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Colonel Wolfe wrote:for the Protector: its longest Range weapons is 1000 miles for its LRM.s (optimal range is 1-3 miles), its Main + secondary guns have a range of 100 miles. other systems range 2-16 miles... the Top sunlight speed of the Protector is Mach=9= 6,850 mph (11,024 kph)....

Ouch... talk about being brutally outclassed! I guess this just goes to show the difference in scale between the settings being discussed, since 1,000 miles would actually be short by Robotech 2nd Ed. or Macross II standards. Typical anti-ship turrets on Zentradi ships in RT2E max out at 11,000 miles, which seems almost paltry when you remember that those same turrets have a reach of 200,000 miles in the Macross II RPG.

KLM wrote:You might be suprised to open DMB3 on page page 108 - > force fields regenerate 5% per melee. Oh, and 3G ships can fire thru their own shields (unlike the SDF-1 for example).

Ah, 3G shields are polarized then? I can't say I'm surprised, since having a shield you can't shoot thru is pretty rare in SF. Still, being able to regenerate 5% of its shielding a melee is not exactly going to help much when the enemy's average damage per melee is going to be over 3x the shield's full strength, and they can do it from 11 or 200 times farther away.

KLM wrote:Also, there are a few sentences on TGE and CAF fleets, which are updated in DMB13 - 193.000 subcapitals (frigates and cruisers) and 19.000 capitals

I'm assuming those are meant to be commas... so 193,000 escorts and light warships, and 19,000 capital ships? By the standards of most SF titles, that'd be a massive fleet. But, I would like to point out, Macross and Robotech do things on a MUCH larger scale where the Zentradi are concerned. Boddole Zer's 118th Main Fleet was described as being fairly typical, and it numbered 4,795,122 ships and a mobile fortress. (Outnumbering those 3G forces about 23 to 1)

KLM wrote:Now, the Explorer has 135K MDC main body, 6*10.000 shields, M13 sublight (DMB2 states that ships can reach 3 times their normal maximum speed with some risks and
with reduced manouverability). 4d6*1000 MD from laser batteries, twice per melee, plus cruise missile launchers, plus LRM launchers

... and all at substantially shorter ranges than the comparable Zentradi weaponry ranged against them, to say nothing of probably being outnumbered hundreds to one when you're talking about fighters.

KLM wrote:Which is not being generous to the 3Galaxies.

Actually, it's pretty fair... at least, based on Super Dimension Fortress Macross and Robotech, as shall now explain:

KLM wrote:DMB3, on page 104 mention that the 3Galactic ships are smaller and have more advanced targeting systems.

More advanced than what? In the animation, we clearly see the Zentradi are capable of astonishing feats of accuracy at ranges of hundreds of thousands of miles... that's really the reason the ranges are listed the way they are in Macross II. Fairly early on, we see them carrying out precision bombardments against targets hundreds of thousands of miles away, hitting surface targets around a grounded ship or destroying a fleet flying in close formation without hitting the ship at the center of that formation...

KLM wrote:Furthermore, the "sluggish approach while the Zentraedi having a turkey shot" scenario seems funny, but only applicable under specific circumstances - namely if the ships are in a gravity well.

Amusingly enough, at the ranges specified, the Zentradi don't exactly need to be right on top of the 3G ships to unleash hell on them... they can do it just as easily from thousands (or hundreds of thousands) of miles away, with the above-mentioned considerable precision.

Also, where folding inside a planetary gravity well is concerned, I would ask that you please remember that "impossible" and "inadvisable" are not the same thing. Macross II: Lovers Again (as well as other Macross titles) indicates that it's perfectly possible to fold into or out of a planet's atmosphere safely if your fold drive is working properly.

KLM wrote:First and foremost, if fold drives are not functioning (and it is still looks like so) main guns might as well not function if they draw power from the hyperspace.

As I and others have pointed out many times in this thread, whether that particular caveat actually applies to Zentradi ships is dubious at best, since Macross and Robotech fold drives operate on marginally different principles from 3G fold drives, and neither use any kind of antimatter power source.

KLM wrote:Second CAF (and TGE) doctrine calls for massed PA/fighter/robot (and even shuttle and frigate in the case of the TGE) attacks against capital ships.

Third, judging from the radius of the Aranea interdictor, CG drives can bring ships within a hundred miles of the opponent - ie. well within range.

At which point the 3G ships will learn the hard way that the Zentradi rely every bit as much on swarming tactics, and that the Zentradi are much better at it by virtue of having a huge advantage in numbers. Plus, I would expect that the 3G ships would probably regret getting that close fairly quickly... after discovering that they've placed themselves inside the range of a multitude of secondary weapons systems on each and every Zentradi ship, multiplying the firepower the numerically superior Zentradi fleet can bring to bear on them from simply excessive to downright astronomical.

Hi there!

Seto Kaiba wrote:

KLM wrote:Now, the Explorer has 135K MDC main body, 6*10.000 shields, M13 sublight (DMB2 states that ships can reach 3 times their normal maximum speed with some risks and
with reduced manouverability). 4d6*1000 MD from laser batteries, twice per melee, plus cruise missile launchers, plus LRM launchers

... and all at substantially shorter ranges than the comparable Zentradi weaponry ranged against them, to say nothing of probably being outnumbered hundreds to one when you're talking about fighters.

(...)

KLM wrote:DMB3, on page 104 mention that the 3Galactic ships are smaller and have more advanced targeting systems.

More advanced than what? In the animation, we clearly see the Zentradi are capable of astonishing feats of accuracy at ranges of hundreds of thousands of miles... that's really the reason the ranges are listed the way they are in Macross II. Fairly early on, we see them carrying out precision bombardments against targets hundreds of thousands of miles away, hitting surface targets around a grounded ship or destroying a fleet flying in close formation without hitting the ship at the center of that formation...

And in deck plans there is a table for hitting small targets - according to the DMB3 table 3G ships can hit smaller ships with more precision.

KLM wrote:Furthermore, the "sluggish approach while the Zentraedi having a turkey shot" scenario seems funny, but only applicable under specific circumstances - namely if the ships are in a gravity well.

Amusingly enough, at the ranges specified, the Zentradi don't exactly need to be right on top of the 3G ships to unleash hell on them... they can do it just as easily from thousands (or hundreds of thousands) of miles away, with the above-mentioned considerable precision.

This would mean that the 3G forces in question just sit there, waiting for those barrages to arrive, instead of hitting the FTL.

KLM wrote:First and foremost, if fold drives are not functioning (and it is still looks like so) main guns might as well not function if they draw power from the hyperspace.

As I and others have pointed out many times in this thread, whether that particular caveat actually applies to Zentradi ships is dubious at best, since Macross and Robotech fold drives operate on marginally different principles from 3G fold drives, and neither use any kind of antimatter power source.

Remember what I wrote about anti-matter? Or can you explain, why the Altess for example do not use fold drives?

KLM wrote:Second CAF (and TGE) doctrine calls for massed PA/fighter/robot (and even shuttle and frigate in the case of the TGE) attacks against capital ships.

Third, judging from the radius of the Aranea interdictor, CG drives can bring ships within a hundred miles of the opponent - ie. well within range.

At which point the 3G ships will learn the hard way that the Zentradi rely every bit as much on swarming tactics, and that the Zentradi are much better at it by virtue of having a huge advantage in numbers. Plus, I would expect that the 3G ships would probably regret getting that close fairly quickly... after discovering that they've placed themselves inside the range of a multitude of secondary weapons systems on each and every Zentradi ship, multiplying the firepower the numerically superior Zentradi fleet can bring to bear on them from simply excessive to downright astronomical.

Don't get me wrong, but arriving into a formation, unleashing dozens (or in the case of larger formations) hundreds of missiles, set to "random missile assault" then
leaving via FTL... Then there is the question of closer ranged firepower being energy-based (in some cases).

Thinking it over, according to DMB13, pg11, it is possible without ever going under lightspeed - missiles fired and fighters launched simply drop back to normal space.
Under these circumstances it is only the question of having enough ammo (and maybe a disposable planet or two) for hit and run operations.

Now, anti-ship missiles of the ARMD's do 6d8*10 MD (270 on average), AM cruise missile do 4d6*100 (1400 on average), and usually are launched by the dozen.

There are also plenty of FTL capable fighters around, carrying cruise missiles - this means heavy damages for the Zentraedi.

Also, there is the quiestion of stealth technologies.

And again:

KLM wrote:This said, if all the 4+ million Zentraedi fleet arrives to the 3 Galaxies, even if one accepts all my points about
the lack of Zentraedi superiority, they would do quite a havoc. Kinda like if the German Hochseeflotte from 1916
suddenly appeared on British waters - sure they would be massacred, but not before doing some serious damage on
civilian ships and other assets.

Adios
KLM

This would mean that the 3G forces in question just sit there, waiting for those barrages to arrive, instead of hitting the FTL.

while i agree that missile barrages might take a while to get there..
Particle beams and Lasers shoot at close to the Speed of Light: 299,792/km per sec, Meaning it take s PBC or a Main laser less than a second to reach a target at Max Range.

KLM wrote:This would mean that the 3G forces in question just sit there, waiting for those barrages to arrive, instead of hitting the FTL.

Or, as Colonel Wolfe pointed out... the 3G forces in question wouldn't have to wait for those barrages to arrive. Remember, lasers are particle beams are relativistic weapons that operate at the speed of light or very close to it. At most, the 3G fleet would have to wait 1.07 seconds for the hundreds of millions of MD worth of incoming fire to reach them from 200,000 miles away... or .05 seconds for the RT2E Zentradi's shorter ranges. That's not really leaving them much (any) time to react... and we've seen evidence that lends a fair amount of support to their ability to fire immediately after defolding or even during the defold process.

(Incidentally, that's hundreds of billions of MD for a full-size fleet PER MELEE, going into the trillions depending how the fleet is laid out)

KLM wrote:Now, anti-ship missiles of the ARMD's do 6d8*10 MD (270 on average), AM cruise missile do 4d6*100 (1400 on average), and usually are launched by the dozen.

Ah, thank you... I was wondering when someone would bring that up. This is one of several areas where the Robotech RPG (2nd Ed.) inexplicably fails to line up with the universe it was based on. Both in the series and the new comics, the anti-ship missiles used aboard the ARMDs are shown to be weapons of mass destruction. Just one was sufficient to destroy an entire UEDF military base in Robotech: From the Stars #5, and the series has them as being able to bust up Zentradi ships with just one or two hits.

To be blunt, the RPG has GROSSLY underrated the ARMD's anti-ship missiles... and a more animation-accurate damage value for the RT 2nd Ed. RPG would be 6d8*500 MD or ten times that for M2.

I have to read through this thread later, but on first glance, I have to post this that came to mind when I read the title;

Corrupted Zentraedi. Demon-possessed, or just evil & willing to serve, with a few demon-powers (& obvious mutations).

Seto Kaiba wrote:

KLM wrote:This would mean that the 3G forces in question just sit there, waiting for those barrages to arrive, instead of hitting the FTL.

Or, as Colonel Wolfe pointed out... the 3G forces in question wouldn't have to wait for those barrages to arrive. Remember, lasers are particle beams are relativistic weapons that operate at the speed of light or very close to it. At most, the 3G fleet would have to wait 1.07 seconds for the hundreds of millions of MD worth of incoming fire to reach them from 200,000 miles away... or .05 seconds for the RT2E Zentradi's shorter ranges. That's not really leaving them much (any) time to react... and we've seen evidence that lends a fair amount of support to their ability to fire immediately after defolding or even during the defold process.

(Incidentally, that's hundreds of billions of MD for a full-size fleet PER MELEE, going into the trillions depending how the fleet is laid out)

That still means that 3G warships crew are sleeping. Not that even frigates can dodge starfighter attacks (well, at least have a chance) from a few kilometers, but a
funny thing, if I take Robotech book 3, pg.25, 3G cruisers - being smaller than 990ft - get an automatic dodge from Zentraedi Weapons.

But again: from your lack of detailed information, why Altess (for example) cannot produce or replicate a fold-drive (either type) I still think Zentraedi Fold Drives will be subjects
to malfunction.

Nothing said against 3G ships activating their CG drives to get on the midst of Zentraedi fleet (remember, those ships can fight FTL, both by dropping missiles back to
"realspace" and intercept each other on FTL speeds (that, by DMB13 requires approaching each other within a few dozen meters in FTL). Now, a frigate or even a cruiser
would be perfectly able to hide behind a Zentraedi ship, using it as a shield, not to mention fighters, PA and giant robots.
On the swarming department, 3G powered armor is vastly superior even to the "female power armor", first and foremost its MDC is greater (by 50-100%) while its weight (therefore armor
thickness) is about one hundredth (1%) of the aforementioned stuff.

KLM wrote:Now, anti-ship missiles of the ARMD's do 6d8*10 MD (270 on average), AM cruise missile do 4d6*100 (1400 on average), and usually are launched by the dozen.

Ah, thank you... I was wondering when someone would bring that up. This is one of several areas where the Robotech RPG (2nd Ed.) inexplicably fails to line up with the universe it was based on. Both in the series and the new comics, the anti-ship missiles used aboard the ARMDs are shown to be weapons of mass destruction. Just one was sufficient to destroy an entire UEDF military base in Robotech: From the Stars #5, and the series has them as being able to bust up Zentradi ships with just one or two hits.

To be blunt, the RPG has GROSSLY underrated the ARMD's anti-ship missiles... and a more animation-accurate damage value for the RT 2nd Ed. RPG would be 6d8*500 MD or ten times that for M2.

Now, DMB13 states that AM cruise missile are rated for 1Mt (4d6*100 MD), nuclear (fusion) missiles for 500kt (2d6*100 MD), so 6d8*10 MD for those anti-ship missiles is about 20kt - about
the yield of the Fat Man, detonated over Nagasaki. That nicely qualifies as WMD.

Funny thing, if one takes the Rifts SB4: Coalition Navy pg. 48, where 200kt Tomahawks are rated for 3d4*100MD (and a much-much larger blast radius).

Rewriting Robotech stats without thinking over 3Galactic statistics is kinda funny too.

Adios
KLM

if I take Robotech book 3, pg.25, 3G cruisers - being smaller than 990ft - get an automatic dodge from Zentraedi Weapons.

is this in the old or new RPG? being the OLD RPG is no longer Official since the new RPG got printed.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

if I take Robotech book 3, pg.25, 3G cruisers - being smaller than 990ft - get an automatic dodge from Zentraedi Weapons.

is this in the old or new RPG? being the OLD RPG is no longer Official since the new RPG got printed.

The old one, where the Zentraedi ships had the "destroys everything" main gun (not in 2nd ed. Macross SB).

But if you stick to the Rules as Written (are you?) then the Zentraedi ships cover about 140-180 parsecs in 10 days, which makes them easy pickings for 3G craft and do not have
the dreaded "destroys everything" particle beams - go ahead.

Oh, and since there are no "new" rules for spaceships, they have a -1 penalty to hit for every 50 mph beyond 20 mph, making starship combat easy (roll to hit, anything besides a natural 20 is a miss).

Thank you.

Adios
KLM

KLM wrote: The old one, where the Zentraedi ships had the "destroys everything" main gun (not in 2nd ed. Macross SB).

only 1 Zent Hull carries the Heavy PCB. the Monitor whihc may not be detailed in the new RPG yet.

But if you stick to the Rules as Written (are you?) then the Zentraedi ships cover about 140-180 parsecs in 10 days, which makes them easy pickings for 3G craft

where do you get 10 days from? in the Book?

do not have the dreaded "destroys everything" particle beams - go ahead.

if All Zent Hulls are detailed in the new RPG, I'd not have an issue but are they?

Oh, and since there are no "new" rules for spaceships, they have a -1 penalty to hit for every 50 mph beyond 20 mph, making starship combat easy (roll to hit, anything besides a natural 20 is a miss).

since were dealing with Millions of Ships.... 5% of several Million ships hitting per Melee attack... is 240,000 ships hitting per Melee. (and all of them Crits too!)
but Phase world has Space combat rules that work for the debate? right?

Hi there!

Colonel Wolfe wrote:only 1 Zent Hull carries the Heavy PCB. the Monitor whihc may not be detailed in the new RPG yet.

Where do you get this information? From the official 2nd edition? Nope.

From the 1st ed? Nope, since in it both the flagships and the destroyers had it.

From the series? Nope, same as above.

So?

As a friendly reminder, you are still to explain why the Altess or the Dominators do not use fold drives (since they do not rely on AM and are the technologically most advanced civilisation),
instead of posting funny pictures.

Adios
KLM

KLM wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:only 1 Zent Hull carries the Heavy PCB. the Monitor whihc may not be detailed in the new RPG yet.

From the series? Nope, same as above.

hmm, interestng I never see the Hull of the Flag Ship break apart to fire the Particle beam canon. nor the Destroyer... The only ship we see wiht a Reflex-style Heavy Particle beam canon is the Monitor

As a friendly reminder, you are still to explain why the Altess or the Dominators do not use fold drives (since they do not rely on AM and are the technologically most advanced civilisation),
instead of posting funny pictures.

um, Lets avoid getting personal and start Demanding proof........ especially demanding proof of a Negative, which is a huge logical fallacy.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

KLM wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:only 1 Zent Hull carries the Heavy PCB. the Monitor whihc may not be detailed in the new RPG yet.

From the series? Nope, same as above.

hmm, interestng I never see the Hull of the Flag Ship break apart to fire the Particle beam canon. nor the Destroyer... The only ship we see wiht a Reflex-style Heavy Particle beam canon is the Monitor

As a friendly reminder, you are still to explain why the Altess or the Dominators do not use fold drives (since they do not rely on AM and are the technologically most advanced civilisation),
instead of posting funny pictures.

um, Lets avoid getting personal and start Demanding proof........ especially demanding proof of a Negative, which is a huge logical fallacy.

I'm kind of curious about that as well, since I've never seen anything that definitively said how Dominators get around. They could just as easily have some kind of long range teleportation-style drive, anti-gravity, or even a form of dimensional-skip drive that pops them into another dimension then pops them back into the Three Galaxies at a point of their choosing. As a top tier civilization they could easily have something unseen by everyone else much like the Intruders.

KLM wrote:That still means that 3G warships crew are sleeping.

Being caught by surprise by a defolding (and untraceable) Zentradi fleet is substantially more realistic than having every single fleet in the Three Galaxies being maintained on hair-trigger readiness constantly for years or decades.

KLM wrote:funny thing, if I take Robotech book 3, pg.25, 3G cruisers - being smaller than 990ft - get an automatic dodge from Zentraedi Weapons.

Whee... you've been caught cherrypicking from obsolete and no-longer-applicable sources again... so we can safely toss this illogical statement for two reasons: the book it comes from is no longer valid, and it doesn't match what's shown in the series.

KLM wrote:Nothing said against 3G ships activating their CG drives to get on the midst of Zentraedi fleet (remember, those ships can fight FTL, both by dropping missiles back to
"realspace" and intercept each other on FTL speeds (that, by DMB13 requires approaching each other within a few dozen meters in FTL).

But, at the distances involved, doing so would be nearly impossible to coordinate effectively for even the most advanced ships. Even if they were only going lightspeed, they'd be clear of the Zentradi within a couple milliseconds of engaging the drive (for RT2E) or within just a second (for M2). Plus, the logistics involved in carrying that off requires time, something an entire planet under Zentradi attack typically doesn't get.

KLM wrote:On the swarming department, 3G powered armor is vastly superior even to the "female power armor", first and foremost its MDC is greater (by 50-100%) while its weight (therefore armor thickness) is about one hundredth (1%) of the aforementioned stuff.

That's all well and good, but then you have to consider that the 3G powered armor is likely to be fighting while outnumbered hundreds or thousands to one. At that point, they'll be taking such a weight of fire that marginally-greater MDC won't matter.

KLM wrote:Now, DMB13 states that AM cruise missile are rated for 1Mt (4d6*100 MD), nuclear (fusion) missiles for 500kt (2d6*100 MD), so 6d8*10 MD for those anti-ship missiles is about 20kt - about the yield of the Fat Man, detonated over Nagasaki. That nicely qualifies as WMD.

Ah, thank you... but you may be slightly dismayed to know that you've actually supported my argument that the new RPG dramatically understated the destructive potential of those anti-ship warheads. Your math doesn't really work out for approximating the yield of those 6d8*10 MD missiles, since their maximum MD (480) is only 1/5th the maximum damage from that 1.0Mt warhead you described, so it would be 200kt, not 20kt. By your math, 6d8 MD would be 20 kilotons of nuclear blast potential. Clearly the values in DMB13 are a little bit broken... and as I've said before, to achieve the effects seen in the series, you'd need to have about 6d8*500 MD, or 6d8*5000 against M2 Zentradi ships. By your DMB13 scalings, that's 20Mt MINIMUM, or 200Mt for M2. (Neither would be at all out of the question for an anti-ship reaction warhead in terms of yield by Macross standards, mind you... in fact, neither even comes close to the highest explicitly-stated yield)

Since the RT 2nd Ed. RPG borrows HEAVILY from Macross sources, I see no significant problems in drawing on the animation source materials to make my point. The official information from the source materials makes it fairly clear that a 20kt yield would be pathetically small for reaction ordinance. So low, in fact, that 20kt is the lowest available yield on humanity's first anti-ship reaction warhead. Even the ones carried on fighters and destroids have more punch than that.

KLM wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:only 1 Zent Hull carries the Heavy PCB. the Monitor whihc may not be detailed in the new RPG yet.

Where do you get this information? From the official 2nd edition? Nope.

From the 1st ed? Nope, since in it both the flagships and the destroyers had it.

From the series? Nope, same as above.

Actually... he did get it from the series. This class of ship is, in fact, seen using such a weapon no less than twice in the course of the original Macross series (AKA the Macross Saga)... once in Ep27, and once in Ep36.

The reason that the Robotech RPG's "1st Ed." listed the Zentradi fleet command ships as having those weapons as well is because the writers of the book apparently didn't know that the movie Macross: Do You Remember Love? had nothing to do with the Macross Saga of Robotech. Fleet command battleships do, in fact, possess a bow-firing beam cannon in the Do You Remember Love movie, and thus Macross II as well. Even the new edition of the RPG occasionally slips and adds something that has no business being there, like the cockpit line art on p56 of the 2nd Ed. Macross Saga sourcebook, which is from the DYRL (Block 6+) version of the VF-1 Valkyrie, not the Block 1-5 model that appears in the series.


EDIT: Not to nitpick or anything, but the page for the Zentradi "gunboat" on M3 has two pending corrections... the classname hasn't been sourced, and the correct term for that ship used in the official art books and Macross Chronicle is "gun destroyer", as in a destroyer-type craft whose armament consists of gun emplacements rather than missiles.


EDIT #2: I just realized how completely stupid those DMB13 nuclear weapons yield damage numbers are... scaled properly, four rounds from the VF-1's GU-11 gunpod carries the same destructive potential as a 20kt nuclear device. There's something PROFOUNDLY WRONG HERE.

interesting note:

FTP Propulsion, pg 152 Phase world
... Other Cultures of the Megaverse have developed Space-fold-drives, but this system has alot of Risks. for reasons unknown, Space-fold-Drives are very likely to malfunction in the Three Galaxies....

unfortunately for this little factoid... Robotech 2nd Ed. Ships have Hyperspace Fold Drives...not Simple Space-fold Drives.

Hi there!

Nightmask wrote:I'm kind of curious about that as well, since I've never seen anything that definitively said how Dominators get around.

They are using a "hyper pipe wormhole" as per DMB13 (there was and maybe is a preview topic of DMB13 detailing their star fortresses)
which is probably the same as the quantum wormhole drive from DMB6.

Adios
KLM

KLM wrote:Hi there!

Nightmask wrote:I'm kind of curious about that as well, since I've never seen anything that definitively said how Dominators get around.

They are using a "hyper pipe wormhole" as per DMB13 (there was and maybe is a preview topic of DMB13 detailing their star fortresses)
which is probably the same as the quantum wormhole drive from DMB6.

Adios
KLM

Ahhh, okay. Thanks. So not any kind of fold system really.

KLM wrote:As a friendly reminder, you are still to explain why the Altess or the Dominators do not use fold drives (since they do not rely on AM and are the technologically most advanced civilisation),
instead of posting funny pictures.

How about this? Because the book says so, and the book trumps you. Just like the book says that they don't have Reflex Cannons, or a barrier system that can wipe out fleets when inverted, or a cloned army able to go from 30 foot to six foot and back, or for that matter why they don't have Intruders solid energy technology, or Rune Magic, Gene Splicer gene-engineering, or any of the other secret, unknown, and rare abilities spread across the Megaverse.

Your assertion that they have to have working fold drives for them to exist contradicts the rule books. Now how about you prove why you are correct despite contradicting the books, or explain why we should ignore the books and follow your homebrew?

Hi there!

Seto Kaiba wrote:

KLM wrote:That still means that 3G warships crew are sleeping.

Being caught by surprise by a defolding (and untraceable) Zentradi fleet is substantially more realistic than having every single fleet in the Three Galaxies being maintained on hair-trigger readiness constantly for years or decades.

IF suprise can be achieved, that is. Clairvoyance and FTL detection aside (which make "utraceableness" questionable),
how would a Zentraedi force gain information about any 3Galactic fleet? Especially that they are rather vulnerable to
social effects... Not to mention the supernatural department.

KLM wrote:funny thing, if I take Robotech book 3, pg.25, 3G cruisers - being smaller than 990ft - get an automatic dodge from Zentraedi Weapons.

Whee... you've been caught cherrypicking from obsolete and no-longer-applicable sources again... so we can safely toss this illogical statement for two reasons: the book it comes from is no longer valid, and it doesn't match what's shown in the series.

And if (and ever) the new Robotech stuff comes out, we can discuss it. BtW, this item (ie. ships under 990ft get an automatic dodge)
is in the Macross II Deck plans too.

Also, in the TV series we seen an ARMD (?) dodging fire - for a while.

KLM wrote:Nothing said against 3G ships activating their CG drives to get on the midst of Zentraedi fleet (remember, those ships can fight FTL, both by dropping missiles back to
"realspace" and intercept each other on FTL speeds (that, by DMB13 requires approaching each other within a few dozen meters in FTL).

But, at the distances involved, doing so would be nearly impossible to coordinate effectively for even the most advanced ships.

Disagreed. From the diameter of the Aranea-class I-field (60 miles, DMB13) one can judge how precisely 3G ships can engage FTL - this rather
small radius is frequently used to pull ships out of FTL. Also, see FTL combat in DMB13.

Especially if the ship in question is a Star Ghost fighter.

KLM wrote:On the swarming department, 3G powered armor is vastly superior even to the "female power armor", first and foremost its MDC is greater (by 50-100%) while its weight (therefore armor thickness) is about one hundredth (1%) of the aforementioned stuff.

That's all well and good, but then you have to consider that the 3G powered armor is likely to be fighting while outnumbered hundreds or thousands to one. At that point, they'll be taking such a weight of fire that marginally-greater MDC won't matter.

That presumes that Zentraedi will move in fleets of millions or more, with deployed fighters/PA. Which again rises the question, how they gain
information...

KLM wrote:Now, DMB13 states that AM cruise missile are rated for 1Mt (4d6*100 MD), nuclear (fusion) missiles for 500kt (2d6*100 MD), so 6d8*10 MD for those anti-ship missiles is about 20kt - about the yield of the Fat Man, detonated over Nagasaki. That nicely qualifies as WMD.

Ah, thank you... but you may be slightly dismayed to know that you've actually supported my argument that the new RPG dramatically understated the destructive potential of those anti-ship warheads. Your math doesn't really work out for approximating the yield of those 6d8*10 MD missiles, since their maximum MD (480) is only 1/5th the maximum damage from that 1.0Mt warhead you described, so it would be 200kt, not 20kt.

Sorry, my mistake.

Clearly the values in DMB13 are a little bit broken...

Damagewise I guess they are rather good in terms of MDC/kiloton - nukes are suprisingly inefficient taking out armored targets
(see the german cruiser Prinz Eugen - she survived two nukes in Operation Crossroads). It is their range and more importantly
blast radius - especially in atmosphere) which is hideously off.

and as I've said before, to achieve the effects seen in the series, you'd need to have about 6d8*500 MD, or 6d8*5000 against M2 Zentradi ships.

Yepp, but this would mean raising AM warhead damages too. After all, not many things are more destructive than anti-matter.

KLM wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:only 1 Zent Hull carries the Heavy PCB. the Monitor whihc may not be detailed in the new RPG yet.

Where do you get this information? From the official 2nd edition? Nope.

From the 1st ed? Nope, since in it both the flagships and the destroyers had it.

From the series? Nope, same as above.

Actually... he did get it from the series. This class of ship is, in fact, seen using such a weapon no less than twice in the course of the original Macross series (AKA the Macross Saga)... once in Ep27, and once in Ep36.

And in Blind Game (or near that episode) we can see a Zentraedi ship firing a P-beam on the SDF-1's tower/bridge, without the bow
opening. Khyron refers that ship as a destroyer.

More importantly, Colonel Wolfe, in his infinite wisdom once denies the "one fold, 10 day" issue saying, that is not in the book, then he
appearantly takes another piece of information from the series as a "fact".

Even the new edition of the RPG occasionally slips and adds something that has no business being there, like the cockpit line art on p56 of the 2nd Ed. Macross Saga sourcebook, which is from the DYRL (Block 6+) version of the VF-1 Valkyrie, not the Block 1-5 model that appears in the series.

Errr.... That is serious on Your side

--------

Colonel Wolfe wrote:interesting note:

FTP Propulsion, pg 152 Phase world
... Other Cultures of the Megaverse have developed Space-fold-drives, but this system has alot of Risks. for reasons unknown, Space-fold-Drives are very likely to malfunction in the Three Galaxies....

unfortunately for this little factoid... Robotech 2nd Ed. Ships have Hyperspace Fold Drives...not Simple Space-fold Drives.

And if there is no such thing the that dimension as hyperspace, Robotech Hyperspace Fold Drives are.... Useless?

- - - - -

Sgt Anjay wrote:How about this? Because the book says so, and the book trumps you.

Not bad from an eight year old. So, the books say fold drives do not operate in the 3Galaxies, blame the Cosmic Forge.

Sgt Anjay wrote:Your assertion that they have to have working fold drives for them to exist contradicts the rule books. Now how about you prove why you are correct despite contradicting the books, or explain why we should ignore the books and follow your homebrew?

How about reading? I am aware that no know power have reliable fold drives in the 3Galaxies. One of the reasons against
fold drives in DMB6 was that the antimatter makes fodl drives unstable. Now, since the Altess for example do not use anti-matter,
but a more advanced form of energy generator, they should have fold drive IF antimatter was the only problem.

But since they don't, I think there must be some other reason - which is the presence of Ley lines/unusually high PPE level/Cosmic Forge
(which IMO are the same problem).

Was it hard to understand or should I type slower for you?

Adios
KLM

KLM wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:How about this? Because the book says so, and the book trumps you.

Not bad from an eight year old. So, the books say fold drives do not operate in the 3Galaxies, blame the Cosmic Forge.

No, the "books" don't say that at all, that's what you are saying. DB2 mentions, in one sentence, that fold drives in the 3Gs are unreliable...but doesn't explicitly mention if that means 3G fold drives or fold drives from elsewhere. DB3, the follow up, then describes the Intruders, who have working fold drives among other technologies, and who also travel farther than is practical for mainstream 3G civilizations. First and foremost, there is no mention of fold mishaps, no mention of anything except how advanced and amazing Intruders tech is. Is DB3 superseding DB2? Maybe; if the events re:the Intruders hasn't occurred as of DB2, DB3 is easily classified as new information overwriting the earlier sourcebook. That happens all the time. Of course, the wording in DB2 is vague enough that it doesn't even directly contradict Intruders having working fold drives to begin with, so that might be an unnecessary step anyway. Then DB6 comes along, confirms DB3 (so even if DB3 wasn't enough to supersede DB2, there are now two books that do), and then clarifies that 3G civs, or at least mainstream ones, haven't gotten fold drives working, and gives another reason why that might be.

So then. Is there a reason to ignore 2-3 dimension books to follow your pet theory?

KLM wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:Your assertion that they have to have working fold drives for them to exist contradicts the rule books. Now how about you prove why you are correct despite contradicting the books, or explain why we should ignore the books and follow your homebrew?

How about reading? I am aware that no know power have reliable fold drives in the 3Galaxies.

Yes you are, you just aren't acknowledging it. Two dimension books, both more recent than the single, vague sentence you are clinging to, note that Intruders have working fold drives. Therefore, I am not going to be shy about it.

KLM wrote:One of the reasons against
fold drives in DMB6 was that the antimatter makes fodl drives unstable. Now, since the Altess for example do not use anti-matter,
but a more advanced form of energy generator, they should have fold drive IF antimatter was the only problem.

False. They don't have Intruder solid energy technology either, and that also comes from their own universe, and thus there is a possibility of them having come across it. That's the situation as per the books. Until every race you mention has Intruder solid energy technology (and its explicit that no one but the Intruders does), then your argument falls apart. If they don't have the Intruder solid energy tech we know they have access to, there's no reason for them to have Intruder fold drives either, which makes it even less likely they have fold drives with an extra-dimensional origin, like those of Robotech which are powered by something as exotic as protoculture.

KLM wrote:And in Blind Game (or near that episode) we can see a Zentraedi ship firing a P-beam on the SDF-1's tower/bridge, without the bow
opening. Khyron refers that ship as a destroyer.

asummptions assumptions assumptions... so little fact.
um, there isnt a single Monitor Hull among the Ships firing in Blind Game, and we don't see any Hulls split for a Super-Heavy Reflex Canon to fire. The Destroyer moves and uses the Forward mounted Heavy Anti-ship particle canon. not a Super-Heavy Reflex Canon. so yes the Ship the Fires is a Destroyer, and yes its a Particle canon... but its not a Super-Heavy Particle/Reflex Canon that would have vaporized the SDF-1 if it hit.

More importantly, Colonel Wolfe, in his infinite wisdom once denies the "one fold, 10 day" issue saying, that is not in the book, then he
appearantly takes another piece of information from the series as a "fact".

please, lets not start Flame baiting by making personal insults. I am not Cherry picking my information sources.
in the SHOW :Lisa says 10 days have passed, during a Trip we have no infomration about (distance, number of folds speed).
in the RPG: The Ships can fold max Range of 180 parsec, and give no information on time Dilation, or Speed or how long it takes.
The Show deals only Time Dilation. but no Distance or Speed
the RPG only deals with Distance. but no Time or Speed.
Time Dialation =/= Distance...
now if Lisa had said how far they folded, then ti might be more accurate....
Speed is equal to the change in distance over the change in time, or V = D/T where V is speed, D is distance and T is time.
both sources give 1 piece of the equation, but lack the needed parts to make a fair comparison. making a Flawed assumption based off 2 sources who give incomplete information is bad form.

--------

And if there is no such thing the that dimension as hyperspace, Robotech Hyperspace Fold Drives are.... Useless?

They work perfectly fine in the Robotech RPG, and nothing i can find in a Phase world book says that Hyperspace doesn't exist. or that Hyperspace folding doesn't work. only Space fold system are likely to malfunction.

- - - - -

So, the books say fold drives do not operate in the 3Galaxies, blame the Cosmic Forge.

Where in a Phase wolrd book is is said that they don't Function at all???????

KLM wrote:Hi there!

Seto Kaiba wrote:

KLM wrote:That still means that 3G warships crew are sleeping.

Being caught by surprise by a defolding (and untraceable) Zentradi fleet is substantially more realistic than having every single fleet in the Three Galaxies being maintained on hair-trigger readiness constantly for years or decades.

IF suprise can be achieved, that is. Clairvoyance and FTL detection aside (which make "utraceableness" questionable),
how would a Zentraedi force gain information about any 3Galactic fleet? Especially that they are rather vulnerable to
social effects... Not to mention the supernatural department.

Clairvoyance isn't anywhere close to that effective in warning you about anything, if it were you wouldn't see the various surprise attacks happening all over the place. Detection of FTL movement is also worthless against something like a fold drive because they aren't traveling through space, they're skipping over it. The ships actually sit relatively still when triggering a fold event, and skip across the intervening space, there is no ship to detect coming at you like a CG-drive. So yes the ships are effectively untraceable and capable of appearing with great surprise, as they can only be picked up when defolding by the gravity-wave distortions created as local space is warped heralding their imminent arrival.

Hey guys... it's gettin' kind of hostile in here again. Let's please take five and chill out, so we don't have the mods in here dispensing threats of banhammering. kthx.

KLM wrote:IF suprise can be achieved, that is. Clairvoyance and FTL detection aside (which make "utraceableness" questionable), how would a Zentraedi force gain information about any 3Galactic fleet? Especially that they are rather vulnerable to social effects... Not to mention the supernatural department.

Clairvoyance is kind of dubious... would it even work if they object they're trying to scry the circumstances of isn't in the material universe at the time? For the same reason, whatever a 3G ship uses to detect the resident variant of FTL technology is unlikely to detect a ship via Macross style folding since the ship isn't in the material universe during transit.

KLM wrote:And if (and ever) the new Robotech stuff comes out, we can discuss it. BtW, this item (ie. ships under 990ft get an automatic dodge) is in the Macross II Deck plans too.

Also, in the TV series we seen an ARMD (?) dodging fire - for a while.

... and, in a turn of events that I'm sure comes as a surprise to nobody, that still doesn't line up with the series, where the Zentradi repeatedly display the ability to hit targets far smaller than 990ft (301.75m) with great precision at extremely long distances (~280,000 kilometers or more).

KLM wrote:

and as I've said before, to achieve the effects seen in the series, you'd need to have about 6d8*500 MD, or 6d8*5000 against M2 Zentradi ships.

Yepp, but this would mean raising AM warhead damages too. After all, not many things are more destructive than anti-matter.

Antimatter's a tricky affair no matter what... especially since the size of a containment unit for it for weaponized use is usually going to mean that the warhead itself is fairly small. The rate at which the mass of antimatter can pair-annihilate with matter (which decreases with the corresponding increase in warhead size) can also diminish the effect of the annihilation reaction as an instantaneous blast. Reaction warheads in Macross enjoy a number of significant advantages over normal nuclear fusion weapons, not the least of which being a much-increased destructive potential.

KLM wrote:And in Blind Game (or near that episode) we can see a Zentraedi ship firing a P-beam on the SDF-1's tower/bridge, without the bow opening. Khyron refers that ship as a destroyer.

An odd dialogue choice, to be sure... since said ship is, in point of fact, not a destroyer at all. Its official fleet operational role is as a command ship, and its prow canon isn't really all that powerful compared to the much larger converging beam cannons used by the Zentradi gun destroyers or the DYRL version of the fleet command battleship.

KLM wrote:More importantly, Colonel Wolfe, in his infinite wisdom once denies the "one fold, 10 day" issue saying, that is not in the book, then he appearantly takes another piece of information from the series as a "fact".

You're misconstruing what was said... the "180 parsecs" limit doesn't come from the series, and it wasn't "one fold, 10 days", it was one hour of fold travel equals ten days of real time outside the ship. Relative velocity cannot be established via that scene, since we lack the distance half of the distance/time equation. On the other hand, we do have distance and time from the Robotech Masters folding between galaxies, which is how we established the absolute lower bound as 25,000c+ earlier in this thread.

Sgt Anjay wrote:So then. Is there a reason to ignore 2-3 dimension books to follow your pet theory?

Actually, as it is shown in DMB13, noone uses fold drives, so ignoring my "pet theory" actually means ignoring 2 or 3 dimension books.

KLM wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:Your assertion that they have to have working fold drives for them to exist contradicts the rule books. Now how about you prove why you are correct despite contradicting the books, or explain why we should ignore the books and follow your homebrew?

How about reading? I am aware that no know power have reliable fold drives in the 3Galaxies.

Yes you are, you just aren't acknowledging it. Two dimension books, both more recent than the single, vague sentence you are clinging to, note that Intruders have working fold drives. Therefore, I am not going to be shy about it.

Just plain stupid. Nowhere it is stated that the Intruders use their fold drives without errors.

KLM wrote:One of the reasons against
fold drives in DMB6 was that the antimatter makes fodl drives unstable. Now, since the Altess for example do not use anti-matter,
but a more advanced form of energy generator, they should have fold drive IF antimatter was the only problem.

False. They don't have Intruder solid energy technology either,

And solid energy does not have to do anything with DMB6's explanation.

----
But let's play a bit.

Supposing, but not allowing that fold drives operate without problems in the 3Galaxies, an alien intrusion using these drives will be known 400 years in the future
via the Golgan Tachyonic Antitelephone. So, a Zentraedi Invasion is known by a few centuries before it happens.

This is quite a bit of advantage.

Also - see Sylnor class in DMB13 - technological data can be sent back from the future. So, if humanity on the level of the early 1990's (but lacking cell phones
for example) can successfully replicate the technologies on SDF-1 within a decade (including global unification) or so, how long would it take for 3Galactic powers,
with way advanced technology and access to telemechanics and similar powers?

Think over it.

Adios
KLM

Hi there!

Seto Kaiba wrote:

KLM wrote:IF suprise can be achieved, that is. Clairvoyance and FTL detection aside (which make "utraceableness" questionable), how would a Zentraedi force gain information about any 3Galactic fleet? Especially that they are rather vulnerable to social effects... Not to mention the supernatural department.

Clairvoyance is kind of dubious... would it even work if they object they're trying to scry the circumstances of isn't in the material universe at the time? For the same reason, whatever a 3G ship uses to detect the resident variant of FTL technology is unlikely to detect a ship via Macross style folding since the ship isn't in the material universe during transit.

As for Clairvoyance, it is a limited glimpse into the future, and as we saw it in the case of the Mechanoids and the Four Horsemen, can predict serious events coming from other
dimensions well before they happen.
Psilite technology furthermore allows any psionic individual to use this power and collect the information in computers (or provide the supervisor of the "Seer department" with Mentat-like
ability by combining Speed Reading, Total Recall and Clairvoyance to process this information), therefore eliminating much of the uncertainities of individual visions.

Of course, the smaller the event, the less psychics will receive visions - now, a Zentraedi planetary assault is not a small scale event.

As for detecting fold-drives, the bottom line is, that defolding ships ARE detected in a 10 ly radius. However, moving in other dimensions have the possibility to be detected
as Rift drives and/or by phase tech sensors.

Therefore a large scale assault (like Breetai's initial 200 some ship fleet arriving and up) will be known, possibly even before the Zentraedi decide for that
action, via Clairvoyance.

A small force or even a lone recon ship however will be detected by FTL sensors and has a good chance to be jumped (and intercepted).

KLM wrote:

and as I've said before, to achieve the effects seen in the series, you'd need to have about 6d8*500 MD, or 6d8*5000 against M2 Zentradi ships.

Yepp, but this would mean raising AM warhead damages too. After all, not many things are more destructive than anti-matter.

Antimatter's a tricky affair no matter what... especially since the size of a containment unit for it for weaponized use is usually going to mean that the warhead itself is fairly small. The rate at which the mass of antimatter can pair-annihilate with matter (which decreases with the corresponding increase in warhead size) can also diminish the effect of the annihilation reaction as an instantaneous blast.

As I see ,the problem seems to be reaction (annihilation or matter->energy conversion) speed, ie. the larger the amount of AM, the slower the reaction.
There are two answers for that problem - first, it is actually does not matter, whether a warhead explosion radiates away its energy in a picosecond or ten,
most of the time it is actually preferable to apply lower damage for a more prolonged period.
Second, if the slowness of the reaction is actually a problem, one can pack several containment units into the warhead and implode them simultaneously.

Of course, it would be more convenient, if Palladium would rework damages and MDC values (DMB13 - 500kt doing 2d6*100MD to a 450 feet radius in atmosphere vs.
SB4 - 200kt, 3d4*100MD to a 1000 feet radius... ), and weapon ranges too.

KLM wrote:More importantly, Colonel Wolfe, in his infinite wisdom once denies the "one fold, 10 day" issue saying, that is not in the book, then he appearantly takes another piece of information from the series as a "fact".

You're misconstruing what was said... the "180 parsecs" limit doesn't come from the series, and it wasn't "one fold, 10 days", it was one hour of fold travel equals ten days of real time outside the ship. Relative velocity cannot be established via that scene, since we lack the distance half of the distance/time equation.

Once again: if one refers to a ship class, that is in the series but "not in the book", the same person better not neglect other information from the series.

But more importantly, by taking information from both sources, with "the Book" overwriting the Series" method, then fold drives have a limited range per fold. Now,
the series show, that fold takes time - therefore in 10 or so days in realtime the ship covers maximum 180 parsecs.

Or we ignore/edit "the Book" or "the Series" - for example no Monitor exists before it is printed. Or (XOR relation to be exact ) no limit on fold drive range.

On the other hand, we do have distance and time from the Robotech Masters folding between galaxies, which is how we established the absolute lower bound as 25,000c+ earlier in this thread.

Are there any information that Zentraedi fold drives are as effective/fast (without protoculture) as the Master's drive? Otherwise it is the lower bound of the
Master's, not the Zentraedi.

Now, 25.000 c is a tad below 5 lys/h.

- - - -
But again - see that little thought-experiment on the end of my previous post.

Adios
KLM

KLM wrote:As for detecting fold-drives, the bottom line is, that defolding ships ARE detected in a 10 ly radius.

You're right, the Zentradi did detect a defold reaction from ten light years away... ten years after it happened.

KLM wrote:However, moving in other dimensions have the possibility to be detected as Rift drives and/or by phase tech sensors.

If, and only if, super dimension space were a sub-universe familiar to the makers that phase tech sensor system. Also, since the ship isn't technically moving at all, there wouldn't be a movement to detect, just a sudden and abrupt spike in gravity and some light as the ships emerged into normal space.

KLM wrote:Once again: if one refers to a ship class, that is in the series but "not in the book", the same person better not neglect other information from the series.

But, as is obvious from the text of the Macross Saga sourcebook, said class of ship was to be one of many covered in the now-suspended spaceships compendium book.

KLM wrote:But more importantly, by taking information from both sources, with "the Book" overwriting the Series" method, then fold drives have a limited range per fold. Now, the series show, that fold takes time - therefore in 10 or so days in realtime the ship covers maximum 180 parsecs.

Only if you assume that the information provided in the RPG is correct and has a basis in the series... the existence of that gun destroyer (not monitor) is a fairly prominent bit in the series, but never once is a distance limitation ascribed to the operation of fold drives. In fact, the opposite is true as per The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles. There is, in fact, no statement of the distance covered during the fold jump to Dolza's mothership during the Macross Saga, so there is no basis to claim that the 180 parsec figure is actually applicable, or that the distance Breetai's ship folded was 180 parsecs.

At this point, it seems worth mentioning that the official position of Harmony Gold is that in the event of contradictions, the series trumps all, therefore the approved method for using both would be "the series overwrites the book".

EDIT: And since the question's been raised via direct contact, an even more extreme policy regarding the primacy of the series should be exercised for Macross II, on the grounds that much of the RPG doesn't match the series. In point of fact, the books appear to have been written without any knowledge of the continuity and chronology of Macross II's universe.

Hi there!

Seto Kaiba wrote:

KLM wrote:As for detecting fold-drives, the bottom line is, that defolding ships ARE detected in a 10 ly radius.

You're right, the Zentradi did detect a defold reaction from ten light years away... ten years after it happened.

Now, 3Galactic sensors (military issue) pick up these timespace disturbances within 10 lys "realtime".

KLM wrote:However, moving in other dimensions have the possibility to be detected as Rift drives and/or by phase tech sensors.

If, and only if, super dimension space were a sub-universe familiar to the makers that phase tech sensor system.

The funny thing is, that Phase-tech replicastes the Phase Powers of Prometheans and Phase Mystics (sometimes with a spectacularly magnified
way, as in the case of Phase canons and P-drives). Now, as per DMB2, pg. 25. Prometheans detect dimensional anomalies, f.ex. astral travelleres
and dimensional pockets.
So, if there is a super dimension paralell to the dimension of the 3Galaxies, anomalies in it will be detected.

KLM wrote:But more importantly, by taking information from both sources, with "the Book" overwriting the Series" method, then fold drives have a limited range per fold. Now, the series show, that fold takes time - therefore in 10 or so days in realtime the ship covers maximum 180 parsecs.

Only if you assume that the information provided in the RPG is correct and has a basis in the series...

Not neccessarily, thought personally I agree - if there is a work of art (anime, movie, novel, etc) on which any RPG is based, most of the time this piece of art takes
priority (usually).

However, once one uses "the Book" as his basis of argument, he better stick to this line.

At this point, it seems worth mentioning that the official position of Harmony Gold is that in the event of contradictions, the series trumps all, therefore the approved method for using both would be "the series overwrites the book".

And it is particularly funny when the series overwrite the series

-----------------
Another issue: In "Viva Miriya" Breetai commands "the neutron canon" (singular) to be fired and after a single salvo numerous craft explode. This, with the targeting displays shown
a few seconds earlier suggest an area effect weapon system. Probably this was "RPG-ed" into a main "destroys everything" P-beam in the 1st ed and is rather missing from 2nd ed.

Adios
KLM

KLM wrote:Hi there!

Seto Kaiba wrote:

KLM wrote:As for detecting fold-drives, the bottom line is, that defolding ships ARE detected in a 10 ly radius.

You're right, the Zentradi did detect a defold reaction from ten light years away... ten years after it happened.

Now, 3Galactic sensors (military issue) pick up these timespace disturbances within 10 lys "realtime".

KLM wrote:However, moving in other dimensions have the possibility to be detected as Rift drives and/or by phase tech sensors.

If, and only if, super dimension space were a sub-universe familiar to the makers that phase tech sensor system.

The funny thing is, that Phase-tech replicastes the Phase Powers of Prometheans and Phase Mystics (sometimes with a spectacularly magnified
way, as in the case of Phase canons and P-drives). Now, as per DMB2, pg. 25. Prometheans detect dimensional anomalies, f.ex. astral travelleres
and dimensional pockets.
So, if there is a super dimension paralell to the dimension of the 3Galaxies, anomalies in it will be detected.

There's no reason that they'd be able to detect an anomaly in another dimension, they detect anomalies in their dimension which can include those moments when other dimensions intrude and even then they've got to have a fairly limited range otherwise they'd be inundated with so much information they'd never make sense of it all. They'd never detect fold drives in use except if nearby and only when the drive is directly warping space going into hyperspace or coming out, they aren't going to detect the ship while it's no longer in regular space. Just like they aren't going to detect rifts on Rifts Earth when they're in Phase World if the rift goes somewhere unconnected to the Three Galaxies.

KLM wrote:Now, 3Galactic sensors (military issue) pick up these timespace disturbances within 10 lys "realtime".

'k, but it doesn't do anything to chance the fact that the only space-time disturbance that fold drives (Macross-type) create is the gravitational spike that occurs when a ship is entering or leaving super dimension space. If all the dedicated sensors designed to detect folding ships in Macross can get is a few seconds warning before a ship defolds, then that's about all a 3G ship will get as well.

KLM wrote:Not neccessarily, thought personally I agree - if there is a work of art (anime, movie, novel, etc) on which any RPG is based, most of the time this piece of art takes priority (usually).

However, once one uses "the Book" as his basis of argument, he better stick to this line.

Granted, if one intends to build their argument primarily around "the book", then they ought to be using the book as their primary source of material. However, the "powers that be" at Harmony Gold did lay down a fairly specific rule that the series has primacy over everything else. Macross II is even more cut-and-dry in this regard, which is why I haven't used the RPG for arguments about capability except in the few areas where it agrees with what's shown in the OVA and the rest of the timeline.

(Harmony Gold might wanna rethink their canon policy some day though... and probably will around the time they realize that it completely screws Shadow Chronicles over)

KLM wrote:Another issue: In "Viva Miriya" Breetai commands "the neutron canon" (singular) to be fired and after a single salvo numerous craft explode. This, with the targeting displays shown a few seconds earlier suggest an area effect weapon system. Probably this was "RPG-ed" into a main "destroys everything" P-beam in the 1st ed and is rather missing from 2nd ed.

Possibly, but unlikely IMO. Given many other, similar errors in the "1st Edition" RPG, it seems most likely that the reason the Zentradi flagship was listed with a "destroys everything" big beam gun is because of the source material used to write the book. It's been explained the writers of the 1st Edition didn't get much help or info from Harmony Gold, and thus based a lot of the books around observation from the series and quick translations of art books they imported from Japan. Their choices of line art in several places leaves no doubt that they'd inadvertently picked up a number of DYRL publications instead of just stuff relevant to the Macross animation used in Robotech, and the Zentradi flagship does have that weapons system in DYRL.

Seto Kaiba wrote:[It's been explained the writers of the 1st Edition didn't get much help or info from Harmony Gold, and thus based a lot of the books around observation from the series and quick translations of art books they imported from Japan. .

And now we have the reverse situation, where HG is apparently holding up, for good or bad, the approval of new material(sorry, had to interject that grumbling note of dissent.. ).

being one side of the Debate only has "the book" as a source of canon, one better stick to "the book" for that side of the debate..

Breetia may Order a singular canon to Fire, but the Scene shows Numerous Point Defense turrets firing at the same area...
Robotech.com Lists the Flashship having:
6 x main particle cannon, four mounted on the corners of the nose, two on the upper forward hull. Weapons are intended for anti-ship engagements.
~200 x general purpose laser/particle beam turrets, scattered around the hull, for light anti-warship, orbital fire support, and anti-mecha duties.

The 6x Particle Canons Deal 1D10x 1,000 and 100 of the General purpose= lasers deal 1D10x 100 and the other 100 are useless 50 mile range lasers that deal 3D4 x 10....
(by the RPG)
at 60,000 Miles the Ship can put out 6D10 x 1,000 (avg 35,000 MDC per round)
at 11,000 Miles add 2 times per round, 100D10 x 100 (or 1D10 x 10,000)/ 55,0000 more avg Damage total of 145,000 mdc per round)

and this is 100x the Range of the Protectors Main gun, in a ship that has x2.5 the intra-solar space movement speed.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:being one side of the Debate only has "the book" as a source of canon, one better stick to "the book" for that side of the debate..

Breetia may Order a singular canon to Fire, but the Scene shows Numerous Point Defense turrets firing at the same area...
Robotech.com Lists the Flashship having:
6 x main particle cannon, four mounted on the corners of the nose, two on the upper forward hull. Weapons are intended for anti-ship engagements.
~200 x general purpose laser/particle beam turrets, scattered around the hull, for light anti-warship, orbital fire support, and anti-mecha duties.

The 6x Particle Canons Deal 1D10x 1,000 and 100 of the General purpose= lasers deal 1D10x 100 and the other 100 are useless 50 mile range lasers that deal 3D4 x 10....
(by the RPG)
at 60,000 Miles the Ship can put out 6D10 x 1,000 (avg 55,000 MDC per round)
at 11,000 Miles add 2 times per round, 100D10 x 100 (or 1D10 x 10,000)/ 55,0000 more avg Damage total of 165,000 mdc per round)

and this is 100x the Range of the Protectors Main gun, in a ship that has x2.5 the intra-solar space movement speed.

"You can run, but you can't hide....at least not before we shoot you in the back."

Colonel Wolfe wrote:being one side of the Debate only has "the book" as a source of canon, one better stick to "the book" for that side of the debate..

Breetia may Order a singular canon to Fire, but the Scene shows Numerous Point Defense turrets firing at the same area...
Robotech.com Lists the Flashship having:
6 x main particle cannon, four mounted on the corners of the nose, two on the upper forward hull. Weapons are intended for anti-ship engagements.
~200 x general purpose laser/particle beam turrets, scattered around the hull, for light anti-warship, orbital fire support, and anti-mecha duties.

http://rtsurfer.110mb.com/sequences/neu ... n_VM_3.JPG
http://rtsurfer.110mb.com/sequences/neu ... n_VM_4.JPG

As you can see from the pictures above, the ship fires, all weapons targeting a single point (or a small area) then the explosions cover
a way greater slice of space.

- - -

As for Protector vs. Zentraedi flagship, the former will survive a first salvo by its shileds alone, no matter how many hits it actually takes
and how many of them are glancing blows, then hit the FTL - or even before it. The problem is, how the Zentraedi get into firing range, except when
3G ships are caught in a gravitiy well of a planet?

Or a more general question - again - how Zentraedi get any information about 3Galactic fleets (without "micronian contamination" ) ?

Another more general question, that if the problem with the fold drives is the antimatter (and as it looks like several power blocks are
experimenting with it), what do you say to a player scientist (or especially a techno-wizard starship engineer), who tries to feed it
from a fusion reactor?

Adios
KLM

Hi there!

Nightmask wrote:There's no reason that they'd be able to detect an anomaly in another dimension, they detect anomalies in their dimension which can include those moments when other dimensions intrude and even then they've got to have a fairly limited range otherwise they'd be inundated with so much information they'd never make sense of it all.

Luckily forthe Promethean, their racial ability is limited in range.

This however does not have to limit P-tech instruments (just see the Phase blast power and the phase canons).

Adios
KLM

taalismn wrote:

Seto Kaiba wrote:[It's been explained the writers of the 1st Edition didn't get much help or info from Harmony Gold, and thus based a lot of the books around observation from the series and quick translations of art books they imported from Japan. .

And now we have the reverse situation, where HG is apparently holding up, for good or bad, the approval of new material(sorry, had to interject that grumbling note of dissent.. ).

's okay, you're definitely not the only one more than a little fed up with the current state of affairs. Seems like a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation to me.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:and this is 100x the Range of the Protectors Main gun, in a ship that has x2.5 the intra-solar space movement speed.

... and that's not factoring in the Macross II Zentradi, whose weapons deal a lot more damage and have far greater ranges as well. Either way, they're bringing the hurt.

KLM wrote:As you can see from the pictures above, the ship fires, all weapons targeting a single point (or a small area) then the explosions cover a way greater slice of space.

Definitely neither the first nor the last time in Macross that heavy shipboard weaponry was shown as being SO powerful that even a near miss could be enormously damaging. If you remember, the very first episode has the Macross automatically open fire on a pair of Zentradi warships, one of which is destroyed without ever actually being hit by the beam, after being torn to bits by just being close to the beam.

KLM wrote:As for Protector vs. Zentraedi flagship, the former will survive a first salvo by its shileds alone, no matter how many hits it actually takes and how many of them are glancing blows, then hit the FTL - or even before it.

Really quite uncontainable within the scope of the RPG's actual rules... where the Zentradi ships are perfectly capable of pumping out enough damage to collapse the protector's shield and deplete its main body MDC in a single melee.

KLM wrote:Or a more general question - again - how Zentraedi get any information about 3Galactic fleets (without "micronian contamination" ) ?

It's actually a lot less of an issue than you think it is, particularly where Macross (and Macross II in particular) is concerned. On more than one occasion, the Zentradi have displayed the ability to train their troops to be resistant to culture shock tactics, as well as possible non-tactical exposure to miclone cultures. This is actually a fairly major plot point from one of the Macross II timeline titles that Palladium apparently wasn't aware of at the time they wrote the Macross II RPG. It's also worth nothing that Zentradi forces have rarely been known to possess communications-filtering systems capable of blocking a Minmay Attack-style tactic.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

KLM wrote:As for Protector vs. Zentraedi flagship, the former will survive a first salvo by its shileds alone, no matter how many hits it actually takes and how many of them are glancing blows, then hit the FTL - or even before it.

Really quite uncontainable within the scope of the RPG's actual rules... where the Zentradi ships are perfectly capable of pumping out enough damage to collapse the protector's shield and deplete its main body MDC in a single melee.

Especially if the CAF ships do the favor of exposing themselves to the full Zentraedi fleet, lined up, so every of their guns can fire.

Not that it wouldn't happen to a ship or even a task force once or twice - but it is more like an exception.

KLM wrote:Or a more general question - again - how Zentraedi get any information about 3Galactic fleets (without "micronian contamination" ) ?

It's actually a lot less of an issue than you think it is, particularly where Macross (and Macross II in particular) is concerned. On more than one occasion, the Zentradi have displayed the ability to train their troops to be resistant to culture shock tactics, as well as possible non-tactical exposure to miclone cultures. This is actually a fairly major plot point from one of the Macross II timeline titles that Palladium apparently wasn't aware of at the time they wrote the Macross II RPG. It's also worth nothing that Zentradi forces have rarely been known to possess communications-filtering systems capable of blocking a Minmay Attack-style tactic.

[/quote]

Actually ANYONE arriving into the 3Galaxies will have problems collecting these strategical information, cultures shock aside. Mind you, you arrive into a place where the powers
of the "biospheres" are in a cold (sometimes not so cold) war for centuries, with estabilished early warning systems, full time espionage and so on.

Now if someone outside the 3 Galaxies arrives, even if they can "blend in" how would they get information of military targets? Especially if they arrive with a large
task force (see antitelephone and clairvoyance)? Why would not they stumble into the Core (perhaps losing a great portion of their ships in the Threshold) and confront
the civilisations there?

And so on.

Adios
KLM

I just realized a possible problem for the Zentraedi fold systems and might be the main problem for conventional fold drives in the area, since the majority of ships make use of contra-gravity systems they're constantly distorting space, and in a sense creating negative gravity wells that are many times sharper than even a black hole creates (they must be to create FTL speeds). Since Zentaedi fold systems are so sensitive to gravity they may suffer problems trying to fold into or out of areas where active anti-gravity drives are at especially doing FTL maneuvers.

Hi there!

Nightmask wrote:I just realized a possible problem for the Zentraedi fold systems and might be the main problem for conventional fold drives in the area, since the majority of ships make use of contra-gravity systems they're constantly distorting space, and in a sense creating negative gravity wells that are many times sharper than even a black hole creates (they must be to create FTL speeds). Since Zentaedi fold systems are so sensitive to gravity they may suffer problems trying to fold into or out of areas where active anti-gravity drives are at especially doing FTL maneuvers.

Hehe, could be... Thought I am more inclined to think that this feature of in-game physics is a result of some ancient war (this might include the Forge and the One) and fold drives
operate well in that dimension (dimension as per Dimension Book) outside of the 3Galaxies, like a few hundred thousand light years outside their borders.

The reason for it, that the 3Galaxies is a megaversal hub which seems to be able to deal with major forces in the Megaverse like the Minion Wars, NE, Sploogies (in that case the most
prominent minion race of the Splugorth are the Kittanii, who proven themselves against the Mechanoids...).

On the other hand, Robotech (and Macross) Earth forces were able to close the technological gap within a decade (Grand Cannon, barriers, veritech, etc.) - from the tech level of the 1990's
or so.

This said, I rather blame the different physics of that dimension than human (noro, wolfen, Altess, etc.) inaptitude to develop these technologies.

Adios
KLM

Zentradie Don't use Fold or Space Fold Drives.. But Hyperspace-Fold Drives...

KLM wrote:Especially if the CAF ships do the favor of exposing themselves to the full Zentraedi fleet, lined up, so every of their guns can fire.

Which is not, strictly speaking, a necessity for the Zentradi to score a one-melee kill on a Protector or similarly robust ship. As we've said before, the Zentradi seldom go anywhere with less than 1,200 ships, and the typical fleet command battleship (M2 stats) has more than enough firepower to do the job without having to address its full arsenal, let alone a fleet of supporting ships.

KLM wrote:Actually ANYONE arriving into the 3Galaxies will have problems collecting these strategical information, cultures shock aside. Mind you, you arrive into a place where the powers of the "biospheres" are in a cold (sometimes not so cold) war for centuries, with estabilished early warning systems, full time espionage and so on.

Considering the only strategic information the Zentradi are likely to be interested in is how much force it's going to take to mop up a 3Galaxies force, they're likely to skip the idea of intelligence-gathering altogether and just show up unannounced with a fleet large enough that nothing that 3Galaxies force can throw at them will be cause for significant concern. This is particularly true for Zentradi fleets in Macross's universes, whose forces have usually included mobile fortresses armed with massive anti-fleet beam cannons which can wipe out fleets of tens or hundreds of thousands of ships in a single shot, use the smaller "destroys everything" guns from starships as its standard turrets, and can generally shrug off hits from that same caliber of weapon like it's nothing.

Nightmask wrote:I just realized a possible problem for the Zentraedi fold systems and might be the main problem for conventional fold drives in the area, since the majority of ships make use of contra-gravity systems they're constantly distorting space, and in a sense creating negative gravity wells that are many times sharper than even a black hole creates (they must be to create FTL speeds).

It's unlikely to be much of an issue, as the Zentradi themselves make use of gravity control systems for propulsion purposes as well as providing artificial gravity for their ships. If that part about creating "negative gravity wells" more intense than a black hole is true, then we can rest our case there, since the 3Galaxies factions would be causing natural disasters all over their territories by using such a stardrive anywhere near a planet. Macross fold drives can function just fine if folding into or out of a gravity well, it's merely inadvisable to fold into or out of a planetary atmosphere, and Robotech fold drives have shown that they can operate reasonably well in close proximity to an actual black hole.

hmmm Logic time:
The Protector in the 3G is said to be able to Devastate the entire surface of a planet.
The Zentradie do the same thing, but require 4.8 million ships.
The Protector has weapons that are way less advanced (Ranges are 1/100th on avg.), and weaker in General compare to the Zentradie. (over 135K avg MD per round for one ship v. around 40K per melee)

1 Protector = 1 Devastated Planet
4.8 Million Zent Ships = 1 Devastated planet.
Zentradie Weapons > Protector Weapon....Looks Like Planets in the 3G are way weaker than Planets in Robotech. since 1 Ship with weaker weapons can do what takes 4.8 million ships with more powerful weapons....

KLM wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:being one side of the Debate only has "the book" as a source of canon, one better stick to "the book" for that side of the debate..

Breetia may Order a singular canon to Fire, but the Scene shows Numerous Point Defense turrets firing at the same area...
Robotech.com Lists the Flashship having:
6 x main particle cannon, four mounted on the corners of the nose, two on the upper forward hull. Weapons are intended for anti-ship engagements.
~200 x general purpose laser/particle beam turrets, scattered around the hull, for light anti-warship, orbital fire support, and anti-mecha duties.

http://rtsurfer.110mb.com/sequences/neu ... n_VM_3.JPG
http://rtsurfer.110mb.com/sequences/neu ... n_VM_4.JPG

As you can see from the pictures above, the ship fires, all weapons targeting a single point (or a small area) then the explosions cover
a way greater slice of space.

- - -

As for Protector vs. Zentraedi flagship, the former will survive a first salvo by its shileds alone, no matter how many hits it actually takes
and how many of them are glancing blows, then hit the FTL - or even before it. The problem is, how the Zentraedi get into firing range, except when
3G ships are caught in a gravitiy well of a planet?

Or a more general question - again - how Zentraedi get any information about 3Galactic fleets (without "micronian contamination" ) ?

Another more general question, that if the problem with the fold drives is the antimatter (and as it looks like several power blocks are
experimenting with it), what do you say to a player scientist (or especially a techno-wizard starship engineer), who tries to feed it
from a fusion reactor?

Adios
KLM

Hey Chief, it seems the links are not working. You might want to double check them.
Also as for gaining political info, that's not as hard as one might think. Certain criminal elements would be very aware of the poloitcal situation as it could affect theri business. There's also Naruni, if you pay them enough they'll give you info on anyone. Then there's the old classic standyby either capture someone and inteerogate them or sent in an infiltration party (just not Rico, Konda and Bron).

Colonel Wolfe wrote:hmmm Logic time:
The Protector in the 3G is said to be able to Devastate the entire surface of a planet.
The Zentradie do the same thing, but require 4.8 million ships.
The Protector has weapons that are way less advanced (Ranges are 1/100th on avg.), and weaker in General compare to the Zentradie. (over 135K avg MD per round for one ship v. around 40K per melee)

1 Protector = 1 Devastated Planet
4.8 Million Zent Ships = 1 Devastated planet.
Zentradie Weapons > Protector Weapon....Looks Like Planets in the 3G are way weaker than Planets in Robotech. since 1 Ship with weaker weapons can do what takes 4.8 million ships with more powerful weapons....

I know. I've addressed that before. The Protector was poorly described in DB3. Alot of CJ Carella's stuff was horrible science...

The discription sounds more like what the manufacturers claim it can do, rather than what it actually can do. Oh well, the joys of a "megaversal" system...

Hystrix wrote:
I know. I've addressed that before. The Protector was poorly described in DB3. Alot of CJ Carella's stuff was horrible science...

The discription sounds more like what the manufacturers claim it can do, rather than what it actually can do. Oh well, the joys of a "megaversal" system...

no, CJ took the Description from the Imperial Class star destroyer in the Starwars Techincal journal, and made a Rifts version of it...

Hi there!

keir451 wrote:Hey Chief, it seems the links are not working. You might want to double check them.

Strange... But here is the website - one can ponder about the stuff written on the neutron canon,
but it is the pictures which are interesting:

http://rtsurfer.110mb.com/Neutron_cannon.htm

Also as for gaining political info, that's not as hard as one might think. Certain criminal elements would be very aware of the poloitcal situation as it could affect theri business. There's also Naruni, if you pay them enough they'll give you info on anyone.

Which raises the question, what Zentraedi can pay to NE...

Then there's the old classic standyby either capture someone and inteerogate them or sent in an infiltration party (just not Rico, Konda and Bron).

Capture who? A Royal Kreeghor, by micronised Zentraedi for example?

As for infiltration, it is tricky - local powers, with the knowledge of psi/magic spy on each other, without overwhelming results.

- - - - -
But lets play a bit. Zentraedi fleet arrives to the 3Galaxies - the Singing One (DMB12) opens his eyes, casts 4th dimensional
transformation (WB2), teleports into the flagship/fortress of the invading force and uses Telemechanics on the ship.

Plan a, fires the equivalent of the Grand Canon on the fleet and simultanously opens all doors
Plan b, uses the Manual Recall Beam to fold the fleet into a convenient black hole or similar "happy kind" phenomena

or the combination of the two.

Any ideas how to stop him or why he (or any 2nd stager, even some of the 1st stagers or a Temporal Raider) cannot
do it?
--------------------

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

Hystrix wrote:
I know. I've addressed that before. The Protector was poorly described in DB3. Alot of CJ Carella's stuff was horrible science...

The discription sounds more like what the manufacturers claim it can do, rather than what it actually can do. Oh well, the joys of a "megaversal" system...

no, CJ took the Description from the Imperial Class star destroyer in the Starwars Techincal journal, and made a Rifts version of it...

Actually, if one looks into contemporary military stuff, a 15 million ton Protector, armed with XXth century weapons can reasonably
devastate a planet (ie. bomb back into the stone age or even make it uninhabitable to anything less resistant than a roach).

So, I guess it is not the description, but the stats, which are wrong.

Adios
KLM

Colonel Wolfe wrote:1 Protector = 1 Devastated Planet
4.8 Million Zent Ships = 1 Devastated planet.
Zentradie Weapons > Protector Weapon....Looks Like Planets in the 3G are way weaker than Planets in Robotech. since 1 Ship with weaker weapons can do what takes 4.8 million ships with more powerful weapons....

Oh, I'm sure both are perfectly true within the context of their own settings... but so long as you've drawn a parallel to Star Wars, could you answer a question for me? Do any of the Three Galaxies books say how long it takes a Protector to devastate a planet like that? If they don't, then there's a common sense answer... the Protector needs more time to do the same job. The Zentradi, on the other hand, can use the benefit of their far more powerful weaponry and greater numbers to do in seconds what a Protector may need hours or days to do.

Hystrix wrote:The description sounds more like what the manufacturers claim it can do, rather than what it actually can do. Oh well, the joys of a "megaversal" system...

Occupational hazard of trying to maintain a RPG system with hooks to facilitate crossovers between original material and licensed games...

KLM wrote:Which raises the question, what Zentraedi can pay to NE...

Let's see... fuel, weaponry, overtechnology, biotechnology, cybernetics, raw materials, rare minerals, food, liquor, etc. Just leave out the "biotechnology" and "cybernetics" for the RT version, and change "overtechnology" to "Robotechnology". Not a bad haul... of course it wouldn't be out of the question for some Zentradi fleets in Macross to simply brainwash a prospective informant or spy and let him do the work at his own expense.

KLM wrote:Plan a, fires the equivalent of the Grand Canon on the fleet and simultanously opens all doors
Plan b, uses the Manual Recall Beam to fold the fleet into a convenient black hole or similar "happy kind" phenomena

Neither is really containable, particularly that second one... to paraphrase news monster Morbo: "MANUAL RECALL BEAMS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY! GOODNIGHT!"

KLM wrote:So, I guess it is not the description, but the stats, which are wrong.

Wait... wait... wait... weren't you going the other way with this sort of thing a couple of pages back? All that same, as I mentioned to Colonel Wolfe, neither necessarily has to be wrong, assuming the books never say how long it takes a Protector to do in a planet. The reason that parallel struck me was I remember having a very similar discussion about a single Star Destroyer being capable of destroying a planet's surface, but it taking several days... a feat the Zentradi can carry off in several seconds at their typical strength.

Hi there!

Seto Kaiba wrote:

KLM wrote:Which raises the question, what Zentraedi can pay to NE...

Let's see... fuel, weaponry, overtechnology, biotechnology, cybernetics, raw materials, rare minerals, food, liquor, etc. Just leave out the "biotechnology" and "cybernetics" for the RT version, and change "overtechnology" to "Robotechnology". Not a bad haul... of course it wouldn't be out of the question for some Zentradi fleets in Macross to simply brainwash a prospective informant or spy and let him do the work at his own expense.

Yepp, the bold ones. Then they copy the stuff and sell if to the powers of the 3Galaxies.

KLM wrote:Plan a, fires the equivalent of the Grand Canon on the fleet and simultanously opens all doors
Plan b, uses the Manual Recall Beam to fold the fleet into a convenient black hole or similar "happy kind" phenomena

Neither is really containable, particularly that second one...

Errr....

Why cannot a zentraedi ship fire on others? We seen it multiple times.

On the recall beam - something coordinates mass folds, odds are, that is a computer. Something which cannot
possibly resist Telemechanics (since the designers/programmers never encountered anything like it).

KLM wrote:So, I guess it is not the description, but the stats, which are wrong.

Wait... wait... wait... weren't you going the other way with this sort of thing a couple of pages back? All that same, as I mentioned to Colonel Wolfe, neither necessarily has to be wrong, assuming the books never say how long it takes a Protector to do in a planet.

There is a sentence in the main guns description "it can core a planetoid with a few shots" - so would expect that the gun leaves
sizeable craters.

Adios
KLM

KLM wrote:Yepp, the bold ones. Then they copy the stuff and sell if to the powers of the 3Galaxies.

Assuming they live long enough to do so... not a particularly likely outcome, being that the standard Zentradi procedure when dealing with a planet held by the enemy is to bombard it from orbit until even the cockroaches choke on the ashes. Then again, as I said, the ones from Macross always have the opportunity of resorting to brainwashing to get the job done, which neatly removes the opportunity for a double-cross.

(There's always the tried and true Zentradi information gathering tactic of "Let's just throw some expendable troops at them and see what they do." You have to admit, it's a pretty sound tactic when you've got trillions of troops kicking around, all of whom are expandable and all of whom can be quickly and easily replaced without having to spend time on training their replacements. Even losing a branch fleet of over 1,200 ships is barely a logistical papercut as far as Macross's Zentradi are concerned.)

KLM wrote:Why cannot a zentraedi ship fire on others? We seen it multiple times.

Because you're assuming these ships are operated by slaving fire control for the entire ship to a single computer... this ain't Star Trek, and no sane military (fictional or otherwise) would network vital systems together like that.

KLM wrote:On the recall beam - something coordinates mass folds, odds are, that is a computer.

Two problems... it's never used that way in Robotech, and there's no such system in the original Macross. The system that Robotech makes into the "manual recall beam" is nothing more than an extravagantly showy communications system... Britai and Exsedol simply didn't want Kamjin to be able to claim his radio was out, and say as much in the series.

(Oh that Kamjin... he's a funny guy.)

KLM wrote:There is a sentence in the main guns description "it can core a planetoid with a few shots" - so would expect that the gun leaves sizeable craters.

Okay, yeah... so, a SIGNIFICANT difference between the fluff for the ship and the stats for same. Since the main metric for comparing combat capability being used here is the stats in the RPG, we have to go with Colonel Wolfe's conclusion that planets in the 3Galaxies aren't nearly as tough as those of Macross or Robotech's Milky Way.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Wait... wait... wait... weren't you going the other way with this sort of thing a couple of pages back? All that same, as I mentioned to Colonel Wolfe, neither necessarily has to be wrong, assuming the books never say how long it takes a Protector to do in a planet. The reason that parallel struck me was I remember having a very similar discussion about a single Star Destroyer being capable of destroying a planet's surface, but it taking several days... a feat the Zentradi can carry off in several seconds at their typical strength.

yes, in the Star wars v. Zents topic, I aired on the side of Starwars, because Starwars has no "Offical" Palladium stats that make it 1/100th as advanced and about 1/4th as powerful in 1 on 1 discussions. but this is going to go way off topic, or re-ignite a debate somewhere else.. neither that i care about doing.
Fact is both Palladium products have stats for the Palladium system, which show 2 VASTLY different power levels, and claims of ability... if the Protector can accomplish the feat they claim, then a Flagship could do it more efficiently with its superior weapons.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

KLM wrote:Yepp, the bold ones. Then they copy the stuff and sell if to the powers of the 3Galaxies.

Assuming they live long enough to do so... not a particularly likely outcome, being that the standard Zentradi procedure when dealing with a planet held by the enemy is to bombard it from orbit until even the cockroaches choke on the ashes.

Since it took a decade or so to find one SDF, they will.

Then again, as I said, the ones from Macross always have the opportunity of resorting to brainwashing to get the job done, which neatly removes the opportunity for a double-cross.

Like how? Simple scenario: an Uteni salesman with a few Repo-bots as backup, organise a meeting with the micronised zentraedi. The
Uteni does not know the information needed. How do you capture them, without being suspicious? Without possible knowledge
how magic and psionics work?

KLM wrote:Why cannot a zentraedi ship fire on others? We seen it multiple times.

Because you're assuming these ships are operated by slaving fire control for the entire ship to a single computer... this ain't Star Trek, and no sane military (fictional or otherwise) would network vital systems together like that.

So, no Booby Trap as in ep1? No Sharon Apple incident? Yeah, right....

KLM wrote:There is a sentence in the main guns description "it can core a planetoid with a few shots" - so would expect that the gun leaves sizeable craters.

Okay, yeah... so, a SIGNIFICANT difference between the fluff for the ship and the stats for same. Since the main metric for comparing combat capability being used here is the stats in the RPG, we have to go with Colonel Wolfe's conclusion that planets in the 3Galaxies aren't nearly as tough as those of Macross or Robotech's Milky Way.

But then the manual recall system takes over the targeted ships helm and cannot be overriden.

Adios
KLM

Colonel Wolfe wrote:Fact is both Palladium products have stats for the Palladium system, which show 2 VASTLY different power levels, and claims of ability... if the Protector can accomplish the feat they claim, then a Flagship could do it more efficiently with its superior weapons.

On this, you and I are in complete agreement. (Mark your calendars kiddies, that ain't likely to happen again for a loooooong time )

Since the Protector is a Palladium original design rather than a (mis)representation of some mecha used in a licensed game book, the logical assumption is that the stats presented for the Protector ought to reflect the capabilities enumerated in the fluff. Based on that, any Zentradi force as statted wouldn't need to be bothered with bringing a whole fleet to blow up someone's planet... they could achieve the same more effectively than the Protector with just one ship.

KLM wrote:Since it took a decade or so to find one SDF, they will.

Uh... what show were you watching? Robotech never makes any mention of how long the Zentradi were looking for Zor's battlefortress before they finally located it. Likewise, in the original Macross the Zentradi were never looking for a specific ship, they were on a search-and-destroy mission looking for Supervision Army survivors when they detected the Macross's defold reaction and followed it to Earth. Beginning to end, the time it took for the Macross Zentradi to find the Supervision Army gun destroyer that became the Macross was only a couple hours including transit times.

KLM wrote:Like how? Simple scenario: an Uteni salesman with a few Repo-bots as backup, organise a meeting with the micronised zentraedi. The Uteni does not know the information needed. How do you capture them, without being suspicious? Without possible knowledge how magic and psionics work?

Simple solution: Miclone Zentradi shoot the repo-bots and abduct the salesman, run him through the brainwash-o-matic, and turn him loose to gather information for them. Who gives a flip about being low-key? These are Zentradi we're talking about... they're not a bunch who are big on subtlety, and they're not out to capture territory.

KLM wrote:So, no Booby Trap as in ep1? No Sharon Apple incident? Yeah, right....

Are you being serious when you ask that? I'm genuinely confused here... mainly because of the obvious logical problems with your assertion. The problems are threefold:

1. To point out the obvious, the booby trap was... well... a booby trap. It was a sabotaged system, set up to make the main converging beam cannon fire without an operator's input. The dialogue in that scene and its subsequent usage makes it very clear that such was NOT a normal operating condition for the weapon.

2. You're (knowingly) drawing a false parallel... neither version of the story makes the SDF-1 Macross out to be a former Zentradi ship.

3. The so-called Sharon Apple incident didn't concern an operating battleship. The Macross had long-since been retired from service and converted into the New Unified Army Command complex. Please note that the only systems the rogue AI showed any control of were already fully automated... the anti-air defenses and the orbital defense grid's remote gun turrets, both of which were under the control of the command center computer which Sharon was physically connected to.

KLM wrote:To be funny, the mile thick outer shell of the Dominator fortress has 7500 MDC per 5000 feet section.... Protector main guns do 2d6*1000 per shot...

To be even funnier, fairly half of the Zentradi fleet in the M2 RPG have "Destroys everything" guns with 200,000mi ranges that render MDC values meaningless, and their basic gun turrets deal 1D4 x 1000MD per shot, and tend to come in fairly large numbers.