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Killer Cyborg wrote:The only other issue that I have with the book was simply that the SteelTree items ability to inflict mega-damage isn't addressed. It's not stated to be magic, but it's not stated to NOT be magic. It just inflicts MD for no apparent reason. I don't really like that.

&

Gryphon wrote:But anyhow, I always wondered by what "right" (please do forgive the phrasing there, if you would) Kisentite weapons dealt MDC also. If the Nuhr were using their special sort of "not actually rune magic honest" skills on them, then maybe, but mainly its just allowed to do MDC in anyone's hands because it's "an ultra-dense and virtually indestructible meta from another dimension".

Perhaps these substances are effected like non-magic MDC materials (and attacks) are when traveling to SDC universes (and become SDC), only in reverse.

If you read about Kisentite in its original source (I want to say it was Aliens Unlimited?), its described as perfect for bladed weapons because its edge never dulls.

As for the Steel Tree weapons, its very likely the method used to make them. Remember, its not as easy as breaking off a branch and using it as a club. They are specially made by a closely guarded secret process. Its probably some sort of eco-magic ritual. However, its never explained (left in the hands of the Game Master). What we know is they do, and for me that's enough. Then agian, since I am not the kind to ***** about the faulty science behind the lightsaber or faster than light travel, I'm pretty easy to please.

Also, for anything like that not explicitly covered there's always the Conversion Book 1 blanket explanation; the potent magical energies of Rifts Earth empowers it and makes it M.D.C./Inflict M.D.C.

That 'change in physics' is also the explanation in the old Rule Book as to why SUPERNATURAL creatures are MDC, it is also why so many (basically all, originally) have some type of 'weakness' to a normally mundane SDC item/attack.

Eashamahel wrote:That 'change in physics' is also the explanation in the old Rule Book as to why SUPERNATURAL creatures are MDC, it is also why so many (basically all, originally) have some type of 'weakness' to a normally mundane SDC item/attack.

The bodies of living creatures are extremely sensitive to the physical laws that govern the universe. If any of them changed at all, then it's a good bet that there would be some negative biological consequence sufficient to wipe out all or most pre-existing life forms from before the change.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Eashamahel wrote:That 'change in physics' is also the explanation in the old Rule Book as to why SUPERNATURAL creatures are MDC, it is also why so many (basically all, originally) have some type of 'weakness' to a normally mundane SDC item/attack.

The bodies of living creatures are extremely sensitive to the physical laws that govern the universe. If any of them changed at all, then it's a good bet that there would be some negative biological consequence sufficient to wipe out all or most pre-existing life forms from before the change.

--flatline

I dunno.
Organisms designed for gravity can survive for extended periods in the non-gravity environment of space, and that's a pretty significant change.
Beyond that, I don't have a source for how well organisms would adapt to changes in the laws of physics.

Although in fictional settings where such a thing has occurred, such as Empire of the East, usually any living organisms are effectively translated into this new environment.

The point was that most Supernatural elements were intended to become MDC creatures through either some type of disparity in physical law, or because of the amount of magic energy in the PPE rich environment of Rifts.

There were no established MDC creatures that did not follow one of these two reasons, with the exception of the extremely weak ones, like the original dino's. Even comparatively powerful D-Bee creatures, like Giants, and Splugorth Slavers, were still SDC/HP, though they might have a ton of it, and only, again, mystically powerful members of their type, enhanced Kydians, Titans, ect. became MDC.

Stuff just doing and being MDC with no or limited reasoning WAS a strange and new concept, but as soon as Dinosaurs were established to have more MD than Supernatural creatures for no apparant reason, all bets were off, and now I think we're so far along that things just being and doing MD is pretty acceptable. D-Bees being MDC creatures? Are they magical? Supernatural? High natural PPE? Nope. Their structures are just equal to modern day tanks, just because. It kind of ruins the rarity concept of MD, and indeed, something NOT being MDC is the exception, not the norm now I think.

Eashamahel wrote:As soon as Dinosaurs were established to have more MD than Supernatural creatures for no apparent reason

As an interesting little side note, there is "something" special about Dinosaurs, its referenced in World Book Lemuria. The Lemurians are mentioned as trying to unlock what it is in their Code of Life that allows them to become M.D.C. on mega-damage worlds. So, the mystery ("reason") is apparently a design ascetic and part of the setting. Just thought you might find that interesting, I sure did.

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Eashamahel wrote:As soon as Dinosaurs were established to have more MD than Supernatural creatures for no apparent reason

As an interesting little side note, there is "something" special about Dinosaurs, its referenced in World Book Lemuria. The Lemurians are mentioned as trying to unlock what it is in their Code of Life that allows them to become M.D.C. on mega-damage worlds. So, the mystery ("reason") is apparently a design ascetic and part of the setting. Just thought you might find that interesting, I sure did.

Hm.
That does sound interesting.

Indeed, but although interesting, you would have to have some pretty solid evidence to make me believe that dinosaurs being super-tough was some kind of long-term plan by the folks at PB, and not just the fact that everything is MDC (now) all the time, including random creatures. Russia has MDC horses because it has Cossacks, Canada MDC bears because, well, Canada, ect, ect.

I do like attempts to go back and make things make sense, or later 'reveals', but they are what they are.

Eashamahel wrote:Indeed, but although interesting, you would have to have some pretty solid evidence to make me believe that dinosaurs being super-tough was some kind of long-term plan by the folks at PB, and not just the fact that everything is MDC (now) all the time, including random creatures. Russia has MDC horses because it has Cossacks, Canada MDC bears because, well, Canada, ect, ect.

I do like attempts to go back and make things make sense, or later 'reveals', but they are what they are.

Given how much belief can affect things and generate magical effects in Palladium maybe it's just that enough belief existed to make certain animals like dinosaurs MDC on Rifts Earth.

Nightmask wrote:

Eashamahel wrote:Indeed, but although interesting, you would have to have some pretty solid evidence to make me believe that dinosaurs being super-tough was some kind of long-term plan by the folks at PB, and not just the fact that everything is MDC (now) all the time, including random creatures. Russia has MDC horses because it has Cossacks, Canada MDC bears because, well, Canada, ect, ect.

I do like attempts to go back and make things make sense, or later 'reveals', but they are what they are.

Given how much belief can affect things and generate magical effects in Palladium maybe it's just that enough belief existed to make certain animals like dinosaurs MDC on Rifts Earth.

I don't believe that.

If this is Mage I can see that being the case, but when did that come to play in Rifts?


Daniel Stoker

Daniel Stoker wrote:If this is Mage I can see that being the case, but when did that come to play in Rifts?


Daniel Stoker

Its part of "How Magic Works" and appears in the following sources: Rifts: Ultimate Edition, Rifts: Book of Magic, Palladium Fantasy: Mysteries of Magic, Rifts Conversion Book 2: Pantheons of the Megaverse, and Palladium Fantasy: Dragons & Gods.

That's belief in magic to get your spells to work, not belief making things happen.


Daniel Stoker

Hehe, if belief = reality in all of Rifts, I think the couple million inhabitants of the CS would be able to force some alignment change on those 'evil' mages they all 'know' about. Then again, maybe THAT'S why Tolkeen's defenders went all Sorcerors Revenge...

Eashamahel wrote:Hehe, if belief = reality in all of Rifts, I think the couple million inhabitants of the CS would be able to force some alignment change on those 'evil' mages they all 'know' about. Then again, maybe THAT'S why Tolkeen's defenders went all Sorcerors Revenge...

Belief isn't reality, its just a major driving force behind magic, and magic influences/shapes reality (especially on magic rich worlds like Rifts Earth).

Daniel Stoker wrote:That's belief in magic to get your spells to work, not belief making things happen.

Actually, the existence of Gods is entirely tied to their followers belief/worship, which translates as P.P.E. (Dragons & Gods). So, ALL belief has magical influence, even if you do not immediately see it.

However, just to clarify a little further. If "magic" is the reason that some things become M.D.C. and belief can empower magic, than it stands to reason that belief might be responsible for why some things become M.D.C. (because they've got more magical potency behind them). Exactly the same way as it works for gods, only to a much lesser (but still significant) degree.

Akashic Soldier wrote:Actually, the existence of Gods is entirely tied to their followers belief/worship, which translates as P.P.E. (Dragons & Gods). So, ALL belief has magical influence, even if you do not immediately see it.

That's a specific account on the effect on gods and their power and power levels, not belief affects things and generates magical effects.

However, just to clarify a little further. If "magic" is the reason that some things become M.D.C. and belief can empower magic, than it stands to reason that belief might be responsible for why some things become M.D.C. (because they've got more magical potency behind them). Exactly the same way as it works for gods, only to a much lesser (but still significant) degree.

I don't remember where any of it says that belief empowers the magic, just where it makes it so your spells will work. More of believe in yourself or you'll fail then anything else.


Daniel Stoker

Johnnycat93 wrote:Take the Psi-Nullifier (or maybe the Nega Psychic? I always get them confused). There belief that magic doesn't exist is so strong that magic simply doesn't work around them.

Yup. Glad at least someone was paying attention and not just trying to win an argument.

It all comes down to the fact that Palladium's magic system and Mage the Awakenings magic system are both based off the same esoteric philosophies and new age religions. They're obviously not identical, but since they both used the same thing as inspiration, there are parallels. Belief is power and the ability to wield/shape/control magic is considered "enlightenment", rather than some concept of spiritual oneness as is the common modern interpretation of the same word.

The more you know.

Johnnycat93 wrote:Take the Psi-Nullifier (or maybe the Nega Psychic? I always get them confused). There belief that magic doesn't exist is so strong that magic simply doesn't work around them.

No... their belief that magic doesn't exist (or, in the case of Rifts, that they're tougher than magic), focuses their existing psychic powers in a certain way.
As with magic, belief is a necessary criterion, but not a root cause.

Rifts Worldbook 12: Psyscape wrote:In the days before the Coming of the Rifts, a Nega-Psychic was an individual who refused to believe in magic, E.S.P., and the paranormal. Ironically, these individuals were themselves psychic, and their "anti-paranormal" convictions fueled their psionic potential to make them semi-impervious to psychic powers, magic and the supernatural. In many ways, the Nega-Psychic is another manifestation of mind-over-matter: "I don't believe, therefore it does not exist, and I cannot be hurt by something that is not real."

Rifts Worldbook 12: Psyscape wrote:Of course on Rifts Earth, it is virtually impossible to honestly believe that supernatural beings, demons, dragons, magic, and psychic abilities are not real; they are everywhere and known to be extremely "real." Consequently, the Nega-Psychic of Rifts Earth has effectively adapted to this magic and supernatural rich environment. The Nega-Psychic accepts that such things "are" real, but he is still a skeptic of sorts, and is extremely strong willed. In this case, he refuses to accept that such forces can control, dominate or destroy him.

Thus, implying that it is still his will and belief that such forces cannot afflict him that fuel, power, and are (in-conjunction with his psychic potential) the source his abilities. You can decide whether or not magic can be shaped or influenced by belief, but I think that its made perfectly clear that it can and does.

Johnnycat93 wrote:However, this ignores several key factors such as Demons in Chaos Earth being MDC before anyone even really knew about them.

Not necessarily. Its very likely that as "Demons" these beings are magic enough, and have such a strong connection to magic/supernatural forces, that they are automatically M.D.C.

Besides, everyone knows about demons. Maybe not specific types, but everyone knows demons are frieghtful and powerful monsters, the same way everyone knows dinosaurs are tough as nails.

No, that's his disbelief focusing his psychic powers, he refuses to accept them being able to effect them and as such he's channeled his PPE into developing psychic powers that allow him to negate magic. But his belief doesn't alter reality and once he's out of ISP he can disbelieve to his hearts content and it's not gonna do a lick of good.


Daniel Stoker

Daniel Stoker wrote:No, that's his disbelief focusing his psychic powers, he refuses to accept them being able to effect them and as such he's channeled his PPE into developing psychic powers that allow him to negate magic. But his belief doesn't alter reality and once he's out of ISP he can disbelieve to his hearts content and it's not gonna do a lick of good.


Daniel Stoker

For a starter, he uses P.P.E. to suppress magic NOT I.S.P. (Think about the implications of that alone before replying).
Next, my entire argument is that belief fuels magic, which I have provided book quotes for now. That should be enough. If you want to continue to deny it and argue in circles just to do it, than you may do so. However, I'll have no part in it.

Sorry, been a while and I always mix up the Psi-Nullifer and Nega-psychic, but that doesn't matter as it's not their disbelief that allows them to actually negate magic, it channels their PPE which once that's gone leaves them unable to effect diddly.

And belief allows you to cast, where did you show quotes saying that belief actually fuels magic not that it makes it so your spells will work. More of believe in yourself or you'll fail then anything else?

[edit]And looking over RUE page 185 where it talks about Belief and Conviction I don't see anything that would support this idea that belief changes the world, but is a limit on what you must think so you can 'capture, hold and shape' the energy, but nothing about shaping the actual world with that belief.


Daniel Stoker

Daniel Stoker wrote:Sorry, been a while and I always mix up the Psi-Nullifer and Nega-psychic, but that doesn't matter as it's not their disbelief that allows them to actually negate magic, it channels their PPE which once that's gone leaves them unable to effect diddly.

Its okay. Reread what I took the time to write out of the book for you about the nega-psychic on the last page. If that isn't enough, than go read up on P.P.E. in the Megaverse in Mysteries of Magic. It is an external force that flows through the universe. Practitioners of Magic can govern how this energy is used, shape it, and change it through belief and ancient words of power to change events. Including alter reality itself. They can create matter out of thin air, they can transport people through time and space, and do a multitude of other things, all through the manipulation of P.P.E. by exerting their will over the megaverse. That is essentially what magic is. The Nega-Psychic needs to use P.P.E. to negate magic, because I.S.P. represents something very different to P.P.E.

Yes, without P.P.E. the character CANNOT deny the changes made to reality by other practitioners of magic, because their will has been conquered, and they are drained. Thus, without the ability to manipulate "potential psychic energy", he is stuck having to accept the same laws of reality as any other normal person. It isn't like in White Wolf's Mage the Awakening, where the popular belief of the masses suppresses magic. That isn't the concept. Heck, if you are familiar with the material, than you will know that the only reason that magic is like that in their world and is not free to use openly is because of an ancient magical disaster.

However, again, if we go to the SOURCE, we can see (and its mentioned in a few places), that in the Megaverse, belief and magic are intrinsically tied to one another. Belief fuels psychic potential, it can create Gods, change them, suppress magic, or even allow people to master magic and become living batteries of potential psychic energy. Without belief, you can do none of these things. Moreover, since magic is ever-present (though at weaker levels off ley lines), than it is safe to say that everyone's beliefs no matter how minor, have an ability to impact the flow of magic or empower certain beings. Again, this is evident in the power Vampire Intelligences and minor Gods recieve in the form of P.P.E. from mundane (ordinary) human worshipers.

Daniel Stoker wrote:And belief allows you to cast, where did you show quotes saying that belief actually fuels magic not that it makes it so your spells will work. More of believe in yourself or you'll fail then anything else?

It does not specifically say. However, its safe to assume it can be belief in anything. However, as we see with most men of magic, it is very likley a belief in esoteric concepts and the rules of magic that have been passed down through generations of wizards, or (in the case of the mystic and other natural casters), an innate understanding of megaversal concepts lesser minds cannot begin to fathom.. or "enlightenment" as it is sometimes called.

It is not enough to make the hand gestures and speak the spell words, any chump can do that, you have to be able to master the esoterica and shape the ebb and flow of cosmic forces through your will (belief) too.

Akashic Soldier wrote:Its okay. Reread what I took the time to write out of the book for you about the nega-psychic on the last page. If that isn't enough, than go read up on P.P.E. in the Megaverse in Mysteries of Magic. It is an external force that flows through the universe. Practitioners of Magic can govern how this energy is used, shape it, and change it through belief and ancient words of power to change events. Including alter reality itself. They can create matter out of thin air, they can transport people through time and space, and do a multitude of other things, all through the manipulation of P.P.E. by exerting their will over the megaverse. That is essentially what magic is. The Nega-Psychic needs to use P.P.E. to negate magic, because I.S.P. represents something very different to P.P.E.

I have re-read it, but it still doesn't say it's the belief that changes the universe. It's what let's you channel your PPE, but that doesn't mean that it makes dinosaurs into MDC or changes lead to gold. To do that you need the PPE. Again, once the nega-psychic's PPE is gone they can't change a thing no matter how much they still disbelieve it. The mage.. he can't make that fire ball no matter how much he believes it without the PPE. But the belief allows both of them to channel their PPE and 'shape it' as stated in RUE on page 185.

Yes, without P.P.E. the character CANNOT deny the changes made to reality by other practitioners of magic, because their will has been conquered, and they are drained. Thus, without the ability to manipulate "potential psychic energy", he is stuck having to accept the same laws of reality as any other normal person. It isn't like in White Wolf's Mage the Awakening, where the popular belief of the masses suppresses magic. That isn't the concept. Heck, if you are familiar with the material, than you will know that the only reason that magic is like that in their world and is not free to use openly is because of an ancient magical disaster.

Their will has been conquered? Where did THAT come from? PPE is life energy that a mage or certain other classes can pool and then use to cast spells etc, but that's not their will. Their M.E. is the closest thing we have to their will and that's not getting drained.

However, again, if we go to the SOURCE, we can see (and its mentioned in a few places), that in the Megaverse, belief and magic are intrinsically tied to one another. Belief fuels psychic potential, it can create Gods, change them, suppress magic, or even allow people to master magic and become living batteries of potential psychic energy. Without belief, you can do none of these things. Moreover, since magic is ever-present (though at weaker levels off ley lines), than it is safe to say that everyone's beliefs no matter how minor, have an ability to impact the flow of magic or empower certain beings. Again, this is evident in the power Vampire Intelligences and minor Gods recieve in the form of P.P.E. from mundane (ordinary) human worshipers.

No, belief allows you to channel, it doesn't fuel PPE it's what allows you to gather and channel it though which is rather helpful to mages. But it's the PPE that fuels the gods, suppress magic, or if you want to focus that way you spend your PPE and become a psychic instead.

It does not specifically say. However, its safe to assume it can be belief in anything.

Why is it safe to assume that belief fuels magic? The book talks about how belief makes it so your spells will work, but I'm unclear on what your making these assumptions on other then it's a theme you like, which is fine but I'm not sure what it falls under in the actual rules.


Daniel Stoker

Daniel Stoker wrote:Why is it safe to assume that belief fuels magic?

I will not be responding after this, because I am 99.8% sure you're just trolling and are only reading my statements just to try to find ways to pick at/twist them (which is why you are asking me loaded questions, such as "What do they have to believe in").

Without even going to the books that cover it in more detail, as I posted previously:

their "anti-paranormal" convictions fueled their psionic potential

The ability to suppress magic, costs P.P.E.
P.P.E. is magic.
P.P.E. stands for "Potential Psychic Energy"
Their power which is powered by P.P.E. is fueled (powered) by the convictions.

Conviction, is defined as "A firmly held belief or opinion."

Without belief you cannot cast spells, and without the potential to cast spells, you cannot become a practitioner of magic.

I've said this before, and I am leaving it here (I won't be replying anymore). If you still cannot grasp such a simple concept, it is probably, because you do not want to. Which is fine, just don't ask me to change your mind. If you want to change your mind, you can read the sources I provided earlier. There you will find the information you are looking for.

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Rifts Worldbook 12: Psyscape wrote:In the days before the Coming of the Rifts, a Nega-Psychic was an individual who refused to believe in magic, E.S.P., and the paranormal. Ironically, these individuals were themselves psychic, and their "anti-paranormal" convictions fueled their psionic potential to make them semi-impervious to psychic powers, magic and the supernatural. In many ways, the Nega-Psychic is another manifestation of mind-over-matter: "I don't believe, therefore it does not exist, and I cannot be hurt by something that is not real."

Rifts Worldbook 12: Psyscape wrote:Of course on Rifts Earth, it is virtually impossible to honestly believe that supernatural beings, demons, dragons, magic, and psychic abilities are not real; they are everywhere and known to be extremely "real." Consequently, the Nega-Psychic of Rifts Earth has effectively adapted to this magic and supernatural rich environment. The Nega-Psychic accepts that such things "are" real, but he is still a skeptic of sorts, and is extremely strong willed. In this case, he refuses to accept that such forces can control, dominate or destroy him.

Thus, implying that it is still his will and belief that such forces cannot afflict him that fuel, power, and are (in-conjunction with his psychic potential) the source his abilities. You can decide whether or not magic can be shaped or influenced by belief, but I think that its made perfectly clear that it can and does.

Shaped and influenced, definitely.
"Caused," though, is another story.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Shaped and influenced, definitely.
"Caused," though, is another story.

If you remember how this started, it was because I had the nerve to suggest that the reason the dinosaurs are M.D.C. is because the magic makes them M.D.C. because people recognize the power of dinosaurs. Not in so many words, but essentially. It could well be something else too.

Then, it became twisted to be "Akashic Soldier thinks that all magic is belief" which I never claimed, not for a minute. I think I even clarify earlier, when I explain that knowing the occult gestures and spells words is not enough to cast a spell.

Indeed, it was an interesting theory, but doesn't explain why Bears, or Tigers are not MDC creatures, as people would clearly believe they were dangerous beings like dinosaurs. Unless dinosaurs were already more dangerous for some reason than said tigers and bears, perhaps because they were already MDC creatures. Maybe.

I also enjoy the 'here's my theory, it's not stated as fact, but it isn't explicitly stated that it is NOT correct, so you can't prove it isn't' concept. Nicely original.

Eashamahel wrote:Indeed, it was an interesting theory, but doesn't explain why Bears, or Tigers are not MDC creatures, as people would clearly believe they were dangerous beings like dinosaurs.

I figure its part of the mystique and size. Then again, if Lemurian experimenters/bionmancers can't figure it out, than what hope do we have?

Well.... If it mentions the dinosaurs in the Lemurian book, and it mentioned Lemurians in Underseas, then I guess we only have to wait as long as we waited after Underseas for the Lemurians before we get the book about Lemurian Dinosaurs.

So, basically most of us will be dead by then.

Akashic Soldier wrote:I will not be responding after this, because I am 99.8% sure you're just trolling and are only reading my statements just to try to find ways to pick at/twist them (which is why you are asking me loaded questions, such as "What do they have to believe in").

Nope, I'm not seeing why based on what the section of the book that actually talks about belief in magic says it's safe to make that assumption.

Without even going to the books that cover it in more detail, as I posted previously:

their "anti-paranormal" convictions fueled their psionic potential

The ability to suppress magic, costs P.P.E.
P.P.E. is magic.
P.P.E. stands for "Potential Psychic Energy"
Their power which is powered by P.P.E. is fueled (powered) by the convictions.

Conviction, is defined as "A firmly held belief or opinion."

Without belief you cannot cast spells, and without the potential to cast spells, you cannot become a practitioner of magic.

I've said this before, and I am leaving it here (I won't be replying anymore). If you still cannot grasp such a simple concept, it is probably, because you do not want to. Which is fine, just don't ask me to change your mind. If you want to change your mind, you can read the sources I provided earlier. There you will find the information you are looking for.

Without belief you can't cast, that doesn't make it so belief changes the universe, it just allows you to build and channel your PPE, the energy that actually is used in creating the magic. But we agree you need belief to cast, the problem is you're adding to that and claiming that it's belief that changes the world something which worked in mage but there's no evidence that it's belief changing anything in the world, just allowing you to use your PPE to do things. No PPE, no casting spells, and no cancelling them out no matter how hard you believe.

PPE also doesn't equal your will and no PPE doesn't mean your will has been conquered either.

And instead of calling everyone out for trolling you when they disagree with a premise and point out why maybe you should consider the possibility that maybe they really think that and don't see where you're coming from? KC can drive me to distraction sometimes and I wanna kick him, but that's due to his style and how I think and not because he's trying to be a ****.


Daniel Sstoker

Akashic Soldier wrote:Then, it became twisted to be "Akashic Soldier thinks that all magic is belief" which I never claimed, not for a minute. I think I even clarify earlier, when I explain that knowing the occult gestures and spells words is not enough to cast a spell.

Shenanigans, please show where I said anything like that. You specifically said, "belief can empower magic" and my point was that belief allowed you to cast, not that it was what empowered magic as that would be PPE the energy you spend to cast magic.


Daniel Stoker

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Shaped and influenced, definitely.
"Caused," though, is another story.

If you remember how this started, it was because I had the nerve to suggest that the reason the dinosaurs are M.D.C. is because the magic makes them M.D.C. because people recognize the power of dinosaurs.

Right... but the implication there seems to be that either the collective subconscious of mages turned dinos MDC, or that non-mages can unconsciously create magical effect.
Which seems unprecedented.

Also, it kind of nets out as a circular argument: if Dinos were SDC creatures to begin with, then there would be no reason for people to "recognize the power of them," because that power simply wouldn't be there- dinos could be rather easily dispatched by mega-damage weaponry, or even high-end SDC weaponry.
A town with a few heavy ballistas could chase off a T-Rex, for example, or even with some AK-47s and armor-piercing or explosive rounds.
And the lesser dinos wouldn't be much of a problem either.

Not in so many words, but essentially. It could well be something else too.

Of course.
And it's not the most outlandish theory that I've heard on the subject; I rate it as possible, even if I don't think that it's entirely plausible.
There are less plausible explanations for things that are in canon, after all.

Then, it became twisted to be "Akashic Soldier thinks that all magic is belief" which I never claimed, not for a minute. I think I even clarify earlier, when I explain that knowing the occult gestures and spells words is not enough to cast a spell.

I don't think it was that, so much as "Akashic Soldier thinks that belief causes magic."
But that's getting into semantics.

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Daniel Stoker wrote:Why is it safe to assume that belief fuels magic?

I will not be responding after this, because I am 99.8% sure you're just trolling and are only reading my statements just to try to find ways to pick at/twist them (which is why you are asking me loaded questions, such as "What do they have to believe in")...

I realize I'm on your ignore list, and therefore won't see this, but Daniel isn't that type of poster.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Also, it kind of nets out as a circular argument: if Dinos were SDC creatures to begin with, then there would be no reason for people to "recognize the power of them," because that power simply wouldn't be there- dinos could be rather easily dispatched by mega-damage weaponry, or even high-end SDC weaponry.

This was what I was thinking with the 'Tigers and Bears' statement, exactly, but I realize I stopped taking the conversation seriously before I probably should have.

Eashamahel wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Also, it kind of nets out as a circular argument: if Dinos were SDC creatures to begin with, then there would be no reason for people to "recognize the power of them," because that power simply wouldn't be there- dinos could be rather easily dispatched by mega-damage weaponry, or even high-end SDC weaponry.

This was what I was thinking with the 'Tigers and Bears' statement, exactly, but I realize I stopped taking the conversation seriously before I probably should have.

Although... iirc, MDC grizzlies have started inexplicably appearing, according to Rifts CND.

Page 5 of this thread is totally about South America 2. Definitely not about measuring philosophical wiener sizes.

This is seriously an odd debate though. Mechanically I imagine you guys play it pretty similar, lol.

I thought conceptually it was pretty interesting even if I don't see it in the rules.


Daniel Stoker

Beleif has nothing to do with mdc dinos. Even if belief has a role in magic beyond 'cant do something if you refuse totry', tthe books are quite clear that belief is more of a personal.effect thing.
And dinosaurs are not sapient enough to hold beliefs of such sort. Most are creatures of instint, their brain structures heavily focused around stimulus/response.. high order thinking like belief is not part of their mentality.

However we know that in high PPE enviroments creatures evolve to exploit that energy. (Psistalkers for example, also mdc bears. 'Blueprint of a dragon' in the rifter explores some of this)

And earth prior to the atlantian mistake was a high magic enviroment. So dinosaurs and other prehistoric creatures were evolving in lots of PPE present. It makes sense they'd evolve to exploit it. Psistalkers evolved aan mdc protection ability pretty quick.. it isn't hard to believe that dinosaurs, with 100 million extra years of evolution, didn't develop similar protection, and an 'always on' version. There are major evolutionary advantades to being super durable. And preedators would evolve ways to hurt those super tough creatures, as well as super toughness themseves since predators fight each other as well.
The spell like abilities seen in the dinoswamp books are consistant with this logic as well.

When these creatures wound up on rifts earth, where magic is even higher levels than in the past, their natural abilities just got 'supercharged'

glitterboy2098 wrote:Beleif has nothing to do with mdc dinos. Even if belief has a role in magic beyond 'cant do something if you refuse totry', tthe books are quite clear that belief is more of a personal.effect thing.

It isn't just a personal effect thing, look at all of the Gods described within the books and the amount of power they command due to being worshiped. It could be a similar principle to the Dinosaurs - they aren't Gods but people sure do fear them and expect great strength from them. That belief could be empowering them in the exact same manner as it does the Gods.

Except the gods specifically say why they're empowered by worshipers, we don't have that with anything else that's non-deific especially with how the rules do talk about belief and what it does effect.


Daniel Stoker

You point number 2 invalidates pretty much any attempts at proving a point number 1. As you hold the belief that their is no 'absolute, ect' than nothing can be unbalanced, ect.

Little Snuzzles wrote:Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who posted in this thread so far.

I've read all the posts and I still come back to the same conclusions:

1) SA2 is not significantly more powerful than other books.
2) There is no 'RPG Absolute' that says all things much be equal or fair.

Many of you disagree with me; that's fine. I appreciate all of your arguments even if I disagree with them.

#1 is like claiming, "elephants are not significantly more powerful than other animals."
#2 is a non sequitur that doesn't really affect the topic of conversation.

Little Snuzzles wrote:Believe whatever you want to believe. Have a nice day.

It just seems like you're leaving with exactly the same viewpoint that you started the conversation with, in spite of all the evidence, examples, and arguments.
Dismissing everything that everybody has said, seemingly out of hand, just doesn't seem like a "positive" note to me.

So, in short, back atcha.

Little Snuzzles wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Dismissing everything that everybody has said, seemingly out of hand, just doesn't seem like a "positive" note to me.

So, since many think otherwise, they must be correct?

No.
Since many people have presented sound logical arguments, those arguments should be considered and/or addressed, not dismissed.
Even if they are ultimately not agreed with.

I'm not "dismissing" the arguments of others; I am disagreeing with them. If I had "dismissed" them I wouldn't have listened to them at all or engaged in debate.

I don't feel that the arguments presented were adequately discussed to disagree with without addressing the points in the argument.

For example, my point about the elephant (which I didn't get into because I was posting via phone) was that your claims that "other books are as powerful" seem based on the high-end stuff in other books being roughly on par with the low-or-medium stuff in SA2.
Which isn't a fair comparison.
It's like saying that because whales and some other creatures are more powerful than elephants, that "elephants are not significantly more powerful than other animals."
While the statement might be technically true, it's misleading in nature because it implies that elephants are not significantly more powerful than the average animal.

And your original post wasn't even asking whether SA2 was more powerful than other books... it was asking whether SA2 was "too powerful," which is a significantly different question.

Combined, it's like looking at a CR 1,000 pistol that inflicts 2d6x10 MD per shot, and claiming, "Well, this does less damage than the Boom Gun, so it must not be 'too powerful'."
When in order to make an accurate conclusion, the pistol would have to be compared to other weapons in that category... weapons that were similar in function and form.

When the infantry weapons of what should be a relatively low-tech region inflict 2x the average damage of the Power Armor weapons in what should be a higher-tech region, it doesn't matter if there's other stuff out there somewhere in the megaverse that's just as powerful- what matters is that the weapons in question have more power than they should, given what we know about the setting.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
For example, my point about the elephant (which I didn't get into because I was posting via phone)

The Beast wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Daniel Stoker wrote:belief fuels magic?

I am 99.8% sure you're just trolling and are only reading my statements just to try to find ways to pick at/twist them

Daniel isn't that type of poster.

I think we should avoid doing things like accusing other posters of 'trolling'. This implies people don't believe what they say. We have no way of verifying or disproving what people do or do not believe, so I say give the benefit of the doubt and treat all words at face value.

If some people want to pick at statements, that is fine. As for 'twisting', if something is responded to out of context, that can be addressed case by case.

Lost Seraph wrote:As for dinosaurs being MDC, I believe it's do to the absorption of magic into their bodies, and the fact that they arrived due to Rift activity. Or it could be that they're just that cool....

It's that they're cool.
Which is NOT a cool reason.

Lost Seraph wrote:Sure it is, KC. Not everything needs some well written or mind blowing reason for the way it's presented in an RPG.

How about "adequate?"

MDC dinosaurs are a minor point in the Rifts universe.

If the details in a setting don't make sense, then the setting doesn't make sense.