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Sgt Anjay wrote:Are they different? Of course, but that doesn't mean that humanity replicated from scratch an extremely close counterpart to Tirolian technology on a Tirolian ship by some grand cosmic coincidence. It just means that the way humans adapted the technology to get it working once they realized it was there ended up with unique results. Rather like all of human Robotechnology.

Except at least in Robotech it's explicit that the pinpoint barriers were created from studying the lingering spacial distortion where the Fold drive used to be, there's nothing to imply or explicitly lead one to believe they just took and fixed up existing barrier systems. If that were the case they'd have not had a 'hey Captain look at this new thing I've developed for us!' moment we'd have had 'Hey Captain we finally got those Pinpoint Barriers working'. Humans came up with radical new ideas that the Masters never thought of. I mean really they took and completely rebuilt an alien craft in 10 years AND build the entire line of Veritech and other Robotech mecha in that time as well. That's far beyond 'well we just used what we found' that's 'wow you'd think with all this they'd have done more than they have'.

Nightmask wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:Are they different? Of course, but that doesn't mean that humanity replicated from scratch an extremely close counterpart to Tirolian technology on a Tirolian ship by some grand cosmic coincidence. It just means that the way humans adapted the technology to get it working once they realized it was there ended up with unique results. Rather like all of human Robotechnology.

Except at least in Robotech it's explicit that the pinpoint barriers were created from studying the lingering spacial distortion where the Fold drive used to be, there's nothing to imply or explicitly lead one to believe they just took and fixed up existing barrier systems. If that were the case they'd have not had a 'hey Captain look at this new thing I've developed for us!' moment we'd have had 'Hey Captain we finally got those Pinpoint Barriers working'.

Except its very clear that while the humans had no idea the SDF-1 contained any kind of barrier system, dialog proves that not only did it have a barrier system before it crashed, but the Robotech Masters knew about it, were familiar with it, and also had a two-tier system with pin-points and full barriers for defense on their own Motherships! Humans thinking they were developing something new is a function of them not knowing what the ship could do, nothing more nothing less. Just because they didn't know what they were looking at in the fold drive room, and the dialog shows they definitely didn't, doesn't mean it wasn't always there.

Nightmask wrote: Humans came up with radical new ideas that the Masters never thought of. I mean really they took and completely rebuilt an alien craft in 10 years AND build the entire line of Veritech and other Robotech mecha in that time as well. That's far beyond 'well we just used what we found' that's 'wow you'd think with all this they'd have done more than they have'.

This would have much more force if it wasn't for the fact that humans didn't come up with a radical new idea. The Masters already had pin-points and full barriers! That humans would come up with a variant of them too, from scratch, by coincidence and thanks to an accident, is a lot less likely than humans jury-rigging a system they didn't know about into operation, especially since the SDF-1 was a Tirolian ship to begin with, and they were in the process of a whole series of revelations on the SDF-1; this was, after all, but one episode after the very first transformation.

Sgt Anjay wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:Are they different? Of course, but that doesn't mean that humanity replicated from scratch an extremely close counterpart to Tirolian technology on a Tirolian ship by some grand cosmic coincidence. It just means that the way humans adapted the technology to get it working once they realized it was there ended up with unique results. Rather like all of human Robotechnology.

Except at least in Robotech it's explicit that the pinpoint barriers were created from studying the lingering spacial distortion where the Fold drive used to be, there's nothing to imply or explicitly lead one to believe they just took and fixed up existing barrier systems. If that were the case they'd have not had a 'hey Captain look at this new thing I've developed for us!' moment we'd have had 'Hey Captain we finally got those Pinpoint Barriers working'.

Except its very clear that while the humans had no idea the SDF-1 contained any kind of barrier system, dialog proves that not only did it have a barrier system before it crashed, but the Robotech Masters knew about it, were familiar with it, and also had a two-tier system with pin-points and full barriers for defense on their own Motherships! Humans thinking they were developing something new is a function of them not knowing what the ship could do, nothing more nothing less. Just because they didn't know what they were looking at in the fold drive room, and the dialog shows they definitely didn't, doesn't mean it wasn't always there.

Nightmask wrote: Humans came up with radical new ideas that the Masters never thought of. I mean really they took and completely rebuilt an alien craft in 10 years AND build the entire line of Veritech and other Robotech mecha in that time as well. That's far beyond 'well we just used what we found' that's 'wow you'd think with all this they'd have done more than they have'.

This would have much more force if it wasn't for the fact that humans didn't come up with a radical new idea. The Masters already had pin-points and full barriers! That humans would come up with a variant of them too, from scratch, by coincidence and thanks to an accident, is a lot less likely than humans jury-rigging a system they didn't know about into operation, especially since the SDF-1 was a Tirolian ship to begin with, and they were in the process of a whole series of revelations on the SDF-1; this was, after all, but one episode after the very first transformation.

Well now it doesn't matter what the SDF-1 had on board if the humans came up with something from scratch now does it? Don't realize it's got rail guns so you come up with your own the fact it has rail guns doesn't mean anything at all because you still built them on your own. You're arguing something that's simply not supported by any of what we see in the anime. There is nothing said anywhere that they jury-rigged existing systems or anything else of that effect, it clearly has the humans developing their pinpoint and full-ship systems from independent study.

It also is just as likely that the Masters developed THEIR system from the same root source that the humans did, studying what was left behind as a result of a fold event inside a gravity well. They could have easily during early experiments folded inside a gravity well without realizing the hazards, created a nice little glittery piece of space to study and come up with force field systems. So indeed it's not a coincidence at all, humanity simply made a mistake like the Masters did with their Fold drive experiments and they independently developed similar systems from that same source of information.

Sgt Anjay wrote:Except its very clear that while the humans had no idea the SDF-1 contained any kind of barrier system, dialog proves that not only did it have a barrier system before it crashed, but the Robotech Masters knew about it, were familiar with it, and also had a two-tier system with pin-points and full barriers for defense on their own Motherships!

Eh... you've built a chain of reasonably accurate assertions that somehow ended up with a conclusion that contradicts the series. Yes, the series establishes that the omnidirectional barrier was part of the ship before it was rebuilt, but, as Nightmask pointed out, the same cannot be said for the pinpoint barrier. As the Macross Saga illustrates, Dr. Lang was the developer of the pinpoint barrier. Thus, its similarities to the point-defense shield used by Tirolan motherships would appear to be the product of coincidence.

Due to the dialogue, there is essentially no case to suggest that Dr. Lang simply restored an existing system when he made the pinpoint barrier. It was explicitly a development made by Dr. Lang based on observation of the spatial distortion left behind by the fold drive vanishing unexpectedly.

Nightmask wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:Are they different? Of course, but that doesn't mean that humanity replicated from scratch an extremely close counterpart to Tirolian technology on a Tirolian ship by some grand cosmic coincidence. It just means that the way humans adapted the technology to get it working once they realized it was there ended up with unique results. Rather like all of human Robotechnology.

Except at least in Robotech it's explicit that the pinpoint barriers were created from studying the lingering spacial distortion where the Fold drive used to be, there's nothing to imply or explicitly lead one to believe they just took and fixed up existing barrier systems. If that were the case they'd have not had a 'hey Captain look at this new thing I've developed for us!' moment we'd have had 'Hey Captain we finally got those Pinpoint Barriers working'.

Except its very clear that while the humans had no idea the SDF-1 contained any kind of barrier system, dialog proves that not only did it have a barrier system before it crashed, but the Robotech Masters knew about it, were familiar with it, and also had a two-tier system with pin-points and full barriers for defense on their own Motherships! Humans thinking they were developing something new is a function of them not knowing what the ship could do, nothing more nothing less. Just because they didn't know what they were looking at in the fold drive room, and the dialog shows they definitely didn't, doesn't mean it wasn't always there.

Nightmask wrote: Humans came up with radical new ideas that the Masters never thought of. I mean really they took and completely rebuilt an alien craft in 10 years AND build the entire line of Veritech and other Robotech mecha in that time as well. That's far beyond 'well we just used what we found' that's 'wow you'd think with all this they'd have done more than they have'.

This would have much more force if it wasn't for the fact that humans didn't come up with a radical new idea. The Masters already had pin-points and full barriers! That humans would come up with a variant of them too, from scratch, by coincidence and thanks to an accident, is a lot less likely than humans jury-rigging a system they didn't know about into operation, especially since the SDF-1 was a Tirolian ship to begin with, and they were in the process of a whole series of revelations on the SDF-1; this was, after all, but one episode after the very first transformation.

Well now it doesn't matter what the SDF-1 had on board if the humans came up with something from scratch now does it?

The fact that the SDF-1 had it on board means that it doesn't make sense that the humans came up with it from scratch, actually.

Nightmask wrote:There is nothing said anywhere that they jury-rigged existing systems or anything else of that effect, it clearly has the humans developing their pinpoint and full-ship systems from independent study.

Seto Kaiba wrote:Due to the dialogue, there is essentially no case to suggest that Dr. Lang simply restored an existing system when he made the pinpoint barrier. It was explicitly a development made by Dr. Lang based on observation of the spatial distortion left behind by the fold drive vanishing unexpectedly.

Actually, that's not what is said at all, though you are liberally inserting data from the OSM as self-evident when it actually isn't. Lang says he doesn't know what happened, that he doesn't know what he's looking at before proposing a theory as to what it might be, then mentions he thinks he can rig up a barrier system. Obviously its not like he didn't do anything himself; the SDF-1 pin-points are different from the Tirolian equivalents we see, evidence that here as elsewhere the humans did it in their own way. But just like the humans used the pre-existing modularity of the SDF-1 to enact a transformation which surprises the Zentraedi (in fact, they had just performed that transformation for the first time in the previous episode), the humans here used previously untapped capability already within the ship.

Exactly what part of that rules out that what he uses to rig up a barrier system is barrier generating components already part of the ship but whose function he hadn't known? We know for sure barrier generating systems were already part of the ship. And how they describe their bringing online of the full-barrier isn't all that different from what they say of the pin-point system.

Zentradi vs. Vampire Intelligence?

Frightening!

G

Kovoston wrote:Zentradi vs. Vampire Intelligence?

Frightening!

G

Vampire Intelligence with a Zentraedi Horde!

Sgt Anjay wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:This would have much more force if it wasn't for the fact that humans didn't come up with a radical new idea. The Masters already had pin-points and full barriers! That humans would come up with a variant of them too, from scratch, by coincidence and thanks to an accident, is a lot less likely than humans jury-rigging a system they didn't know about into operation, especially since the SDF-1 was a Tirolian ship to begin with, and they were in the process of a whole series of revelations on the SDF-1; this was, after all, but one episode after the very first transformation.

Well now it doesn't matter what the SDF-1 had on board if the humans came up with something from scratch now does it?

The fact that the SDF-1 had it on board means that it doesn't make sense that the humans came up with it from scratch, actually.

No, that's not what it means at all. That's what you want it to mean but that's simply not the case. The anime makes it clear that they developed it on their own, without knowledge of any similar systems onboard. You may not like that but what one likes or doesn't like is irrelevant, the anime simply contradicts what you keep claiming. People come up with ideas independent of one another all the time, it often ends up in modern times with patent wars over who got in to patent the idea first.

It doesn't matter at all what was or might have been on the SDF-1 and survived the crash if it's not something explicitly referenced in the anime. No mention of any on-board barrier systems is ever made other than those developed by humans. They could have a bomb that destroys suns on board but if there's never mention of anything of the sort being found on board if the humans were to show off a new bomb that could destroy a sun then one must accept that they developed it themselves rather than having found but inexplicably never mentioned finding the bombs.

Sgt Anjay wrote:Actually, that's not what is said at all, though you are liberally inserting data from the OSM as self-evident when it actually isn't. Lang says he doesn't know what happened, that he doesn't know what he's looking at before proposing a theory as to what it might be, then mentions he thinks he can rig up a barrier system. Obviously its not like he didn't do anything himself; the SDF-1 pin-points are different from the Tirolian equivalents we see, evidence that here as elsewhere the humans did it in their own way. But just like the humans used the pre-existing modularity of the SDF-1 to enact a transformation which surprises the Zentraedi (in fact, they had just performed that transformation for the first time in the previous episode), the humans here used previously untapped capability already within the ship.

Exactly what part of that rules out that what he uses to rig up a barrier system is barrier generating components already part of the ship but whose function he hadn't known? We know for sure barrier generating systems were already part of the ship. And how they describe their bringing online of the full-barrier isn't all that different from what they say of the pin-point system.

My you do work hard to ignore what actually was shown in the anime to fit what you'd like to be don't you? I've no idea what OSM stands for but there's zero evidence of any data being inserted other than what was in the anime. You're also ignoring the fact that HUMANS gave the SDF-1 it's transforming nature, the concept was completely alien to the Zentraedi AND the Masters and was NOT part of the original design. You also right here state that Lang studied that phenomenon and thought he could come up with something useful from it and did so, contradicting your idea that he was just using an existing system. That's like claiming someone using parts around a junk yard to build a radio even though wasn't a radio there retroactively means there must have been a radio available because you think the guy who built the radio wasn't bright enough to figure it out himself.

Doesn't matter how sure you are that they had parts for a barrier system on the SDF-1, you've nothing at all to support your contention that they had to have used them to build the Pinpoint Barrier or the full-ship barrier. What you do have is a completely human scientist stating he could and later having proven capable of creating these systems for the SDF-1, everything else is completely unfounded. No one ever says anything to the effect of 'Gee good thing we found those pinpoint barrier systems onboard and later that full barrier system', and claims that it had to have happened 'off screen' because you won't credit humans with being so intelligent in spite of it being a standard premise for many sci-fi series and movies has no value to it at all. You can claim anything happened off-screen but you can't show that anything of the sort happened off-screen or on-screen.

Nightmask wrote:The anime makes it clear that they developed it on their own, without knowledge of any similar systems onboard.

They clearly didn't know that barrier tech was on board, but the Robotech Masters themselves say in their very first appearance that the SDF-1 had a barrier system. Feel free to post any quotes proving your assertion that the system was designed from scratch by humans without using pre-existing systems already in the SDF-1, despite the fact that those systems were onboard the SDF-1, as per the Robotech Master dialog.

Nightmask wrote:It doesn't matter at all what was or might have been on the SDF-1 and survived the crash if it's not something explicitly referenced in the anime. No mention of any on-board barrier systems is ever made other than those developed by humans.

And here you are incorrect, because the Robotech Masters both state that the SDF-1 had a barrier system and describe its use.

Nightmask wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:Actually, that's not what is said at all, though you are liberally inserting data from the OSM as self-evident when it actually isn't. Lang says he doesn't know what happened, that he doesn't know what he's looking at before proposing a theory as to what it might be, then mentions he thinks he can rig up a barrier system. Obviously its not like he didn't do anything himself; the SDF-1 pin-points are different from the Tirolian equivalents we see, evidence that here as elsewhere the humans did it in their own way. But just like the humans used the pre-existing modularity of the SDF-1 to enact a transformation which surprises the Zentraedi (in fact, they had just performed that transformation for the first time in the previous episode), the humans here used previously untapped capability already within the ship.

Exactly what part of that rules out that what he uses to rig up a barrier system is barrier generating components already part of the ship but whose function he hadn't known? We know for sure barrier generating systems were already part of the ship. And how they describe their bringing online of the full-barrier isn't all that different from what they say of the pin-point system.

My you do work hard to ignore what actually was shown in the anime to fit what you'd like to be don't you?

Maybe if you provide some sort of quote which proves Lang invented something from scratch instead of using systems in existence it would be easier for your assertion to not be sidestepped.

Nightmask wrote:I've no idea what OSM stands for but there's zero evidence of any data being inserted other than what was in the anime.

Original Source Material; in other words, data from SDF:Macross, as opposed to Robotech.

Nightmask wrote:You're also ignoring the fact that HUMANS gave the SDF-1 it's transforming nature, the concept was completely alien to the Zentraedi AND the Masters and was NOT part of the original design.

You might want to rewatch the episode "Transformation". It is explicitly stated that they are using a capability inherent in the SDF-1 to perform the modular transformation. That the Zentraedi are surprised (something I mentioned) shows that the humans have discovered the pre-existing system and are using it in a new way, which is nice since that's exactly what I'm saying they did with the barrier system.

Nightmask wrote:You also right here state that Lang studied that phenomenon and thought he could come up with something useful from it and did so, contradicting your idea that he was just using an existing system.

Actually, what I said was that he states he didn't know what happened, and doesn't know what he's looking at, though he has a theory. And since he never states how he came up with the SDF-1's post-crash pin-point barriers, using pre-existing systems the way he did for the modular transformation is at least as likely as inventing something from scratch. He may have gotten the idea for a barrier system in the first place because that's what the technology in the room already seemed capable of.

Nightmask wrote:Doesn't matter how sure you are that they had parts for a barrier system on the SDF-1, you've nothing at all to support your contention that they had to have used them to build the Pinpoint Barrier or the full-ship barrier.

You really seem completely unaware that the Robotech Masters clearly and unambiguously confirm the fact that the SDF-1 had a barrier system before it crashed, and even state that a barrier overload could be used as a weapon against a large fleet. So I'm sure of it because that's what the tv series says.

And because the tv series confirms that barrier technology is on the SDF-1, I'm going to assert that's the technology humans used to develop barriers in Robotech.

Nightmask wrote:No one ever says anything to the effect of 'Gee good thing we found those pinpoint barrier systems onboard and later that full barrier system',

A statement like that would be pretty hard since, like other parts of the SDF-1, they were unaware of those systems until they stumbled into them and used them as best they could. Doesn't change the fact that barrier technology, from a civilization shown to have both pin-points and full barriers, existed on that ship (and the full barrier's behavior is even described by the Masters!). This is why making that the source of those developments makes the most sense to me.


So, summing up, facts: The Robotech Masters have a type of pin-point and full barriers. The SDF-1 had barrier tech pre-crash, as per Robotech Master dialog. Humans time and again are unaware of features of the SDF-1, especially in these early episodes. Humans use pre-existing robotechnological features in new ways; Lang himself had just done so in the episode "Transformation". Humans develop pin-points; they later enable the full barrier the Robotech Masters describe.

Those facts all make sense together. Nothing I've seen contradicts them. Therefore, I stand by my opinion. Still, if you find any relevant quotes that actually alter the aforementioned, feel free to share.

Sgt Anjay wrote:

Nightmask wrote:The anime makes it clear that they developed it on their own, without knowledge of any similar systems onboard.

They clearly didn't know that barrier tech was on board, but the Robotech Masters themselves say in their very first appearance that the SDF-1 had a barrier system. Feel free to post any quotes proving your assertion that the system was designed from scratch by humans without using pre-existing systems already in the SDF-1, despite the fact that those systems were onboard the SDF-1, as per the Robotech Master dialog.

Nightmask wrote:It doesn't matter at all what was or might have been on the SDF-1 and survived the crash if it's not something explicitly referenced in the anime. No mention of any on-board barrier systems is ever made other than those developed by humans.

And here you are incorrect, because the Robotech Masters both state that the SDF-1 had a barrier system and describe its use.

Nightmask wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:Actually, that's not what is said at all, though you are liberally inserting data from the OSM as self-evident when it actually isn't. Lang says he doesn't know what happened, that he doesn't know what he's looking at before proposing a theory as to what it might be, then mentions he thinks he can rig up a barrier system. Obviously its not like he didn't do anything himself; the SDF-1 pin-points are different from the Tirolian equivalents we see, evidence that here as elsewhere the humans did it in their own way. But just like the humans used the pre-existing modularity of the SDF-1 to enact a transformation which surprises the Zentraedi (in fact, they had just performed that transformation for the first time in the previous episode), the humans here used previously untapped capability already within the ship.

Exactly what part of that rules out that what he uses to rig up a barrier system is barrier generating components already part of the ship but whose function he hadn't known? We know for sure barrier generating systems were already part of the ship. And how they describe their bringing online of the full-barrier isn't all that different from what they say of the pin-point system.

My you do work hard to ignore what actually was shown in the anime to fit what you'd like to be don't you?

Maybe if you provide some sort of quote which proves Lang invented something from scratch instead of using systems in existence it would be easier for your assertion to not be sidestepped.

Nightmask wrote:I've no idea what OSM stands for but there's zero evidence of any data being inserted other than what was in the anime.

Original Source Material; in other words, data from SDF:Macross, as opposed to Robotech.

Nightmask wrote:You're also ignoring the fact that HUMANS gave the SDF-1 it's transforming nature, the concept was completely alien to the Zentraedi AND the Masters and was NOT part of the original design.

You might want to rewatch the episode "Transformation". It is explicitly stated that they are using a capability inherent in the SDF-1 to perform the modular transformation. That the Zentraedi are surprised (something I mentioned) shows that the humans have discovered the pre-existing system and are using it in a new way, which is nice since that's exactly what I'm saying they did with the barrier system.

Nightmask wrote:You also right here state that Lang studied that phenomenon and thought he could come up with something useful from it and did so, contradicting your idea that he was just using an existing system.

Actually, what I said was that he states he didn't know what happened, and doesn't know what he's looking at, though he has a theory. And since he never states how he came up with the SDF-1's post-crash pin-point barriers, using pre-existing systems the way he did for the modular transformation is at least as likely as inventing something from scratch. He may have gotten the idea for a barrier system in the first place because that's what the technology in the room already seemed capable of.

Nightmask wrote:Doesn't matter how sure you are that they had parts for a barrier system on the SDF-1, you've nothing at all to support your contention that they had to have used them to build the Pinpoint Barrier or the full-ship barrier.

You really seem completely unaware that the Robotech Masters clearly and unambiguously confirm the fact that the SDF-1 had a barrier system before it crashed, and even state that a barrier overload could be used as a weapon against a large fleet. So I'm sure of it because that's what the tv series says.

And because the tv series confirms that barrier technology is on the SDF-1, I'm going to assert that's the technology humans used to develop barriers in Robotech.

Nightmask wrote:No one ever says anything to the effect of 'Gee good thing we found those pinpoint barrier systems onboard and later that full barrier system',

A statement like that would be pretty hard since, like other parts of the SDF-1, they were unaware of those systems until they stumbled into them and used them as best they could. Doesn't change the fact that barrier technology, from a civilization shown to have both pin-points and full barriers, existed on that ship (and the full barrier's behavior is even described by the Masters!). This is why making that the source of those developments makes the most sense to me.


So, summing up, facts: The Robotech Masters have a type of pin-point and full barriers. The SDF-1 had barrier tech pre-crash, as per Robotech Master dialog. Humans time and again are unaware of features of the SDF-1, especially in these early episodes. Humans use pre-existing robotechnological features in new ways; Lang himself had just done so in the episode "Transformation". Humans develop pin-points; they later enable the full barrier the Robotech Masters describe.

Those facts all make sense together. Nothing I've seen contradicts them. Therefore, I stand by my opinion. Still, if you find any relevant quotes that actually alter the aforementioned, feel free to share.

Funny how in all of that you've yet to provide anything that supports your opinion that they didn't create their barrier systems from scratch. There's no mention of them making use of pre-existing technology ('Hey guess what Captain I finally figured out what that one system does!'), there is on the other hand their top scientist stating he thinks he can come up with a barrier system from studying that spacial disturbance, and the Masters are only aware of detecting an event that involved a barrier system which by no means means it's the one that they're thinking of. You apparently even think features humans built into the SDF-1 like its transformable nature were already part of it when it they weren't.

Your entire position revolves around 'I don't believe humans could be smart enough to come up with the idea all by themselves they must have just used something that they found' which is completely unsupported. This is especially ridiculous to claim when you seem to have no problems with Humanity successfully reverse-engineering enough of this completely alien technology right down to figuring out such unknown devices as the anti-gravity systems in just a few years which requires a phenomenal suspension of disbelief right there. Yet you somehow balk at the idea of them figuring out how to build a barrier system on their own and apparently want to claim that they never figured out anything at all and it was all just salvaged Robotechnology in spite of the fact that Humanity completely surprised the Zentraedi and Masters with their transformable mecha and with the SDF-1's transformation sequence.

So summing up, just because the Masters had barrier systems doesn't mean anything. Because they have the technology doesn't mean the systems shown by the humans on the SDF-1 were the same systems, particularly when all of the dialogue in the anime points to humans building it themselves and NOT simply figuring out 'oh that's what that does'. You have nothing to support your contention that they were using existing barrier technology just your belief that that's what they used, nor can you claim that everything that they used was simply existing tech that they simply figured out how to turn on as they went along. They had no problems identifying anti-gravity generators AND knowing that that device in the ship was a Space Fold drive that would let them warp nigh-instantly to other locations it's highly doubtful that they'd have have no clue that a barrier system was a barrier system. They even knew about the main particle beam cannon; so the idea that they're just clueless monkeys figuring it out as they go along just doesn't fit the evidence.

Nightmask wrote:
Funny how in all of that you've yet to provide anything that supports your opinion that they didn't create their barrier systems from scratch. There's no mention of them making use of pre-existing technology ('Hey guess what Captain I finally figured out what that one system does!'), there is on the other hand their top scientist stating he thinks he can come up with a barrier system from studying that spacial disturbance, and the Masters are only aware of detecting an event that involved a barrier system which by no means means it's the one that they're thinking of. You apparently even think features humans built into the SDF-1 like its transformable nature were already part of it when it they weren't.

Actually, the Masters Specifically say "if they could invert THE Robotech barrier system", which means it was a system onbard the ship before it was lost.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

Nightmask wrote:
Funny how in all of that you've yet to provide anything that supports your opinion that they didn't create their barrier systems from scratch. There's no mention of them making use of pre-existing technology ('Hey guess what Captain I finally figured out what that one system does!'), there is on the other hand their top scientist stating he thinks he can come up with a barrier system from studying that spacial disturbance, and the Masters are only aware of detecting an event that involved a barrier system which by no means means it's the one that they're thinking of. You apparently even think features humans built into the SDF-1 like its transformable nature were already part of it when it they weren't.

Actually, the Masters Specifically say "if they could invert THE Robotech barrier system", which means it was a system onbard the ship before it was lost.

Which still doesn't mean the barrier system seen is the one that they specify, when the anime itself gives us no reason to believe it was an existing system that they just happened to figure out that they hadn't before.

I mean think about it. The SDF-1 crashes into Earth and in 10 short years humanity develops all the mecha that is seen at the start of the show from reverse-engineering what they find. They also manage to analyze and determine that the ship had gravity-warping devices for flight, which requires enough scientific acumen to comprehend completely new sciences (since such technology isn't even more than science-fiction in RL or in the time when the SDF-1 crashes into Earth). By the same token in that same 10 year period they actually determine that another device is intended to fold space to allow for skipping across intervening distances and how to make it work. On top of that they actually figure out the thing's got a massive particle beam cannon that has zero evidence in looking at the ship that it exists and would require figuring out miles of circuitry spread all over the place. They're that intelligent, that capable of working all that out, yet somehow they completely miss something like a barrier system? It's less logical to assume that they could miss something that would require like the main gun and space fold system massive amounts of power and therefor be obviously linked into the main power supply instead of developing it themselves and installing it over the course of the anime.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:Actually, the Masters Specifically say "if they could invert THE Robotech barrier system", which means it was a system onbard the ship before it was lost.

Yes, the barrier system... and ain't it funny, the footage they're showing when they deliver that line is of the omnidirectional barrier system. No mention is ever made of where the omnidirectional barrier came from (which, based on this dialogue, suggests it was part of the original ship), but dialogue elsewhere in the show between Dr. Lang and Captain Gloval clearly and explicitly establishes that the pinpoint barrier is a human invention.

They're two separate systems.

Nightmask wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:Actually, the Masters Specifically say "if they could invert THE Robotech barrier system", which means it was a system onbard the ship before it was lost.

Which still doesn't mean the barrier system seen is the one that they specify, when the anime itself gives us no reason to believe it was an existing system that they just happened to figure out that they hadn't before.

if were gonna ignore Dialog specifically about the item in question, then nothing in the Show means anything.

yet somehow they completely miss something like a barrier system? It's less logical to assume that they could miss something that would require like the main gun and space fold system massive amounts of power and therefor be obviously linked into the main power supply instead of developing it themselves and installing it over the course of the anime.

Well, These Same Humans Missed an ENTIRE room several Hundred feet across Filled with the FOL and a Protoculture Matrix...

Colonel Wolfe wrote:Well, These Same Humans Missed an ENTIRE room several Hundred feet across Filled with the FOL and a Protoculture Matrix...

Huh... I wasn't aware of any source that detailed the dimensions and disposition of the concealed protoculture factory aboard the SDF-1... could you please tell us where this information comes from?

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:Well, These Same Humans Missed an ENTIRE room several Hundred feet across Filled with the FOL and a Protoculture Matrix...

Huh... I wasn't aware of any source that detailed the dimensions and disposition of the concealed protoculture factory aboard the SDF-1... could you please tell us where this information comes from?

All based off Calculations and Visuals from the aniimation and canon secondary sources.
The Visuals in the Finals Masters Episode Shows the Protoculture Chamber take sup the majority of the are under the mound. the Exact mound size is ambiguous, but they aren't tiny.

Hi there!

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Nightmask wrote:It's still a force field however it's produced (and studying a glittering bit of space on the ship in no way means that the barrier developed from it isn't what can be considered a conventional energy field), and whatever it is it's still measured the same way.

Um... while this would ordinarily be an entirely valid statement in the context of the RPG, it's not what KLM was asking about. You're essentially protesting something that nobody actually said.

Actually it is what I was asking for. In Robotech, ep 10 (and maybe in Macross too) the SDF-1 is target by a Zentraedi destroyer with
the main P-beam, and the pinpoint barriers are used to deflect it - still, the beam penetrates both the barriers and the bridge/tower section. Yet, the ship survives.
So, it looks like they have a damage treshold, either limited by the amount of damage and/or the amount of energy (feeding the barriers).

The point is, that the barriers are rated like 5000 MDC - now even if we take the combined amount, it is lower than the average cruiser shield rating in the 3Galaxies.
Therefore macross/reflex canons are something survivable by 3Galactic craft - althought probably subject to damage rolls or similar game mechanism.

Also, it looks like those P-beams do not do their full damage to shields.

Nightmask wrote:(and is there even any canonical evidence grouping them together can actually block the Annihilation beam from a ship like the SDF-1? )

In Macross... yes, there is evidence to suggest that a layered pinpoint barrier or the large-scale barrier system used to protect emigration ships could deflect incoming fire from large-scale super dimension energy cannons or quantum reaction beam cannons. Oddly, in the one case that also applies to Robotech, the weapon whose shot was deflected is curiously absent from the official stats.

There are rules for deflecting with pinpoint barrier system... Somewhere...

Nightmask wrote:particularly when the idea suggested is that it actually somehow blocks MORE energy the more powerful the attack is. An attack that can burn a hole in a planet's crust leaving a molten magma field covering quite a few square miles of land mass.

As evidenced by the series itself, Palladium exaggerates somewhat about the impact of the bow-firing converging beam cannons used by the Zentradi.

Yepp, and see above.

Also, Protectors are said to be able to devastate a planet or "shatter a small moon" - even thought the stats do not support them, nor Hystrix like it, but - this
line of thought is repeated in DMB13 (pg100, in the end of cruise missile description). ie. heavy energy weapons - particle beams included - are treated
as weapons of mass destruction, and are forbidden to use against planets by the Lanathor Accord (yet, planetary "slaggings" still happen from time to time).

--------------
This is for Robotech fold drives only:

As we had an agreement the in First Contact it took about 10 days for Breetai to fold to Dolza (give or take like 20%, as evidenced by events on the SDF-1).

Now it was mentioned, that the Icarus (? correct me if I remember falsely) folded to another galaxy within a month. (Was it subjective or objective time?)

Another issue with this intergalactic fold, that
- this vessel was probably built AFTER the first RT war, presumably with refined fold drives and powered by protoculture
- fold drives ARE influenced by gravity fields ie. it is not advised to use them is g-wells, thought possible - the point is, that they might
be faster in "empty" intergalactic space, just as 3G drives

Conclusion: the RT Zentraedi before the TV-series will have slower fold drives (after the series they are decimated and less warlike).

Now there is the question of fold drives functioning in the 3 Galaxies. One can chant over and over, that the problem is with the AM power,
blissfully ingoring powers which do not use AM reactors and are megaversal powers (NE, sploogies, demon and deevils) or elder races (Altess, Dominators
and for a degree the Golgan Argosy, see Tachyon Antitelephone and Sylnor class).

--------------
Impervious to energy:
Again, mages rarely have degrees in particle physics, but some egghead Techno-wizard might call this spell an "time-space distortion blocking particles under
a few hundred picometer" and have heated debates on the exact size.

Of course, not every ship has the function built-in, nor will it render the Zentraedi defenseless.

--------------
Finally:
Maybe the barrier systems (both) were on the SDF-1 all the time, and humans were just able to access the computer, which provided them
information for repairs, carefully hiding the protoculture chamber, the shield system and the Booby Trap.

Now, how long would it take for a Machine Person, a Techno wizard or a Noro to crack it? Prolly a few seconds.

Adios
KLM

The major thing that the Galaxies lack is unification. The Zentradi fleet in their prime was large enough to cover the three galaxies. If some how the galaxies can become unified (to a degree) then it will be one hell of a war. This is the same major problem with the minion war and it is what the Demons of hades is banking alot on as well.

It all depends on the circumstances.

Impervious to energy:
Again, mages rarely have degrees in particle physics, but some egghead Techno-wizard might call this spell an "time-space distortion blocking particles under
a few hundred picometer" and have heated debates on the exact size.

Of course, not every ship has the function built-in, nor will it render the Zentraedi defenseless.

--------------
Finally:
Maybe the barrier systems (both) were on the SDF-1 all the time, and humans were just able to access the computer, which provided them
information for repairs, carefully hiding the protoculture chamber, the shield system and the Booby Trap.

Now, how long would it take for a Machine Person, a Techno wizard or a Noro to crack it? Prolly a few seconds.

Adios
KLM

Excellent jab KLM. Indeed a UWW egghead Mage COULD argue that point w/ anormal engineer or physiscist I'd love to hear such an argument!
Indeed both systems COULD have been on board the SDF-1 and they didn't discover the truth of them unitl after talking w/Exedore or somesuch thing. THAT argument has gone on too long anyway.

Chronicle wrote:The major thing that the Galaxies lack is unification. The Zentradi fleet in their prime was large enough to cover the three galaxies. If some how the galaxies can become unified (to a degree) then it will be one hell of a war. This is the same major problem with the minion war and it is what the Demons of hades is banking alot on as well.

It all depends on the circumstances.

See this is what I've been saying...four pages or so ago. The entire 3G is not gonna team up on the Zentreadi. The Zentreadi, however, are a unified navy....

Hi there!

Chronicle wrote:The major thing that the Galaxies lack is unification.

It is true, thought in the case of Phase World, major powers, as the UWW, TGE and the CCW (and even I can think of the Golgans too) have "interstellar agreements"
to protect it from invaders.

The NE and some sploogies will also join, just to protect their assets, and this will drag in the Altess and maybe even the deevils (as both has substantial interest in NE) too.

And of course there is the formidable power of Phase World itself.

Of course, if the Zentraedi fleet begins with the sploogie Dominiums everyone will stand up and applaud them (as well as the Zentraedi will have the hardest war in their history).

This said, the power players above have reasonable potential in Clairvoyance (and the antitelephone in the case of the Golgans), so they will have sufficient warnings
well before (just see what prophecies and nightmares are mentioned for the Four Horseman on Rifts Earth) - resulting in a similar Three Galactic Unification as UED was in
the Robotech/MAcross timeline.

Adios
KLM

KLM wrote:
Of course, if the Zentraedi fleet begins with the sploogie Dominiums everyone will stand up and applaud them (as well as the Zentraedi will have the hardest war in their history).

And you don't want to see what the Splugorth would do with any Zentraedi prisoners....

Colonel Wolfe wrote:All based off Calculations and Visuals from the aniimation and canon secondary sources.

But the chamber in question is clearly a cave, not a compartment from a wrecked starship... meaning that it's not representative of the actual size of the protoculture factory that Zor hid inside the SDF-1.

KLM wrote:The point is, that the barriers are rated like 5000 MDC - now even if we take the combined amount, it is lower than the average cruiser shield rating in the 3Galaxies.

Ah, yes... but when has the Robotech RPG ever closely followed the contents of the show or even the dictates of common sense? Just briefly skimming thru the Macross Saga sourcebook, I logged a truly staggering number of errors and inconsistencies. Most of the stats are understated to a terrifying extent. For example... in the series, an ARMD could take out a Zentradi battleship with just a few glancing hits from reflex warheads. There's literally no way a RPG ARMD could do it... even if the player rolled the maximum possible damage for every single attack, he'd still need a minimum of 53 direct reflex warhead hits, and even then he'd only be able to disable it.

Can't really say how destructive the bow-firing beam gun on the Queadol-Magdomilla would be in the new RT RPG, since it hasn't been statted. The way it's statted in the old and profoundly inaccurate Macross II: Deck Plans Volume One, it would be entirely feasible for the SDF-1 to carry off blocking a shot from the bow-firing gun (assuming that you're assuming it's the "main laser cannon", the book says it has both that and a heavy "puff, it dies" particle beam cannon. pp28-29, if you actually care).

KLM wrote:Of course, if the Zentraedi fleet begins with the sploogie Dominiums everyone will stand up and applaud them (as well as the Zentraedi will have the hardest war in their history).

For Robotech's Zentradi, maybe... for Macross's Zentradi it'd probably be quite alarmingly easy, what with having an enemy that's fighting to defend fixed positions who's outnumbered probably thousands to one, instead of dealing with an exclusively fleet-based foe every bit as mobile and numerous as they are.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:All based off Calculations and Visuals from the aniimation and canon secondary sources.

But the chamber in question is clearly a cave, not a compartment from a wrecked starship... meaning that it's not representative of the actual size of the protoculture factory that Zor hid inside the SDF-1.

I'm just quoteng the Narrator and showing the Visuals, its not Opinion, its just the information in the show. its the Protoculture factory in the ruins of the SDF-1. The Factory Dolza was assigned to find on board the ship.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:I'm just quoting the Narrator and showing the Visuals, its not Opinion, its just the information in the show. its the Protoculture factory in the ruins of the SDF-1. The Factory Dolza was assigned to find on board the ship.

At the risk of stating the obvious, the narrator isn't exactly the most reliable guy in the show...

Seto Kaiba wrote:the narrator isn't exactly ....reliable... in the show...

its a Logical Fallacy to assume if hes wrong once, he's always wrong. (If A was wrong about B, then A Must be wrong about C), and its basically "Poising the Well", and another form of "Moving the Goal posts" as well...

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

Seto Kaiba wrote:the narrator isn't exactly ....reliable... in the show...

its a Logical Fallacy to assume if hes wrong once, he's always wrong. (If A was wrong about B, then A Must be wrong about C), and its basically "Poising the Well", and another form of "Moving the Goal posts" as well...

It is also logical fallacy to also assume the narrator is right. The narrator needs to ALWAYS be taken with a BIG grain of salt.

jaymz wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

Seto Kaiba wrote:the narrator isn't exactly ....reliable... in the show...

its a Logical Fallacy to assume if hes wrong once, he's always wrong. (If A was wrong about B, then A Must be wrong about C), and its basically "Poising the Well", and another form of "Moving the Goal posts" as well...

It is also logical fallacy to also assume the narrator is right. The narrator needs to ALWAYS be taken with a BIG grain of salt.

"Due to discrepancies of facts, as perceived by the viewing audience, as well as a just general dislike of the pretentious, pontificating sod, the narrator has been sacked."

jaymz wrote:It is also logical fallacy to also assume the narrator is right.

is it? when the Show is the source for information about the Show? The Narrators Dialog is usually misinterpreted as being Omniscient when in fact it is not. Infact in the !st episode of Robotech the Narrator says all of the Damage to the SDF-1 was to the Hull, Leaving ghe systems inside untouched, again meaning the Humans rebuilt and repaired nothing very little inside the ship.

The narrator needs to ALWAYS be taken with a BIG grain of salt.

I don't know whom you speak for, but This fan actually tries to follow the Show, not create some Fanon Idea that the Narrator is always wrong. epically since the Narrator's Dialog is Used and Discounted by people when its convenient to fit their arguments.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

jaymz wrote:It is also logical fallacy to also assume the narrator is right.

is it? when the Show is the source for information about the Show? The Narrators Dialog is usually misinterpreted as being Omniscient when in fact it is not. Infact in the !st episode of Robotech the Narrator says all of the Damage to the SDF-1 was to the Hull, Leaving ghe systems inside untouched, again meaning the Humans rebuilt and repaired nothing very little inside the ship.

The narrator needs to ALWAYS be taken with a BIG grain of salt.

I don't know whom you speak for, but This fan actually tries to follow the Show, not create some Fanon Idea that the Narrator is always wrong. epically since the Narrator's Dialog is Used and Discounted by people when its convenient to fit their arguments.

The narrators comments are rife with hyperbole throughout the show. That in and of itself should indicate what is said should be taken with a grain of salt. Is he always wrong? Not neccessarily but to assume he is always right is just as wrong to do.

jaymz wrote: The narrators comments are rife with hyperbole throughout the show. That in and of itself should indicate what is said should be taken with a grain of salt. Is he always wrong? Not neccessarily but to assume he is always right is just as wrong to do.

funny, that because I never said he is 100% right.
yes, he uses Hyperbole, but also the Narrators Dialog is 100% from Created for the show.
its Fanon to assume the Narrators Dialog is 100% incorrect. but its Equally Fanon and Fallacy to Cherry-pick when the Narrator is Right and Wrong. unless its proven he is wrong in EACH instance, its fallacy to assume he is wrong in any Given instance..
infact the Narrator's Dialog is used to Establish where the Masters are located during the Macross era, and where they fold form. and no one disputes that...

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

jaymz wrote: The narrators comments are rife with hyperbole throughout the show. That in and of itself should indicate what is said should be taken with a grain of salt. Is he always wrong? Not neccessarily but to assume he is always right is just as wrong to do.

funny, that because I never said he is 100% right.
yes, he uses Hyperbole, but also the Narrators Dialog is 100% from Created for the show.
its Fanon to assume the Narrators Dialog is 100% incorrect. but its Equally Fanon and Fallacy to Cherry-pick when the Narrator is Right and Wrong. unless its proven he is wrong in EACH instance, its fallacy to assume he is wrong in any Given instance..
infact the Narrator's Dialog is used to Establish where the Masters are located during the Macross era, and where they fold form. and no one disputes that...

You are the one pointing to the narrator and saying he is right. I am saying he neither right nor wrong and that everything needs to be taken with a grain of salt because it is the narrator NOT the actual events of the show. The dialogue the narrator uses may be for the show but it is also summation at best and neither 100% accurate nor 100% inaccurate since it is only meant to bring the viewer more or less up to speed for that particular episode and nothing more. To use the narrator as a factual source is a mistake plain and simple.

jaymz wrote: You are the one pointing to the narrator and saying he is right.

no, I said he says what he says. and its Dialog from the Show. The Dialog is Dialog. just like the Rest of the characters Dialog.
the Accusations of his Rightness or Wrongness was not originally from me.
but on a side note, the Masters also say the Protoculture matrix is in the Ruins of the SDF-1, hidden in the Reflex furnace... but i guess they should be taken with a grain of salt too since they don't fit someones version of Fanon.

jaymz wrote:The narrator needs to ALWAYS be taken with a BIG grain of salt.

's not just the narrator whose dialogue needs to be taken with a few dump trucks worth of salt... there are plenty of places where character dialogue doesn't match the visuals being shown either (like the "Shrewfield/Sylphid Veritech").

Colonel Wolfe wrote:no, I said he says what he says. and its Dialog from the Show. The Dialog is Dialog. just like the Rest of the characters Dialog.

Yep... and as I just pointed out, there's no shortage of areas where the dialogue does not rationally line up with what's being shown. Incidentally, you do realize that the two images you're showing as proof counter each other, right? It's showing the mounds two massively different scales... in the screen capture, the chamber is shown as a rough-cut cave (AKA clearly not part of a starship) and appears to be no larger than a medium-sized lecture hall (which, while mildly difficult to hide, would not be outside the realm of possibility). On the other image... working from the known dimensions of the SDF-1, the mounds would be at least 400m across at the base... meaning that there's no way that chamber could ever fit inside one of the SDF-1's modules.

You can't have it both ways.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

jaymz wrote:The narrator needs to ALWAYS be taken with a BIG grain of salt.

's not just the narrator whose dialogue needs to be taken with a few dump trucks worth of salt... there are plenty of places where character dialogue doesn't match the visuals being shown either (like the "Shrewfield/Sylphid Veritech").

sorry, the Canon of the Series is the Series, the Fanon Ideas that the Show's Dialog (ie Facts) is wrong about Show is Pure Fanon.
if a Fan's interpretation of the Visuals dont match the dialog, then its a Fan-canon issue, as the Show can't be wrong about its self.

in the screen capture, the chamber is shown as a rough-cut cave (AKA clearly not part of a starship) and appears to be no larger than a medium-sized lecture hall (which, while mildly difficult to hide, would not be outside the realm of possibility).

is it a rough Cut cave? The Masters Admit what they are looking for is buried under mounds of earth.
and how Large is a "Medium Sized" lecture hall?
the Medium Lecture hall at the local convention center I've worked at is about 200ft by 150 ft... not as large as the Largest hall that is over 300 x 200...

but Honestly, its a Topic that needs to be broken off, or Dropped. as its all way off topic.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:but Honestly, its a Topic that needs to be broken off, or Dropped. as its all way off topic.

Huh... that's a clever way to avoid owning up to building an indefensible argument around a mutually-contradictory body of evidence. But you're right, we've gotten off topic, so I won't belabor the point any further.


Anyway... as requested, let's make our way back to the salient points from the last page.

Being that I've never owned any of the Three Galaxies books, I haven't a clue what the MDC ratings are for the various shield systems used by the races in the 3G setting. Likewise, it's hard to get a good read on Zentradi capability via the new RT RPG, since Mr. Marker and co. left most of their ships out of the Macross Saga sourcebook because they were expecting a dedicated spaceships book would be made... something that seems to have been forgotten or shelved indefinitely in his absence. The two entries that did make it into the book depart from what's shown in the series in several places. Neither ship is ever shown with the huge, heavy beam cannons that the book describes them with (first weapon entry or each).

Using the rather more complete information in the old Macross II Deck Plans books is problematic in its own way, since the ships described therein are MUCH more powerful than the equivalent versions in the new Robotech RPG. For comparison purposes, let's look at both classes of ship from the new RPG against the M2 equivalents:

Nupetiet Vergnitzs-class

• MDC: The Macross II version of this ship has 2.24x the net hull MDC of the Robotech 2nd Ed. version. The MDC of its main engine alone is 20% greater than that of the RT 2nd Ed.'s entire rear third (the most heavily armored section).
• Armament, Main: The M2 version has a bow-firing converging beam cannon with 3.33x the range of the similar weapon on RT2E's SDF-1 or the six long-range turrets on the RT2E version of the same class, to say nothing of it being a instant death gun.
• Armament, Turret: The M2 version lacks the six super-heavy turrets on the RT2E version, but its basic anti-ship turrets are more numerous (10 more), have the same rate of fire, 18x the range, and the minimum MD dealt per shot is the same as the maximum MD per shot of the RT2E version. Even its light defense guns have longer ranges and more damage potential.
• Mecha Compliment: The M2 version carries 33% more mecha.
• Sublight Speed: The M2 version is 56 times faster than its RT2E equivalent.
• Fold System: The M2 version has no stated range limits or malfunctions, the RT2E version is limited to jumps of 180 parsecs or less.

Thuverl Salan-class

• MDC: The Macross II version of this ship has 1.31x the net hull MDC of the Robotech 2nd Ed. version.
• Armament, Main: The M2 version has a bow-firing converging beam cannon with 3.33x the range of the similar weapon on RT2E's SDF-1 or the six long-range turrets on the RT2E version of the same class, to say nothing of it being a instant death gun.
• Armament, Turret: The M2 version lacks the 3 super-heavy turrets on the RT2E version, but its anti-ship armaments enjoy the significantly greater reach and punch that I described above, though they are somewhat less numerous than the RT2E version's.
• Mecha Compliment: The M2 version carries 23% more mecha.
• Sublight Speed: The M2 version is 38 times faster than its RT2E equivalent.
• Fold System: The M2 version has no stated range limits or malfunctions, the RT2E version is limited to jumps of 180 parsecs or less.

On top of that, it should also be noted that the Macross Zentradi are ~2,000x as numerous as their Robotech "cousins", and boast between 40,000 and 100,000x the manpower and material-production capacity. (As per Macross Chronicle)

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:but Honestly, its a Topic that needs to be broken off, or Dropped. as its all way off topic.

Huh... that's a clever way to avoid owning up to building an indefensible argument around a mutually-contradictory body of evidence. But you're right, we've gotten off topic, so I won't belabor the point any further.

if the only thing i have to defend against is the Mantra "the Show's Narrator is Wrong about the Show he Narrates" then I see no further reason to Debate the topic.

I haven't a clue what the MDC ratings are for the various shield systems used by the races in the 3G setting.

some examples for the Phase World Shields:
the Black Eagle Fighter has a 1200 MDC shield, (200 per "side")
the CAF-Katana Fighter has 1800, 300 per side
Frigates have around 2000-6000
the Doombringer and Protector has 90,000 worth of Shields...

Colonel Wolfe wrote:some examples for the Phase World Shields:
the Black Eagle Fighter has a 1200 MDC shield, (200 per "side")
the CAF-Katana Fighter has 1800, 300 per side
Frigates have around 2000-6000
the Doombringer and Protector has 90,000 worth of Shields...

Ah, thanks... that's some useful context for my sake.

Barring potential cop-outs like "Impervious to Energy", it's looking like the larger and deadlier warships of the Three Galaxies setting have little to fear from RT2E Zentradi warships in one on one combat. Even the RT2E version of the Nupetiet Vergnitzs-class will need three or so melees to be sure of knocking the shields down... assuming they're not the type that regenerates. Assuming its accuracy is inexplicably perfect, the theoretical mean damage it can pump out with its anti-ship turrets in a single melee is only 100,000. By contrast, M2's version of same can hit from eighteen times as far away, and deal about five and a half times as much damage (550,000) on average if everything hits, which is likely powerful enough to not only take the shield down but knock a big chunk off the cruiser itself.

Of course... if the Zentradi are fighting an opponent one-on-one, then that's pretty odd in and of itself. I dunno how big fleets in the Three Galaxies get, but under normal conditions the smallest operating unit of a Zentradi fleet is the branch fleet, which is usually ~1,200 ships strong... including plenty of gun destroyers.

I don't see Regen on any of the Shields, but they are listed as "Variable" and list the diffren sides, I don't have my DB1, Phase World, just the DB3:PWSB... so i dont know whats detailed in there for 3g's forces.
thou a Doom bringer has 350K main body, and the protector has 250K...

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:but Honestly, its a Topic that needs to be broken off, or Dropped. as its all way off topic.

Huh... that's a clever way to avoid owning up to building an indefensible argument around a mutually-contradictory body of evidence. But you're right, we've gotten off topic, so I won't belabor the point any further.

if the only thing i have to defend against is the Mantra "the Show's Narrator is Wrong about the Show he Narrates" then I see no further reason to Debate the topic.

Repeatedly I have nto seen anyone say the narrator is wrong, dude really read will ya? I said (and Seto to a bigger degree to be sure ) what he says needs to be taken with a grain of salt. As for the matrix in the reflex furnaces, not in dispute what I HAVE disputed with you is that the matrix/factory itself is as big as you claim it to be.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:I don't see Regen on any of the Shields, but they are listed as "Variable" and list the diffren sides, I don't have my DB1, Phase World, just the DB3:PWSB... so i dont know whats detailed in there for 3g's forces.
thou a Doom bringer has 350K main body, and the protector has 250K...

I believe they regen but VERY slowly......as for the "Variable" I believe that is reference to the fact the amount of MDC can be shunted from side to side to reinforce specific sides with more than the "average" amount.

jaymz wrote:
Repeatedly I have nto seen anyone say the narrator is wrong, dude really read will ya? I said (and Seto to a bigger degree to be sure ) what he says needs to be taken with a grain of salt. As for the matrix in the reflex furnaces, not in dispute what I HAVE disputed with you is that the matrix/factory itself is as big as you claim it to be.

grain of Salt: To take a statement with 'a grain of salt' or 'a pinch of salt' means to accept it but to maintain a degree of skepticism about its truth.
and it wasn't the comment, it was saying the narrator was being called not "Reliable". which basically he is Dishonest or untrustworthy.

and a Room that is a few hundred feet across in a Ship that Holds an entire city? i mena honestly, Rick and Minmay were hidden in a part of the ship for a long time that no one knew was there... how many places like that could have existed elsewhere... and how hard is it to hide a large room in a ship that's over a Kilometer long and nearly half a KM wide

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

jaymz wrote:
Repeatedly I have nto seen anyone say the narrator is wrong, dude really read will ya? I said (and Seto to a bigger degree to be sure ) what he says needs to be taken with a grain of salt. As for the matrix in the reflex furnaces, not in dispute what I HAVE disputed with you is that the matrix/factory itself is as big as you claim it to be.

grain of Salt: To take a statement with 'a grain of salt' or 'a pinch of salt' means to accept it but to maintain a degree of skepticism about its truth.
and it wasn't the comment, it was saying the narrator was being called not "Reliable". which basically he is Dishonest or untrustworthy.

and a Room that is a few hundred feet across in a Ship that Holds an entire city? i mena honestly, Rick and Minmay were hidden in a part of the ship for a long time that no one knew was there... how many places like that could have existed elsewhere... and how hard is it to hide a large room in a ship that's over a Kilometer long and nearly half a KM wide

Actually the ship itself is not nearly half a kilometre in width...(it is however if you count the Prometheus and Daedalus attachments).

The point however is the narrator does specify the size or excatley what is said "chamber". What I see in teh clips could just as easily be the engines themselves and there is a significantly smaller "chamber" inside since the narrator isn't specific thus why I take what he says with a grain of salt. You are making assumptions about it and I don't agree with them so there is no point in arguing about it further.

And for the record taking something with a grain of salt still doesn't dismiss what is said out of hand the way you seem to be inferring but indicates more (at least to me) a desire for further extrapolation and information to corroborate what the Narrator says.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:I don't see Regen on any of the Shields, but they are listed as "Variable" and list the diffren sides, I don't have my DB1, Phase World, just the DB3:PWSB... so i dont know whats detailed in there for 3g's forces.
thou a Doom bringer has 350K main body, and the protector has 250K...

So... if we were generous (to 3G) and assumed 50% mean accuracy and the mean MD level per gun, a M2 Zentradi fleet command battleship should be able to mop a "Doombringer" or a "Protector" up in just two melees, before the 3G ships can even close to weapons range. I'd say that's a pretty advantageous situation... shame the RT2E ships don't share it.

jaymz wrote:Actually the ship itself is not nearly half a kilometre in width...(it is however if you count the Prometheus and Daedalus attachments).

ok, its only 339M wide... over 1100 feet wide...

The point however is the narrator does specify the size or excatley what is said "chamber". What I see in teh clips could just as easily be the engines themselves and there is a significantly smaller "chamber" inside since the narrator isn't specific thus why I take what he says with a grain of salt. You are making assumptions about it and I don't agree with them so there is no point in arguing about it further.

so I'm making the Assumptions, when I'm saying the Narrator say something and this is what is shown... instead of agreeing that What is shown is something else, and what the narrator means is something that we don't see...

So... if we were generous (to 3G) and assumed 50% mean accuracy and the mean MD level per gun, a M2 Zentradi fleet command battleship should be able to mop a "Doombringer" or a "Protector" up in just two melees, before the 3G ships can even close to weapons range. I'd say that's a pretty advantageous situation... shame the RT2E ships don't share it.

for the Protector: its longest Range weapons is 1000 miles for its LRM.s (optimal range is 1-3 miles), its Main + secondary guns have a range of 100 miles. other systems range 2-16 miles... the Top sunlight speed of the Protector is Mach=9= 6,850 mph (11,024 kph)....

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

jaymz wrote:Actually the ship itself is not nearly half a kilometre in width...(it is however if you count the Prometheus and Daedalus attachments).

ok, its only 339M wide... over 1100 feet wide...

right so not nearly a half a kilometre.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

The point however is the narrator does specify the size or excatley what is said "chamber". What I see in teh clips could just as easily be the engines themselves and there is a significantly smaller "chamber" inside since the narrator isn't specific thus why I take what he says with a grain of salt. You are making assumptions about it and I don't agree with them so there is no point in arguing about it further.

so I'm making the Assumptions, when I'm saying the Narrator say something and this is what is shown... instead of agreeing that What is shown is something else, and what the narrator means is something that we don't see...

No we hear the narrator say something but not specify what exactley is being seen. The "chamber" could be inside the thing we see which to me looks like the SDF-1's engines. Just because he says chamber does not mean it HAS to be on screen. THAT is my point about NOT taking the narrator as 100% accurate or factual. You want to continue argue semantics and opinion be my guest but it isn't on topic and I already said there is no point in arguing something we aren't going to agree on.

jaymz wrote:

Kovoston wrote:Zentradi vs. Vampire Intelligence?

Frightening!

G

Vampire Intelligence with a Zentraedi Horde!

Yep, I figure a bunch of giant vampires can stomp out the competition in the Three Galaxies...
G

Kovoston wrote:

jaymz wrote:

Kovoston wrote:Zentradi vs. Vampire Intelligence?

Frightening!

G

Vampire Intelligence with a Zentraedi Horde!

Yep, I figure a bunch of giant vampires can stomp out the competition in the Three Galaxies...
G

Not that there's much chance a Vampire Intelligence could convert a Zentraedi into a vampire, or that if such an implausible event happened the Zentraedi vampire would be able to avoid going feral given the difficulty in finding sources of blood sufficient to keep it fed.

Hi there!

Colonel Wolfe wrote:I don't see Regen on any of the Shields, but they are listed as "Variable" and list the diffren sides, I don't have my DB1, Phase World, just the DB3:PWSB... so i dont know whats detailed in there for 3g's forces.
thou a Doom bringer has 350K main body, and the protector has 250K...

You might be suprised to open DMB3 on page page 108 - > force fields regenerate 5% per melee. Oh, and 3G ships can fire thru their own shields (unlike the SDF-1 for example).

Also, there are a few sentences on TGE and CAF fleets, which are updated in DMB13 - 193.000 subcapitals (frigates and cruisers) and 19.000 capitals
(mostly Protector battleships and Packmaster carriers with a handful of the new dreadnought class). The Discovery Corps is in addition to this, compomising
half of the fleet, but the DC's biggest ship is the Explorer (which is classified as a cruiser, but is mentioned in the fluff text to be the most common sign of CCW presence).

Now, the Explorer has 135K MDC main body, 6*10.000 shields, M13 sublight (DMB2 states that ships can reach 3 times their normal maximum speed with some risks and
with reduced manouverability). 4d6*1000 MD from laser batteries, twice per melee, plus cruise missile launchers, plus LRM launchers, plus point defense, plus fighter compliment.

The ship is listed for 8,5 million tons loaded.

Seto Kaiba wrote:So... if we were generous (to 3G) and assumed 50% mean accuracy and the mean MD level per gun, a M2 Zentradi fleet command battleship should be able to mop a "Doombringer" or a "Protector" up in just two melees, before the 3G ships can even close to weapons range. I'd say that's a pretty advantageous situation... shame the RT2E ships don't share it.

Which is not being generous to the 3Galaxies.

DMB3, on page 104 mention that the 3Galactic ships are smaller and have more advanced targeting systems.

Furthermore, the "sluggish approach while the Zentraedi having a turkey shot" scenario seems funny, but only applicable under specific circumstances - namely if the
ships are in a gravity well.

First and foremost, if fold drives are not functioning (and it is still looks like so) main guns might as well not function if they draw power from the hyperspace.

Second CAF (and TGE) doctrine calls for massed PA/fighter/robot (and even shuttle and frigate in the case of the TGE) attacks against capital ships.

Third, judging from the radius of the Aranea interdictor, CG drives can bring ships within a hundred miles of the opponent - ie. well within range.

Adios
KLM

Colonel Wolfe wrote:for the Protector: its longest Range weapons is 1000 miles for its LRM.s (optimal range is 1-3 miles), its Main + secondary guns have a range of 100 miles. other systems range 2-16 miles... the Top sunlight speed of the Protector is Mach=9= 6,850 mph (11,024 kph)....

Ouch... talk about being brutally outclassed! I guess this just goes to show the difference in scale between the settings being discussed, since 1,000 miles would actually be short by Robotech 2nd Ed. or Macross II standards. Typical anti-ship turrets on Zentradi ships in RT2E max out at 11,000 miles, which seems almost paltry when you remember that those same turrets have a reach of 200,000 miles in the Macross II RPG.

KLM wrote:You might be suprised to open DMB3 on page page 108 - > force fields regenerate 5% per melee. Oh, and 3G ships can fire thru their own shields (unlike the SDF-1 for example).

Ah, 3G shields are polarized then? I can't say I'm surprised, since having a shield you can't shoot thru is pretty rare in SF. Still, being able to regenerate 5% of its shielding a melee is not exactly going to help much when the enemy's average damage per melee is going to be over 3x the shield's full strength, and they can do it from 11 or 200 times farther away.

KLM wrote:Also, there are a few sentences on TGE and CAF fleets, which are updated in DMB13 - 193.000 subcapitals (frigates and cruisers) and 19.000 capitals

I'm assuming those are meant to be commas... so 193,000 escorts and light warships, and 19,000 capital ships? By the standards of most SF titles, that'd be a massive fleet. But, I would like to point out, Macross and Robotech do things on a MUCH larger scale where the Zentradi are concerned. Boddole Zer's 118th Main Fleet was described as being fairly typical, and it numbered 4,795,122 ships and a mobile fortress. (Outnumbering those 3G forces about 23 to 1)

KLM wrote:Now, the Explorer has 135K MDC main body, 6*10.000 shields, M13 sublight (DMB2 states that ships can reach 3 times their normal maximum speed with some risks and
with reduced manouverability). 4d6*1000 MD from laser batteries, twice per melee, plus cruise missile launchers, plus LRM launchers

... and all at substantially shorter ranges than the comparable Zentradi weaponry ranged against them, to say nothing of probably being outnumbered hundreds to one when you're talking about fighters.

KLM wrote:Which is not being generous to the 3Galaxies.

Actually, it's pretty fair... at least, based on Super Dimension Fortress Macross and Robotech, as shall now explain:

KLM wrote:DMB3, on page 104 mention that the 3Galactic ships are smaller and have more advanced targeting systems.

More advanced than what? In the animation, we clearly see the Zentradi are capable of astonishing feats of accuracy at ranges of hundreds of thousands of miles... that's really the reason the ranges are listed the way they are in Macross II. Fairly early on, we see them carrying out precision bombardments against targets hundreds of thousands of miles away, hitting surface targets around a grounded ship or destroying a fleet flying in close formation without hitting the ship at the center of that formation...

KLM wrote:Furthermore, the "sluggish approach while the Zentraedi having a turkey shot" scenario seems funny, but only applicable under specific circumstances - namely if the ships are in a gravity well.

Amusingly enough, at the ranges specified, the Zentradi don't exactly need to be right on top of the 3G ships to unleash hell on them... they can do it just as easily from thousands (or hundreds of thousands) of miles away, with the above-mentioned considerable precision.

Also, where folding inside a planetary gravity well is concerned, I would ask that you please remember that "impossible" and "inadvisable" are not the same thing. Macross II: Lovers Again (as well as other Macross titles) indicates that it's perfectly possible to fold into or out of a planet's atmosphere safely if your fold drive is working properly.

KLM wrote:First and foremost, if fold drives are not functioning (and it is still looks like so) main guns might as well not function if they draw power from the hyperspace.

As I and others have pointed out many times in this thread, whether that particular caveat actually applies to Zentradi ships is dubious at best, since Macross and Robotech fold drives operate on marginally different principles from 3G fold drives, and neither use any kind of antimatter power source.

KLM wrote:Second CAF (and TGE) doctrine calls for massed PA/fighter/robot (and even shuttle and frigate in the case of the TGE) attacks against capital ships.

Third, judging from the radius of the Aranea interdictor, CG drives can bring ships within a hundred miles of the opponent - ie. well within range.

At which point the 3G ships will learn the hard way that the Zentradi rely every bit as much on swarming tactics, and that the Zentradi are much better at it by virtue of having a huge advantage in numbers. Plus, I would expect that the 3G ships would probably regret getting that close fairly quickly... after discovering that they've placed themselves inside the range of a multitude of secondary weapons systems on each and every Zentradi ship, multiplying the firepower the numerically superior Zentradi fleet can bring to bear on them from simply excessive to downright astronomical.