunter Was in Overall Command of the Mission
Lisa Hayes-Hunter was in charge of the SDF-3 and ws also the 2nd in command of the overall forces
Then there was T.R. Edwards was in charge of the Ground forces and 3rd in command.

That is was they got a government established on Tirol with Dr. Lang and T.R. Edwards on it among others civilians they brought to Keep a check and balance called Utopia Government I Believe but I can not remember the complete members of the government.

wilenburg wrote:I agreed that the military mos aew a little out of wrack, but in the novel Rick Hunter was the mission commander, Lisa Hayes-Hunter was in captain of the SDF-3, T.R. Edwards was in charge of the Ground forces, Dr. Lang was in charge of all the Science (including medical), and Max Sterling was the CAG for the mission to Tirol.

So the Order of Operations for the REF was
Rick Hunter Was in Overall Command of the Mission
Lisa Hayes-Hunter was in charge of the SDF-3 and ws also the 2nd in command of the overall forces
Then there was T.R. Edwards was in charge of the Ground forces and 3rd in command.

That is was they got a government established on Tirol with Dr. Lang and T.R. Edwards on it among others civilians they brought to Keep a check and balance called Utopia Government I Believe but I can not remember the complete members of the government.

Based on this breakdown...Edwards is answerable to Hunter in all things.

Chris0013 wrote:

wilenburg wrote:I agreed that the military mos aew a little out of wrack, but in the novel Rick Hunter was the mission commander, Lisa Hayes-Hunter was in captain of the SDF-3, T.R. Edwards was in charge of the Ground forces, Dr. Lang was in charge of all the Science (including medical), and Max Sterling was the CAG for the mission to Tirol.

So the Order of Operations for the REF was
Rick Hunter Was in Overall Command of the Mission
Lisa Hayes-Hunter was in charge of the SDF-3 and ws also the 2nd in command of the overall forces
Then there was T.R. Edwards was in charge of the Ground forces and 3rd in command.

That is was they got a government established on Tirol with Dr. Lang and T.R. Edwards on it among others civilians they brought to Keep a check and balance called Utopia Government I Believe but I can not remember the complete members of the government.

Based on this breakdown...Edwards is answerable to Hunter in all things.

That would be correct