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On this point, the text of the rules seems to contradict itself.

Under the True Atlantean Race, it says "All True Atlanteans are taught how to use their tattoos."

However, under Tattoo Magic, it also says...

It costs double the PPE to activate a tattoo for those who are not full tattooed men. However, wizards, cyber-knights, and virtually any human, ogre, or elf can receive and use magic tattoos. However, these novice tattoo users are NOT limited to the use of Tattoos alone, and pay the price of needing twice the normal amount of PPE in order to activate them.

Does this extra PPE price apply to True Atlanteans who are not tattooed men and have up to six magic tattoos? The rules seem like that's the actual text of it. Should it? This is just badly worded.

If I had my choice, I would write this as follows.

All True Atlanteans are taught how to use their tattoos. They pay the normal PPE price for them. (Or, They pay double the PPE price for them, it really doesn't matter, as long as it's clearly stated)

It costs double the PPE to activate a tattoo for those who are untrained in their use. Wizards, Cyber-Knights, and virtually any human, ogre, or elf can receive and use magic tattoos. Novice tattoo users who have other forms of magical energy require twice the PPE to activate a magic tattoo. This includes Tattooed Men who decide to multiclass into spellcasting classes. (Ugh, but possible)

I say that atlanteans who aren't tattooed men or undead slayers etc pay double.

Okay. That's one for double. Keep in mind, as far as my personal preference goes, I really don't care, I'm just trying to sort this out, because this is "All are trained" vs. "Novice Tattoo Users."

Based on the wording - it is double. Only Tattoo'd Classes receive the benefit of not paying double.

We had this come up in game, much to our TA Wizard's dismay I put the threshold for the reduced PPE costs at when one becomes a tattooed man - ie more than 6 Tattoos, which also the line where the magic abilities get chopped off.

That must have been painful. Not nearly as painful as it would be for a TA Cyberknight, but painful.

Well, the rules nixing the mix of magic and tattoos and the double PPE cost for untrained in tattoos are both there to balnce it. Otherwise every PC would be running around with these magic tattoos. So a threshold at which you become a dedicated tattooed man and have the class perks (ie, no double cost tattoos) makes sense.

The Galactus Kid wrote:I say that atlanteans who aren't tattooed men or undead slayers etc pay double.

yup.

I'm not saying any of you are wrong, in fact I'm inclined to think you are right, but my first blush on this (and how I would run it) is that True Atlanteans (TA) have had Tattoos in their society for a LONG time, and they are trained from a young age on how to use them, much like a T-man would have to be trained. Given that, I would allow them to have them and not cost double, or at least not for the marks of heritage. These two are so ingrained in the TA psyche that not being able to use them effectively is just silly. And yes, I would say that even for a TA who is also a magic user. Given how hard it is to actually get them (for non undead slayers it should be no more than one every 3-5 levels or so), I wouldn't worry about them over powering a magic using class. Personally the only way you get a third tattoo to start for being a TA is if you are a non-magic user. Period. Its too much of a distraction for a magic user to start with more than the marks of heritage. Or if I do allow another, its something simple like the eye of knowledge.

But like I said, you guys are probably right strictly speaking by the rules.

I have stated in my house rules that all True Atlanteans can use their two Marks of Heritage for normal cost (otherwise, there is a good possibility they cant even activate the anti-vampire one), but any others cost double unless they become full Tattooed Men.

I didn't want to start a storm of flying poo, but it seems I have. Sorry everyone!

In principle, at least, I agree with MikeLAmroni, with the following restriction.

If you ever get more than six tattoos, you become a tattooed man. You do not gain any of the benefits of being a first level tattooed man until you obey the Rifts rules for multiclassing. Your previous class and all abilities from it freeze. You must then achieve fourth level in your new class (Which is Tattooed Man), to become a first level tattooed man. So you get to pay the normal PPE cost. It's just that you should choose your other four tattoos VERY carefully, unless you really want the colossal XP sink and misery of becoming a tattooed man.

The Galactus Kid wrote:I say that atlanteans who aren't tattooed men or undead slayers etc pay double.

As Browncoat Jayson says, True Atlanteans with only 2 tattoos (most of them) can't use the Protection from Vampire tat if it costs double. Just for what that's worth...

Oh, as an additional edit, if you are a cyberknight of 4th level or higher and are also a True Atlantean, you cannot have more than six tattoos. The living armor is grafted to your body and occupies that space.

Balabanto wrote:Oh, as an additional edit, if you are a cyberknight of 4th level or higher and are also a True Atlantean, you cannot have more than six tattoos. The living armor is grafted to your body and occupies that space.

Which space is that? The tattoos can go anywhere.

As for the original question, I go with True Atlanteans pay list cost, as do tattooed man OCCs. It's everyone else (note TAs are left from that list) who pays double.

Cyberarmor is grafted to your body at 4th level cyberknight. It has an AR of 16. So eighty percent of your body is already covered. At level 8, this becomes AR 17, and at level 12, AR 18. There really isn't much room, other than at your key joints, to acquire additional magic tattoos. I would actually argue that after level 8, a TA cyberknight couldn't even add any, as even though they could activate the tattoos by silent act of will, (Level 7), they would be partially covered except for the marks of Heritage.

Balabanto wrote:Cyberarmor is grafted to your body at 4th level cyberknight. It has an AR of 16. So eighty percent of your body is already covered. At level 8, this becomes AR 17, and at level 12, AR 18. There really isn't much room, other than at your key joints, to acquire additional magic tattoos. I would actually argue that after level 8, a TA cyberknight couldn't even add any, as even though they could activate the tattoos by silent act of will, (Level 7), they would be partially covered except for the marks of Heritage.

Arguable even then, with all the nooks that one may be tattooed at. But luckily for my players, I ignore the SoT and after CK write ups.

In answer to the OP, I'd say that Atlanteans can use their marks of heritage at normal cost. However they'd still pay double PPE for additional tats if not of the skilled class for such things. After all, you've had your whole life to play around with and practice using the marks of heritage, right?

Browncoat Jayson wrote:I have stated in my house rules that all True Atlanteans can use their two Marks of Heritage for normal cost (otherwise, there is a good possibility they cant even activate the anti-vampire one), but any others cost double unless they become full Tattooed Men.

A few ways to handle this.

1) Pay double even for heritage. In this case, they wouldn't be able to use them unless they get a few more tattoos (2 more). In this way, they are simply useless markings, perhaps a right of passage at 5 or 6. Most will probably end up with 6 tattoos by age 17. If they don't get any new tattoos, they can never activate the tattoos they have. This would make for a neat back story, a character who lost his family at a young age (before getting more tattoos), grows up never knowing that the two tattoos his family gave him are actually magical...

2) Pay double for all except the marks of heritage.

Personally, I think the rules fall in for #1...but I'd go rule 2 just because is it really that big of a deal?

farfairer wrote:

Balabanto wrote:Cyberarmor is grafted to your body at 4th level cyberknight. It has an AR of 16. So eighty percent of your body is already covered. At level 8, this becomes AR 17, and at level 12, AR 18. There really isn't much room, other than at your key joints, to acquire additional magic tattoos. I would actually argue that after level 8, a TA cyberknight couldn't even add any, as even though they could activate the tattoos by silent act of will, (Level 7), they would be partially covered except for the marks of Heritage.

I disagree considering the simple fact that the armor specifically does not encase your entire body. If 80% of your body is covered with cyber-armor, and you include the character's head, neck, hands, feet, crotch, and (most likely) buttocks as portions of the body that are NOT covered, then the character probably can't have more than 2 tattoos ever.

In fact if you go by the picture on page 65 of the Ultimate Edition book, the character is covered from wrist to neck with cyber-armor, so that would mean no use of tattoos that are not on the head, hands or feet.

Either the character can have tattoos or he can't. limiting it is completely artificial.

He can. The cyber knight armor says that the armor eventually becomes a living part of the cyber knight (lvl 4). Even though the armor is graphed to his skin, it doesn't replace it (since while loosing it may mean death, having it blown off (and surviving) doesn't mean he's standing there without skin). Since the armor is basically a part of the knight, he can touch it and activate it, regardless of how you view it. Before that, if you really wanna play it out, you could say that he can't get them before 4th or if he starts with them at the beginning of the game, he won't be able to use them before 4th...though, I don't see a need for either one. To me, this would be a player decision, not a GM.

Considering it says they can get it, they're armor becomes a living part of them and the tattoos are magic by nature...I see no reason to limit them from getting it.

Okay. Now, be that as it may, perhaps I should have phrased the question differently.

Is this rule a True Atlantean Rule (It says under True Atlantean that all True Atlanteans are Trained in the Use of the Tattoos) or is it a Tattoo Magic Rule?

Generally, I've learned that specific outweighs general, however, these two specific rules are in conflict, because it says that "Untrained Users" gain double the PPE cost and assumes that they're not "Tattooed Men."

So if "All Atlanteans are Trained in the Use of Their Tattoos", then that would seem to overcome the double PPE restriction. However, since the specific rule says everyone except Tattooed Men pays double, it assumes that those users are untrained.

Remind me never to cast the "Storm of Flying Poo" spell again when I have a question.

Balabanto wrote:Okay. Now, be that as it may, perhaps I should have phrased the question differently.

Is this rule a True Atlantean Rule (It says under True Atlantean that all True Atlanteans are Trained in the Use of the Tattoos) or is it a Tattoo Magic Rule?

Generally, I've learned that specific outweighs general, however, these two specific rules are in conflict, because it says that "Untrained Users" gain double the PPE cost and assumes that they're not "Tattooed Men."

So if "All Atlanteans are Trained in the Use of Their Tattoos", then that would seem to overcome the double PPE restriction. However, since the specific rule says everyone except Tattooed Men pays double, it assumes that those users are untrained.

Remind me never to cast the "Storm of Flying Poo" spell again when I have a question.

I would say since the non-t-man section does not mention True Atlanteans and the True Atlantean section specifically says they are trained, that True Atlanteans, regardless of OCC, can use their tattoos at cost.

Rules as written, it's probably that the TA has to pay double. Rules as I would play them, I would only make characters who got tattoos without training pay that price.

Just because this needs to be here.

Ludicrous Magic Spell

Storm of Flying Poo

Level: 10
PPE Cost: 100
Range: 100 feet/Level
Duration: 2 Melees/Level
Area of Effect: 25 Foot Radius/Level
Saving Throw: None

This spell creates a colossal cloud of whirling, stinky, unpleasant dung. The dung sticks to everything, and blinds everything in the radius, giving them -10 to strike, parry, and dodge. The Character's Speed is reduced to 1/3, and everyone in the cloud loses 3 melee attack actions per round. The cloud is opaque. Those inside the cloud can't see what goes on outside it. All attempts at Trust/Intimidate and similar persuasive skills are reduced by 75 percent until they clean off after getting out of the cloud! No perception rolls based on smell are possible. The cloud may be set aflame by a hot enough heat source, which doubles the radius, but reduces the penalties by half. Visibility in the giant cloud of dung is a whopping six feet! The type of dung is chosen by the caster at the time of casting, and may not be from a type of creature where the dung has additional side effects.

I understand why this rule was added with so many characters getting tattoos in the old days, but nothing like have magic tattoos you can't activate. I think True Atlanteans should only pay the normal amount accept for Atlantean magic users, then got lots of P.P.E. let them pay double after the extra bonus six P.P.E. per tattoo they get from having them. It says Cyber Knights can have up to 4 tattoos, yet adding 24 P.P.E. to their pool most still wouldn't be able to activate even some of the simple ones. A horse tattoo would cost 40 still would come in handy. In our old gaming group we all had horse tattoos and they were our main form of transportation. I think adding a extra rule that being on a Ley Line reduces the cost back to normal price would help make them worth having again. Some drawbacks are that Dog Boys can detect characters with high P.P.E. Pools over thirty and also makes Psi-Stalker see them as a possible meal.

runebeo wrote:I understand why this rule was added with so many characters getting tattoos in the old days, but nothing like have magic tattoos you can't activate. I think True Atlanteans should only pay the normal amount accept for Atlantean magic users, then got lots of P.P.E. let them pay double after the extra bonus six P.P.E. per tattoo they get from having them. It says Cyber Knights can have up to 4 tattoos, yet adding 24 P.P.E. to their pool most still wouldn't be able to activate even some of the simple ones. A horse tattoo would cost 40 still would come in handy. In our old gaming group we all had horse tattoos and they were our main form of transportation. I think adding a extra rule that being on a Ley Line reduces the cost back to normal price would help make them worth having again. Some drawbacks are that Dog Boys can detect characters with high P.P.E. Pools over thirty and also makes Psi-Stalker see them as a possible meal.

This does not mean, however, that a TA Cyberknight can have ten. They're still stuck with max Six. I don't think a TA cyberknight should be allowed to have "Special Bonus Tattoos."

Trained, schmained.

The point of the rule is that anybody who isn't a T-Man (or other class designed to use tattoos) has to pay more.
True Atlanteans might be trained to use their tattoos, but nowhere near the level that T-Men are.

Also, if you make an exception for Atlanteans, that opens up a can of worms.
What about Atlanteans who were raised outside their group?
What about humans raised among Atlanteans?
What about a human/elf that gets a tatoo, but gets tattoo-training from an Atlantean party member?
How much training is required?

Too many questions and too much potential crap for my liking.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Trained, schmained.

The point of the rule is that anybody who isn't a T-Man (or other class designed to use tattoos) has to pay more.
True Atlanteans might be trained to use their tattoos, but nowhere near the level that T-Men are.

Also, if you make an exception for Atlanteans, that opens up a can of worms.
What about Atlanteans who were raised outside their group?
What about humans raised among Atlanteans?
What about a human/elf that gets a tatoo, but gets tattoo-training from an Atlantean party member?
How much training is required?

Too many questions and too much potential crap for my liking.

What about Atlanteans who were raised outside their group? Double price.
What about humans raised among Atlanteans? List price.
What about a human/elf that gets a tatoo, but gets tattoo-training from an Atlantean party member? Double unless said tutor is an alchemist capable of bestowing tattoos.
How much training is required? More than a few minutes.

A TA that has the MoH pays normal cost to activate them, any other tats cost double.

Any variation (as KC brought up) is an RP issue and should be handled that way.

If your a TA that got your marks then got lost in the woods and raised by mutant sheep then you never got trained to use them so you pay double, if you ever even figure out how to use them.

If your a human or ogre(?) that was raised by TAs from birth, well for one why would they give you the marks in the first place you are not a TA, second if they for whatever reason did then you would have been taught to use them the same as every other 5 year old TA so it would be base cost to activate them.

Misfit KotLD wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Trained, schmained.

The point of the rule is that anybody who isn't a T-Man (or other class designed to use tattoos) has to pay more.
True Atlanteans might be trained to use their tattoos, but nowhere near the level that T-Men are.

Also, if you make an exception for Atlanteans, that opens up a can of worms.
What about Atlanteans who were raised outside their group?
What about humans raised among Atlanteans?
What about a human/elf that gets a tatoo, but gets tattoo-training from an Atlantean party member?
How much training is required?

Too many questions and too much potential crap for my liking.

What about Atlanteans who were raised outside their group? Double price.
What about humans raised among Atlanteans? List price.
What about a human/elf that gets a tatoo, but gets tattoo-training from an Atlantean party member? Double unless said tutor is an alchemist capable of bestowing tattoos.
How much training is required? More than a few minutes.

And now you've replaced one rule with 5. More, as more questions arise, like "Okay, more than a few minutes... what about hours? Days? Weeks? Years? How many? Do you learn it quicker if you're more intelligent?" etc. etc.

And the gain in actual gameplay is....?

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Misfit KotLD wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Trained, schmained.

The point of the rule is that anybody who isn't a T-Man (or other class designed to use tattoos) has to pay more.
True Atlanteans might be trained to use their tattoos, but nowhere near the level that T-Men are.

Also, if you make an exception for Atlanteans, that opens up a can of worms.
What about Atlanteans who were raised outside their group?
What about humans raised among Atlanteans?
What about a human/elf that gets a tatoo, but gets tattoo-training from an Atlantean party member?
How much training is required?

Too many questions and too much potential crap for my liking.

What about Atlanteans who were raised outside their group? Double price.
What about humans raised among Atlanteans? List price.
What about a human/elf that gets a tatoo, but gets tattoo-training from an Atlantean party member? Double unless said tutor is an alchemist capable of bestowing tattoos.
How much training is required? More than a few minutes.

And now you've replaced one rule with 5. More, as more questions arise, like "Okay, more than a few minutes... what about hours? Days? Weeks? Years? How many? Do you learn it quicker if you're more intelligent?" etc. etc.

And the gain in actual gameplay is....?

Clarity of rule, something often lacking in this system we love so much.

Misfit KotLD wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:And now you've replaced one rule with 5. More, as more questions arise, like "Okay, more than a few minutes... what about hours? Days? Weeks? Years? How many? Do you learn it quicker if you're more intelligent?" etc. etc.

And the gain in actual gameplay is....?

Clarity of rule, something often lacking in this system we love so much.

Hm.
I find one rule to be clearer.

But whatever floats our individual boats, I guess.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Misfit KotLD wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:And now you've replaced one rule with 5. More, as more questions arise, like "Okay, more than a few minutes... what about hours? Days? Weeks? Years? How many? Do you learn it quicker if you're more intelligent?" etc. etc.

And the gain in actual gameplay is....?

Clarity of rule, something often lacking in this system we love so much.

Hm.
I find one rule to be clearer.

But whatever floats our individual boats, I guess.

Fair enough, but if they were so clear, the OP wouldn't have asked.

Misfit KotLD wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Misfit KotLD wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:And now you've replaced one rule with 5. More, as more questions arise, like "Okay, more than a few minutes... what about hours? Days? Weeks? Years? How many? Do you learn it quicker if you're more intelligent?" etc. etc.

And the gain in actual gameplay is....?

Clarity of rule, something often lacking in this system we love so much.

Hm.
I find one rule to be clearer.

But whatever floats our individual boats, I guess.

Fair enough, but if they were so clear, the OP wouldn't have asked.

Nah.
People ask questions with clear answers all the time around here.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Misfit KotLD wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Misfit KotLD wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:And now you've replaced one rule with 5. More, as more questions arise, like "Okay, more than a few minutes... what about hours? Days? Weeks? Years? How many? Do you learn it quicker if you're more intelligent?" etc. etc.

And the gain in actual gameplay is....?

Clarity of rule, something often lacking in this system we love so much.

Hm.
I find one rule to be clearer.

But whatever floats our individual boats, I guess.

Fair enough, but if they were so clear, the OP wouldn't have asked.

Nah.
People ask questions with clear answers all the time around here.

That's generally Sound Off though.

I think that the Mark of Heritage should be considered a bit different than your average magic tattoo.

It doesn't make sense to give TA's the MoH as a standard feature, and then force them to be hamstrung in their ability to use them.

I'd vote that the MoH can be used at cost because of the standardize nature among TA's. However any other tattoos would fall under the canon rules.

So if you have a TA with 2 additional tattoos, those cost double, while the MoH are at cost...

Shadyslug wrote:I think that the Mark of Heritage should be considered a bit different than your average magic tattoo.

It doesn't make sense to give TA's the MoH as a standard feature, and then force them to be hamstrung in their ability to use them.

I'd vote that the MoH can be used at cost because of the standardize nature among TA's. However any other tattoos would fall under the canon rules.

So if you have a TA with 2 additional tattoos, those cost double, while the MoH are at cost...

There's no compromise here. Pick your side and stay on it.

Misfit KotLD wrote:There's no compromise here. Pick your side and stay on it.

but...but...but...this is a side, after all aren't there three sides to every argument? your side, their side, and my side? Okay so a Vorlon I heard once or three times once said it differently, but it still works!

Nah, I'm still in the all True Atlanteans are trained in tattoos. As for the question what about humans raised among TAs, the average true atlantean has a greater innate/instinctive understanding of magic than the average human EVER will, even if they live among them. The human lifespan is too short. TAs have sensitivity for magic literally in their genetic makeup. They are all "superhuman" because of their super science/magic disciplines from so long ago. To use a crude (and frankly offensive, although its not meant that way, so please forgive me ahead of time) analogy, comparing a rifts human's understanding of magic, even a man of magic, to a TA is like comparing a chimpanzee's understanding of art to a human's. The chimp knows what it likes, and can do some pretty amazing things, especially when they work at it, and you have the hyper talented one, but that's still nothing compared to the average human artist's understanding of art.

Then why not just reduce the MoH in half, this would cover what folks are upset about.

I really think the RAW is to have people pay double for the MoH if they only have 2 Tattoo's. This means that yes, they need to be near a ley line, nexus, pyramid, or a fresh battlefield to pick up PPE.

Most Atlanteans probably never even use the MoH in their lives, as most probably don't adventure. But it is your game, and as a GM need to rule on it individually.

Godhand wrote:I dislike that for a couple of reasons.

1) Because the text states TAs know "...how to use 'The Marks of Heritage' and all types of magic tattoos"

2) Because Atlantean Nomads who generally start with 4~5 tattoos would have a truly miniscule selection of available tattoos that they could actually make use of, even with the added PPE from the other Tattoos.


Chiang Ku are not full tattooed men, do they pay double?

By the letter of the ruling, they pay double. And there is nothing in the Chiang Ku entry to say otherwise.

That is exactly how I see it. Dragons would pay double. But this is my problem with Dragons to begin with - especially as PC's. They tend to live long lives, have multiple OCC's, and generally have some sort of issue like this going on.

The question is - other than a random TA who is an adventurer, what kind of PPE environment is the normal TA at? Is it located on a Nexus, Pyramid, or Ley Line?

My simple rule: If the character was trained to use tattoos (the equivalent of a skill selection's worth of training), they don't pay double.

True Atlanteans who are raised as True Atlanteans and all T-men have this price included.

Others have to pay 1 skill selection in order to get the lesser cost, even if they've had 6+ tattoos added without their permission.

Here's the thing:
The "base" cost of Tattoo activation is the base cost for Tattooed Men.

If things had been phrases slightly differently, if the "base" had been written for non-tattooed men, and T-Men simply got to activate the tattoos at 1/2 price, would you guys be arguing that Atlanteans and Chiang-Ku should get the same discount?

I'd still consider True Atlanteans and Chiang-Ku tattooed men for purposes of PPE cost to activate magic tattoos.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Here's the thing:
The "base" cost of Tattoo activation is the base cost for Tattooed Men.

If things had been phrases slightly differently, if the "base" had been written for non-tattooed men, and T-Men simply got to activate the tattoos at 1/2 price, would you guys be arguing that Atlanteans and Chiang-Ku should get the same discount?

No, but if that had been done, it wouldn't have come up at all. Because they would have the exception in for tattooed men, and everyone else would pay normal - which would have been clearer than the mud we have right now.

Mark Hall wrote:My simple rule: If the character was trained to use tattoos (the equivalent of a skill selection's worth of training), they don't pay double.
True Atlanteans who are raised as True Atlanteans and all T-men have this price included.
Others have to pay 1 skill selection in order to get the lesser cost, even if they've had 6+ tattoos added without their permission.

That's pretty fair, and clear - I like it.

MikelAmroni wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Here's the thing:
The "base" cost of Tattoo activation is the base cost for Tattooed Men.

If things had been phrases slightly differently, if the "base" had been written for non-tattooed men, and T-Men simply got to activate the tattoos at 1/2 price, would you guys be arguing that Atlanteans and Chiang-Ku should get the same discount?

No, but if that had been done, it wouldn't have come up at all. Because they would have the exception in for tattooed men, and everyone else would pay normal - which would have been clearer than the mud we have right now.

But that IS what was done, in effect.
The description of magic Tattoos blends right into the description of the various T-Men OCCs.
The PPE costs listed are specifically for Tattooed Men.
All the text describing Tattoo activation refers to T-Men activating them, because that's who the entire section assumes will be using them.

The only time the book assumes that anybody other than a T-Man will be using a tattoo is when it says, "It costs double the PPE to activate a tattoo for those who are not full Tattooed Men."

Killer Cyborg wrote:Here's the thing:
The "base" cost of Tattoo activation is the base cost for Tattooed Men.

If things had been phrases slightly differently, if the "base" had been written for non-tattooed men, and T-Men simply got to activate the tattoos at 1/2 price, would you guys be arguing that Atlanteans and Chiang-Ku should get the same discount?

I honestly do not know. However, if it were the current prices-as-listed were the base, and TM got a discount off that, I probably would not. The prices as listed are reasonable for the powers, and not prohibitive to use.

Killer Cyborg wrote:But that IS what was done, in effect.
The description of magic Tattoos blends right into the description of the various T-Men OCCs.
The PPE costs listed are specifically for Tattooed Men.
All the text describing Tattoo activation refers to T-Men activating them, because that's who the entire section assumes will be using them.

The only time the book assumes that anybody other than a T-Man will be using a tattoo is when it says, "It costs double the PPE to activate a tattoo for those who are not full Tattooed Men."

Ok, here's what the book says, verbatim, on True Atlanteans.

Rifts World Book 2: Atlantis, Page 16 wrote:1. Magic tattoos denote heritage. All True Atlanteans bear the "Marks of Heritage," a pair of magic tattoos. The marks are always the same, a tattoo of a heart impaled by a wooden stake (no blood) on the right wrist for protection from vampires and a flaming sword tattoo to create a magic M.D.C. weapon on the left wrist. The tattoo is placed on an Atlantean child at age five or six. A particular clan's crest may be part of the sword's hilt. These "Marks of Heritage" are magic tattoos and can be activated at will; the standard tattoo rules apply.
2. Increased S.D.C. from magic tattoos. An Atlantean may have as many as four additional tattoos (that's six total), never more. The only exception is the Undead Slayer who is a full tattooed man dedicated to the destruction of vampires and evil. Each tattoo provides the Atlantean an additional 10 physical S.D.C. points. Note: One to six tattoos do not change the physical structure of an ordinary human into a mega-damage being like the Undead Slayer. All Atlanteans are taught how to use their tattoos.

Here is the offending paragraph under Activation of Tattoos.

World Book 2: Atlantis, Page 85 wrote:It costs double the P.P.E. to activate a tattoo for those who are not full Tattooed Men. A T-Man will have a dozen or more 'toos. However, wizards, cyber-knights, and virtually any human, ogre or elf can receive and use magic tattoos. However, these novice tattoo users are NOT limited to the use of tattoos alone and pay the penalty of needing to expend twice the usual amount of P.P.E. in order to activate them.

Emphasis is all mine.

True Atlanteans are a very conspicuous missing race in that list. The standard rules for Tattoos are written from the perspective of a T-man, I think we will all agree on that. There are only five races that can get tattoos, 3 of which are mentioned specifically in the double activation cost paragraph. The other 2, Chiang-ku and True Atlanteans, are omitted. Chiang Ku made them, so I think its pretty ludicrous to make them have to pay double, and True Atlanteans are specifically mentioned as having training, which would be not unlike what a full t-man would get (at least that's my thought), especially since they don't have to worry about training for as many at a time.

But short of an official ruling from Palladium, this is going to be another of those "you do in your campaign, and I'll do in mine" type thing. C'est la vie!

MikelAmroni wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:But that IS what was done, in effect.
The description of magic Tattoos blends right into the description of the various T-Men OCCs.
The PPE costs listed are specifically for Tattooed Men.
All the text describing Tattoo activation refers to T-Men activating them, because that's who the entire section assumes will be using them.

The only time the book assumes that anybody other than a T-Man will be using a tattoo is when it says, "It costs double the PPE to activate a tattoo for those who are not full Tattooed Men."

Ok, here's what the book says, verbatim, on True Atlanteans.

Rifts World Book 2: Atlantis, Page 16 wrote:1. Magic tattoos denote heritage. All True Atlanteans bear the "Marks of Heritage," a pair of magic tattoos. The marks are always the same, a tattoo of a heart impaled by a wooden stake (no blood) on the right wrist for protection from vampires and a flaming sword tattoo to create a magic M.D.C. weapon on the left wrist. The tattoo is placed on an Atlantean child at age five or six. A particular clan's crest may be part of the sword's hilt. These "Marks of Heritage" are magic tattoos and can be activated at will; the standard tattoo rules apply.
2. Increased S.D.C. from magic tattoos. An Atlantean may have as many as four additional tattoos (that's six total), never more. The only exception is the Undead Slayer who is a full tattooed man dedicated to the destruction of vampires and evil. Each tattoo provides the Atlantean an additional 10 physical S.D.C. points. Note: One to six tattoos do not change the physical structure of an ordinary human into a mega-damage being like the Undead Slayer. All Atlanteans are taught how to use their tattoos.

"The standard tattoo rules" are that only full T-Men get to activate for base price.
"Atlanteans are taught how to use their tattoos" just means (as far as I can see) "they know how to activate their tattoos."

Here is the offending paragraph under Activation of Tattoos.

World Book 2: Atlantis, Page 85 wrote:It costs double the P.P.E. to activate a tattoo for those who are not full Tattooed Men. A T-Man will have a dozen or more 'toos. However, wizards, cyber-knights, and virtually any human, ogre or elf can receive and use magic tattoos. However, these novice tattoo users are NOT limited to the use of tattoos alone and pay the penalty of needing to expend twice the usual amount of P.P.E. in order to activate them.

Emphasis is all mine.

True Atlanteans are a very conspicuous missing race in that list.

Agreed; True Atlanteans are not on the list, and the word "novice" could have the connotation of somebody new to the tattoos.
BUT there's nothing about a CK, wizard or anything else eventually learning to use their tattoos for the T-Man's cost. No matter how long they have them.
Which indicates to me that a "novice" is just anybody who isn't a T-Man.
A mage or other person might use tattoos here or there, but using tattoos is the main thing that a T-Man ever does.
It's like the difference between somebody who owns a motorcycle and somebody who is a "biker."

The standard rules for Tattoos are written from the perspective of a T-man, I think we will all agree on that. There are only five races that can get tattoos, 3 of which are mentioned specifically in the double activation cost paragraph. The other 2, Chiang-ku and True Atlanteans, are omitted. Chiang Ku made them, so I think its pretty ludicrous to make them have to pay double, and True Atlanteans are specifically mentioned as having training, which would be not unlike what a full t-man would get (at least that's my thought), especially since they don't have to worry about training for as many at a time.

I kind of like the idea that Chiang Ku are makers of tattoos, not necessarily the best users of them.
IIRC, there aren't any Tattooed Dragon OCCs; even the tattoo masters don't have as many as a T-Man.

But short of an official ruling from Palladium, this is going to be another of those "you do in your campaign, and I'll do in mine" type thing. C'est la vie!

Agreed.
Hell, I might even be wrong as to the writers' intentions.
But right there in black and white, it says that only T-Men pay the listed price.
So going strictly by the book, that's how it plays.
(Not that anybody ever really plays strictly by the book all the time.)

True atlanteans do not pay twice for activating tattoos. If theat were true no true atlantean could activate ther tattoos, they dont ahve enough ppe.

base 10
6 for each tattoo for a total of 22

Flaming sword costs 10 X2 for activation 20 Possible
Heart pierced by wooden steak 15 X2 for activation 30, not possible for the average atlantean to use this tattoo. I think this is compelling evidence to conclude the average atlantean is not a novice tattoo user, given they "learn to use their tattoos at a young age".


No X2 PPE cost for atlanteans to use theri tattoos.

Greyaxe wrote:True atlanteans do not pay twice for activating tattoos. If theat were true no true atlantean could activate ther tattoos, they dont ahve enough ppe.

base 10
6 for each tattoo for a total of 22

Flaming sword costs 10 X2 for activation 20 Possible
Heart pierced by wooden steak 15 X2 for activation 30, not possible for the average atlantean to use this tattoo. I think this is compelling evidence to conclude the average atlantean is not a novice tattoo user, given they "learn to use their tattoos at a young age".


No X2 PPE cost for atlanteans to use theri tattoos.

Interestingly, a child would probably be able to use it, which has around 6d6 PPE

Greyaxe wrote:True atlanteans do not pay twice for activating tattoos. If theat were true no true atlantean could activate ther tattoos, they dont ahve enough ppe.
base 10
6 for each tattoo for a total of 22
Flaming sword costs 10 X2 for activation 20 Possible
Heart pierced by wooden steak 15 X2 for activation 30, not possible for the average atlantean to use this tattoo. I think this is compelling evidence to conclude the average atlantean is not a novice tattoo user, given they "learn to use their tattoos at a young age".
No X2 PPE cost for atlanteans to use theri tattoos.

And you've pretty much hit on the main reason why those of us who are going for Rules as Intended (RAI) are saying that the Rules as Written(RAW) are incomplete. But again, like KC and I agreed above, short of a clarification from Palaldium, this is just going to be my opinin vs your opinion. Great when we agree, but problematic when we disagree, as we can both point to reasons why the other is wrong. Personally I will always rule that True Atlanteans are trained in Tattoos, and therefore only pay normal prices. KC will run it RAW (- from the looks of it, anyway. I know you're arguing for RAW, I don't remember if you said that's how you actually run it), where they pay double.