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So I just read the latest press release. I got really excited when Kevin started talking about all the new releases Palladium is putting out soon..only to be let down when I didnt spot any BTS books for 09. Why oh why? I feel teased and discarded.

You get used to it, just like any abused spouse.

Sir Neil wrote:You get used to it, just like any abused spouse.

I know it's wrong to laugh, but that was funny.
as far as no support for BTS: yeah, it's a bummer. I was hoping at least one of the 2 missing core books would make an appearance this year. but no such luck.

I'm sorry to hear it as well. I'm wondering if Dead Reign really sold that well that it's going to get a book before the BTS, or maybe BTS really sold so bad.

It is sad too that the only BTS books they have made are BTS, Boxed Nightmares, and then BTS-2...

dark brandon wrote:or maybe BTS really sold so bad.

I'm afraid BTS-2 sold so bad that it really made the guys lose their enthusiasm about it. BTS-2 is the second edition of an old game that had its impact when it came out and a small, solid fanbase but was probably more or less forgotten by the rpgaming community as a whole. maybe some listened up when BTS-2 was first announced, but after years and years of delaying it, there was no buzz around it when it finally came out. and while BTS-1 was a complete game, BTS-2 isnt, so I guess some were players were frustrated, others didnt buy it at all, thinking I'll take a look at it when all core books are out...etc. There are many possible reasons why BTS-2 presumeably didnt sell that good. And, the horror section is an extra-tough market, smaller and with hard competition from excellent RPGs which do get support from their publishers.

I would buy ANYTHING that comes out for BTS, but as there is nothing announced even in the ambitious plan for 2009, Im more and more afraid this game-line is dead (but its not gonna die completely as long as fans like us play it!).

Vidynn wrote:I'm afraid BTS-2 sold so bad that it really made the guys lose their enthusiasm about it. BTS-2 is the second edition of an old game that had its impact when it came out and a small, solid fanbase but was probably more or less forgotten by the rpgaming community as a whole. maybe some listened up when BTS-2 was first announced, but after years and years of delaying it, there was no buzz around it when it finally came out. and while BTS-1 was a complete game, BTS-2 isnt, so I guess some were players were frustrated, others didnt buy it at all, thinking I'll take a look at it when all core books are out...etc. There are many possible reasons why BTS-2 presumeably didnt sell that good. And, the horror section is an extra-tough market, smaller and with hard competition from excellent RPGs which do get support from their publishers.

I would buy ANYTHING that comes out for BTS, but as there is nothing announced even in the ambitious plan for 2009, Im more and more afraid this game-line is dead (but its not gonna die completely as long as fans like us play it!).

Really, Dead Reign just seemed like some source book for BTS, or I think it would have fit better. It's too bad they went and made it it's own game.

IMO, it sure made sense to make DR a stand-alone game apart from BTS both settingwise and from an economical point of view. I guess it would have sold a lot less if it were just a sourcebook for BTS, especially with BTS practically dying after years of non-support.

in the long run, DR is in danger too. I guess we know the pattern surrounding PBs smaller game lines by now: produce a rulesbook. produce a sourcebook, or two or none (but keep announcing them!). after a while, move on to the next small game, produce a rulesbook.

Im still trying to think positive and think this is more a matter or the fact that BTS is just a hard game to make material for.

I recall Kevin saying it took a lot longer to write BTS than it did most of his other books. I wondered about that till I started submitting materials for the Rifter, and now I understand him all too well.

Writing for games with outlandish and wild activities like Rifts is actually pretty easy. BTS is a VERY subdued tone (it could exist in the world we live in its so subdued) and the method of playing psionics is different to anything else Palladium has (the psychic leeching off the supernatural is a genius device and one of the best parts of the game in my book).

Writing creatures, adventure, abilities and so on to fit in this subdued setting is extremely difficult for me at times and I’ve been Gm'ing this game for years (before 2nd edition).

Kevin has also mentioned in the past that he has a personal commitment and interest to BTS and really wants to take his time with it. That could be taken as a stalling method or as truth. But I can say in 2005 when the book got released he sent out a Tomb Grotesque teaser in the Rifter and was really excited about it. Then the Crisis hit Palladium early 2006 and wrecked everything.

I went to the 2006 open house and I personally sifter through all of the artwork with Kevin on the desk that was being put together for Tomb Grotesque book. I don’t think he'd have bought and paid for all the art if he's not planning to use it

The last thing I can think of is that he's got a ton of submitted sourcebooks that he’s working on first to help get a lot of material out this year. I noticed that none of this material at this point is BTS. That could be the issue I mentioned earlier in that it’s hard to write BTS material or perhaps people are waiting till the Tomb Grotesque or Beyond Arcanum before they decide to write anything.

I’ve mentioned in a few other posts that I’ve talked to Kevin a few months ago and he still has plenty of interest in BTS and gave me the go ahead to submit two different sourcebooks/adventure books for BTS. I’m working on the first one now, but as mentioned BTS just takes time to get it right (and I’m just harsh on my own work and a perfectionist to begin with).

As it stands I’m keeping the cynicism and negativity out of the BTS picture. Those are great tools to use while playing the game, not while discussing its future.

mrloucifer wrote:Im still trying to think positive and think this is more a matter or the fact that BTS is just a hard game to make material for.

This sounds right to me. BTS-2 material would have be pitched just right without ruining the atmosphere - good luck in your writing ventures.

Thinking about it, part of the problem for budding BTS-2 writers could be the lack of the magic system et al. There's plenty to be getting on gaming with, but it must be difficult writing a sourcebook for a line without knowing how Kevin wants big parts of it to function.

sHaka wrote:Thinking about it, part of the problem for budding BTS-2 writers could be the lack of the magic system et al. There's plenty to be getting on gaming with, but it must be difficult writing a sourcebook for a line without knowing how Kevin wants big parts of it to function.

Exactly... my sourcebook materials will not touch the subject as I know nothing about it yet. The PPE and ISP rules are so unique in this game that I wouldnt want to scribe anything until I have a clue how Kevin plans to present it.

sHaKa and mrloucifer, you two should make the pitches anyway. If Kevin decides that you need the magic rules, he can always supply you with an early draft. I have been working off the asumption that the new rules are compatible enough with the old that they can be easily revised when the new rules do get released The Court of Tarot has magic using characters.

On a similar subject, I am thinking about writing something BtS themed for the next Rifter #0. Is anyone else making some BtS stuff for Rifter 0.1?

Lord Z wrote:On a similar subject, I am thinking about writing something BtS themed for the next Rifter #0. Is anyone else making some BtS stuff for Rifter 0.1?

I thought the due date had passed. Sounds like you know something I dont.

good to hear that you guys are working on BTS-stuff! all the best for that!

Too Bad,if they clear up every thing for '09,maybe 10 will have BtS in it.
What do you think?

gaby wrote:Too Bad,if they clear up every thing for '09,maybe 10 will have BtS in it.
What do you think?

I think if someone turns in a script for BTS, and it's good, you could see one this year. It's just that there needs to be someone to write it.

I know one friend has expressed interest in writing tomb grotesque, but he has another project to finish first.

dark brandon wrote:

gaby wrote:
I know one friend has expressed interest in writing tomb grotesque, but he has another project to finish first.

I doubt Kevin would let anyone else handle T.G., as personal as he makes that project sounds he'll want to write that baby himself. Thats why I stuck to sourcebook/adventure book projects.

mrloucifer wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

gaby wrote:
I know one friend has expressed interest in writing tomb grotesque, but he has another project to finish first.

I doubt Kevin would let anyone else handle T.G., as personal as he makes that project sounds he'll want to write that baby himself. Thats why I stuck to sourcebook/adventure book projects.

Who knows? The friend in question was Roadwarriorfwank, who co-wrote madhaven (Specifically the ghosts), and he said kevin was impressed with them. I'm not sure how kevin would feel about it. On one hand, it would help get a book he promised out a long time ago finally out and nothing says he can add to it to give it his personal touch. On the other hand, it would be just that...most of the work done by someone else.

I definitely do not know anything which you guys do not know about Rifter #0. I'm unaffiliated with it as of this moment. I don't none speak for nobody!

Prince Artemis has written that he would put out Rifter #0.1 when he received enough material, and he seems to have it. I am guessing that he intends to make a Rifter #0.2 eventually. I can't find anywhere that he ever wrote that. He has, however, hinted at it when he wrote things like this...

It's mostly a wait and see type of thing at this point. I won't be doing more than one a year regardless.

dark brandon wrote:Who knows? The friend in question was Roadwarriorfwank, who co-wrote madhaven (Specifically the ghosts), and he said kevin was impressed with them. I'm not sure how kevin would feel about it. On one hand, it would help get a book he promised out a long time ago finally out and nothing says he can add to it to give it his personal touch. On the other hand, it would be just that...most of the work done by someone else.

True... you never know.

[quote="Lord Z"] I don't none speak for nobody! [quote]

WURD!

mrloucifer wrote:I doubt Kevin would let anyone else handle T.G., as personal as he makes that project sounds he'll want to write that baby himself.

agreed, I guess it wouldnt do the book any good if a freelancer writes it - and then KS doesnt like it or feels that the book isnt what he would have done, so he goes for a rewrite and then its another 1-2-3 years before it gets published.

I dont have the BtS books but I was thinking that since there is supposed to be a Tome Grotesque why not instead write a Tome Demonica? Have all kinds of low level demons not mentioned in the other Palladium lines?

MrMom wrote:I dont have the BtS books but I was thinking that since there is supposed to be a Tome Grotesque why not instead write a Tome Demonica? Have all kinds of low level demons not mentioned in the other Palladium lines?

The Tomb Grotesque will be the book with new creatures specific to BTS, Beyond Arcanum will be the book based on magic in a BTS world.

Vidynn wrote:
agreed, I guess it wouldnt do the book any good if a freelancer writes it - and then KS doesnt like it or feels that the book isnt what he would have done, so he goes for a rewrite and then its another 1-2-3 years before it gets published.

Hence why its safer writing something that more of an adventure idea/sourcebook not directly related to the upcoming two main books. Honestly, TG and BA feel more like core system books than sourcebooks to me so I dont have an issue hitting up the main themes of what I'm working on (ghost stories in my first source book and an adventure guide/sourcebook in the other.)

Why not write a Tome Divine then if Grotesque is supposed to be the evil side of it. Just a thought anyway

This is pure speculation on my part, but I don’t think there will ever be a book of Divine beings in the BTS world, or ever an addition of Divine beings in general.

The way I’ve read, interpreted and played BTS is that it’s a game of loneliness, paranoia, overwhelming odds, shadows and darkness for the player characters. These few fight a war that the rest of the world doesn’t know of and even if they did they wouldn’t believe it… they wouldn’t even understand it.

Putting in Divine beings as part of the war against the supernatural would change this dark and dreary tone to an unrecognizable degree.

Now I have a NPC in my game who believes that he’s a son of the Norse god Thor (he’s actually a Latent Psychic under this delusion from the influence of a Devil Ghost). Now doing something like this keeps the theme going, but actually putting a god like Thor would change the playing field and game entirely.

mrloucifer wrote:Putting in Divine beings as part of the war against the supernatural would change this dark and dreary tone to an unrecognizable degree.

That really depends actually. Some divine beings who go by the motto "for the greater good" could very well still keep it a dark enviornment. Even more so, when one realizes that the extream isn't any better.

mrloucifer wrote:Hence why its safer writing something that more of an adventure idea/sourcebook not directly related to the upcoming two main books.

yeah, defenitely better than tackling BA or TG, as was suggested in this thread.

on the other hand, writing other stuff without having access to creatures nor magic is still a complicated task, I guess.

I wonder, maybe KevSim could give Todd Yoho the go to "almost finish" BA and then just have a final look at it, he is co-credited in the catalogue. IMO, BA is the more important book of the two missing core books.

dark brandon wrote:

mrloucifer wrote:Putting in Divine beings as part of the war against the supernatural would change this dark and dreary tone to an unrecognizable degree.

That really depends actually. Some divine beings who go by the motto "for the greater good" could very well still keep it a dark enviornment. Even more so, when one realizes that the extream isn't any better.

True.

Vidynn wrote:

mrloucifer wrote:Hence why its safer writing something that more of an adventure idea/sourcebook not directly related to the upcoming two main books.

yeah, defenitely better than tackling BA or TG, as was suggested in this thread.

on the other hand, writing other stuff without having access to creatures nor magic is still a complicated task, I guess.

I wonder, maybe KevSim could give Todd Yoho the go to "almost finish" BA and then just have a final look at it, he is co-credited in the catalogue. IMO, BA is the more important book of the two missing core books.

IMO, they are both on equal grounds of importance, but for different reasons. I do understand Kevin's (and the majority of the fans) desire to see TG done first, especially after 4 years of the same supernatural creatures in the main book (besides the Rifter and ones you might have created yourself or converted from other books like Rifts: Dark Conversions.)

MrMom wrote:

Why not write a Tome Divine then if Grotesque is supposed to be the evil side of it. Just a thought anyway

That raises a much larger issue of the afterlife in the Megaverse. With the exception of the Warriors of Valhalla briefly mentioned in Rifts Conversion Book 2: Pantheons of the Megaverse, dead people don't seem to go anywhere. Even in the fiction, I've never seen mention of any type of heaven, and re-incarnation doesn't appear much more often than that. Even in Hell dimensions like Hades and Dyval, I'm not seeing many lost souls. Only the Yama Kings in Mystic China seem to have much connection with actual dead people. The Medium PCC class in BtS-2 goes out of its way to sidestep the entire issue of the afterlife -- and this is a character class which speaks with spirits as its major function. Even the ghosts are not true dead people but energy entities which are impersonating the dead. The closest things to angels are the seraphim and the like in Conversion Book 1, but they are really elemental beings if you read the description.

There seems to be an unwritten rule at PBooks that the games are supposed to not address the subject of afterlives. I will have to ask Wayne about this when I can get him on the phone for more than thirty-seconds at a time.

Citizen Lazlo wrote:

Thats what it was supposed to be.

Wow, I had no idea that was the case.

Lord Z wrote:That raises a much larger issue of the afterlife in the Megaverse. With the exception of the Warriors of Valhalla briefly mentioned in Rifts Conversion Book 2: Pantheons of the Megaverse, dead people don't seem to go anywhere. (...)
There seems to be an unwritten rule at PBooks that the games are supposed to not address the subject of afterlives.

well, the Church of Light & Dark has the concepts of Ma'at (> weighing the soul) and Ankh (blessed souls), see D&G pg. 135, and Anubis.
and of course there is Utu, escorting the souls of the dead.
and the Deevil Lords and their attempt to steal the souls in Transit from Utu.

mrloucifer wrote:IMO, they are both on equal grounds of importance, but for different reasons. I do understand Kevin's (and the majority of the fans) desire to see TG done first, especially after 4 years of the same supernatural creatures in the main book (besides the Rifter and ones you might have created yourself or converted from other books like Rifts: Dark Conversions.)

the reason why I find BA more important is, that BTS needs rules for magic and magic-users. its a lot harder to convert those from other games like Nightbane or PF, than converting some monsters from Monsters&Animals et al.

it might be that KS thinks TG is more important, Im not sure about the majority of fans (and no side can offer "proof" I guess).

Vidynn wrote:the reason why I find BA more important is, that BTS needs rules for magic and magic-users. its a lot harder to convert those from other games like Nightbane or PF, than converting some monsters from Monsters&Animals et al.

it might be that KS thinks TG is more important, Im not sure about the majority of fans (and no side can offer "proof" I guess).

Well, it seems to me that the only solution here is to freakin make them both and get the debate over with.

Lord Z wrote:That raises a much larger issue of the afterlife in the Megaverse. With the exception of the Warriors of Valhalla briefly mentioned in Rifts Conversion Book 2: Pantheons of the Megaverse, dead people don't seem to go anywhere.

In Psyscape it mentions that they go "to the spirit world."

I'm tending to agree with Vidynn. Given a choice between one or the other, I would probably choose the Arcanum book. I'm not comfortable with that answer, really, because I prefer magic-light games. Magic is way too often used as an excuse for making something happen in a story or a game which can't otherwise be explained but someone just wants it to happen.

By the by, I should mention that I included a true ghost as a playable character class in one of the Court of Tarot articles. I think it's in the third article. This ghost is a soul fragment-entity, so I was able to side-step the issue of where dead souls go. The soul fragment concept is only a little piece of the soul which gets left behind, and that fragment itself doesn't know what happened to the rest of soul.

Never mind! Now that I've actually seen the issue, I know that the three Court of Tarot articles were spliced together into one fat article. The soul-fragment-ghost didn't make the cut.

Im sorry to hear that, a real shame.

I'm not complaining. I'm pleased with how the article came out. I even fired an e-mail off to Wayne stating as much. I just thought that I should amend what I wrote earlier about the soul fragments.

Another fair point, one's interperatation of what "Divinty" means can have a lot to say about if they could be included in BTS alot.

The current season of Supernatural has that going right now in fact, it seems that god and his angels are all out to get us as much and Satan and his demons . The main characters are in a sort of referee status between them.

I been waiting for 4 years for tome grotesque!

I hope ther will be a refocus on BtS,s books soon.

Never mind! Now that I've actually seen the issue, I know that the three Court of Tarot articles were spliced together into one fat article. The soul-fragment-ghost didn't make the cut.

I wouldn't mind seeing the 'uncut' version. I really like the Court of Tarot and am planning to add them to my BTS campaign.

what is so hard about BTS material?
Read Lovecraft
Watch X-Files
Play CoC
how about anything from the WoD?
Hellboy is right up BTS' alley
MiB is almost a players guide

anything covert, shadowy, world within worldly is prime material for BTS

I wouldn't mind seeing the 'uncut' version. I really like the Court of Tarot and am planning to add them to my BTS campaign.

I cut darn near all of it myself because it just wasn't mission critical stuff. Errata here Linkimus Prime.

I think I would like to see the major arcana as orders instead of individual people

How do you mean, Killwatch?

Btw, your list of inspiration is excellent. Unfortunately, a lot of it is dated. I'm working with a 20-year-old friend on writing some BtS materials. He just doesn't get the subtly of the setting. He thinks that hellhounds should be running around in broad daylight and people should catch them and train them as pets. Due to his age, he missed the X-Files phase we all went through in the 90's, he never saw a Hellboy comic, he never read Lovecraft, played CoC or WoD (which have sort of fallen out of favor as trendy games), and hasn't gotten around to seeing the Hellboy movies yet. I'll ask him if he saw the Men in Black movies.

then he needs to turn in his gamer card or get re-certified

as for the arcana like the Fools would be the initiates into the orders
the Magus would obviously be an order of magic users
The Hanged Man might be the ever patient and calm monks
The Emperors/Empresses might be a ruling class

something like I am a fifth ranked lord of Chariots, which could be professional stunt drivers

KillWatch wrote:what is so hard about BTS material?
Read Lovecraft
Watch X-Files
Play CoC
how about anything from the WoD?
Hellboy is right up BTS' alley
MiB is almost a players guide

anything covert, shadowy, world within worldly is prime material for BTS

there's more to BTS than the above mentioned items... if for nothing more than the execution of playing the game.

This is a game that relies on the mundane as the way of life (a.k.a. it could be taking place in our reality) and therefore you have to reel back the fantastical elements for this game to work. When I played Rifts I used to have such grand fantastical adventures that it could stager the imagination.

But in BTS I learned in a hurry that the most trival of monsters HAS to be enough to terrorize the people that the players are out to protect. The Supernatural in the BTS world are like ninja's. they live in the shadows and strike from them and return to them when done. Nor are they as plentiful as monsters in other games like rifts, so you have to becareful how you place them in the game.

Of course there's more than the supernatural. I've always agreed the most dangerous prey in BTS is usually the human beings. they can walk about freely and carry weaponry. Therefore you can have the cults, the chainsaw welding psycho's and what not. But then you can add twists to that and have frankenstein freaks, mutant anomolies, military experiments gone wrong and so on. But these all have to be used in the setting they were provided for.

One example was my group hunting down what they thought might be a werecreatures of some sort, but ended up being an escaped lab experiement gone bad who was more afraid of people that people should be of it. So it spent its time hiding in shadows and dark places, coming out only to rumage through garbage and so on.

The players ran into other supernatural things hiding in simialr places, the scientific org that lost the thing to begin with (which has nearly military grade weaponry at their disposal), cops checking in on the reports of the thing in their alleys and backyards, nosy reporters looking following the police channels, etc.

In the end the group felt for the creature, trapped it, tranq'd it, chained it and drove it up deep into the wilds of Canada and released it. this all happened under very covert, discreet cicumstances. if this thing was captured or killed by the police, it could potentially throw a wrench in the works of the game... at least for some time to come.

Most normal folks would become paranoid of such "monsters" existing, many would become gun toting fools with itchy trigger fingers, lots of wildlife and pets would be shot in a panic, people in dark alleys would probrably get hurt (better safe than sorry), and questions like "if this one thing exists... how many more do?" which would bring out hundreds of would be hunters out looking to carve a name for themselves out of some monsters hide. many of these hunters would be easy fodder for the true supernatural monsters as they are bound to invade on their lairs and hunting grounds while being ill prepped to fight them.

it sounds like I'm going over the top, but if you really sit and think about it, this is how a lot of people would react if their mundane little world is suddenly shattered by the "proven" existance of "monsters" in the world.

There are those who think that if sasquatch was discovered and proven as fact, the excitement would be over in a matter of months... the biology books would add a new branch to the primate family and lots of autoposies performed to catalogue them (basically scientificate them) and then its over.

But there is another train of thought that says people will go ape spit and panic about their reality being fractured (even a tiny of a fracture of finding big foot would be on their world) and most will hit the instinct to fear what they no longer understand and will be out to destroy it and others around them in the process.

Wow... I'm getting off my soap box now.

Oh, quick thoughts on Kill watches ideas...

Read Lovecraft- Oh yes, he's hard to read but his work is genius and was probrably a Huge inspiration for Kevin, Randy and Erick when they worte the book.

Watch X-Files- besides being the best tv show ever made, the materials and the way its presented is indeed a great inspiration to BTS

Play CoC- Not sure what this is unfortunately.

how about anything from the WoD? yes, WoD can (and does provide) inspiration in my world. I own several books (bought used at the local hobby store) and have sifted through them, but I'm not a fan of their rules as they make conversion attempts to Palladium hard to do. In the end I end rewritting most of the inspiration for my game to the point that Wod is no longer influening my adventure.

Hellboy is right up BTS' alley- I agree to a point. I love the Hellboy (the Comics and the movies and would say I love the movies more). the Hellboy universe has lots of inspiration to consider, but there is no place for creatures like hellboy and Claus in the BTS world. they are just too fantastical and supernatural to be considered for good characters. using them can reduce the "us vs. them" factor thats critical to the game.


MiB is almost a players guide- I agree, replace aliens with monsters and lower the tech to a more "modern" scale and you have the Lazlo Agency.