Re: Armor questions.
Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 4:14 pm
It's absurd.
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say652 wrote:The light machine is mansize and able to use power armor, my original question was.
Can a 6'6" soft suit be worn under the heavy Deadboy or a hard exoskeleton.
The idea was uniform Borg soldiers in Stealth Power Armor, Use the exoskeleton to Armor up for heavy combat.
Instead of my opinion my opinion, this, this and this.
Check la libre and see what I am saying.
Just as easy to switch power armor suits, though the uniform force becomes like styled Power Armor.
say652 wrote:Japanese police officer.
NTSET Protector.
Vanguard Brawler.
Three Occs off the top of my head that allow full Conversion and piloting power armor.
Do you even World Book Bro.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:I don't think that body armor under power armor is acceptable.
Even piloting robot vehicles which are much bigger one doesn't wear EBA in there. They have special (Lighter weight) Flight suit type stuff.
Are you people honestly wearing MDC Uniforms under EBA armor, and then putting power armor on over top it in your games?
say652 wrote:https://youtu.be/X9v-UGWAQwc
Took pic of the book to prove this is simply flaming and your opinion.
Both have no place on the net.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:I don't think that body armor under power armor is acceptable.
Really depends on the "Power Armor" in question. The GB has a set of light EBA that you wear when you're piloting it.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Several other suits classified as Power Armor have the room to wear EBA under them - or rather, while piloting them - as you dont actually put your arms and legs into the arms and legs of the suit (Terror Trooper, Samson, Ulti-Max right off the top of my head) so you dont have to worry about one set of armor binding the other - you're just operating levels and foot pedals, which armor wouldn't interfere with.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
MOST PA, though - sure, i'd agree. Its meant to replace EBA, not go over it. Anything remotely form fitting or in which your arms and legs are in the arms and legs of the armor itself? Yeah, no way.Even piloting robot vehicles which are much bigger one doesn't wear EBA in there. They have special (Lighter weight) Flight suit type stuff.
Eh... no. A LOT of the Robots are roomy enough to wear EBA, and pretty much everyone has a set for their pilots.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
The CS uses a CS-made black-and-white pattern Huntsman with a custom skull helmet for it's robot pilots (its on the cover of CWC, and is detailed in the IAR-4 writeup)
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
, NG makes a specific EBA for Robot/Vehicle pilots (its in NG... 2? whichever one has the armor); and since the CS-made Huntsman is just... Huntsman, with a custom helmet, anyone could use that.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
The tanks and heavy vehicles, those guys are wearing CA-4 Heavy Armor, for sure. Plenty of space.Are you people honestly wearing MDC Uniforms under EBA armor, and then putting power armor on over top it in your games?
Yeah.. seems a little iffy to me too. Though the MDC fabric uniforms i dont really see a problem with under EBA.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote: The plain ones, not the semi-armored ones with concealed plates. But the plain clothes stuff, sure. Its just clothes. Says right in the descriptions that they are just as comfortable and wearing as clothes, so unless you're normally naked under the EBA...
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Pretty sure that's the armored flight suit type thing I was talking about not EBA. *Opens up RUE* Yeah they're listed as having light or medium EBA for when outside their glitter boy. There's still the pic for the "Pilot suit" but it's not EBA, the helmet's not enclosed if nothing else. Old style stuff with 25mdc
Ulti-max MAYBE and that's because it's not 'really' power armor. It's a little robot vehicle. Even then I'd maintain that EBA would be too bulky to be wore inside it while trying to pilot it. It'd be like trying to wear armor while flying a jet, but one that runs and jumps and such.
Most every OCC in rifts 'Gets' eba. That doesn't mean you wear it while you're trying to pilot something as difficult as bipedal or other combat robots. Some might have room, but it's not going to be easy.
Yes that's the GUNNER not the pilot. You might also notice.. he's not IN the robot when he's wearing the armor.
And a small note it's the CS knock off of the Urban Warrior, not the Huntsman.
The stuff NG Makes is what I was talking about when I mentioned the armored pilot suits.
And again most robo jockies (And power armor pilots) have non power armor for when they're OUT of their robots. That doesn't mean they're fully armored while In them.
I do. Eba is strapped to you tightly. It's -environmental- body armor. It has to form a full envriomental sea. Not easy to do when you're strapped in. Much less over an already thick layer of clothing.
It'd be like trying to put on a suit of armor over a firefighter's call out gear and trying to be able to move. You'd waddle around like the guys in those blow up sumo suits.
There's a difference between "underwear or a body glove" and full out MDC clothing under full out environmental body armor.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Pretty sure that's the armored flight suit type thing I was talking about not EBA. *Opens up RUE* Yeah they're listed as having light or medium EBA for when outside their glitter boy. There's still the pic for the "Pilot suit" but it's not EBA, the helmet's not enclosed if nothing else. Old style stuff with 25mdc
So its not EBA - but is larger and bulkier than some EBA (not all).
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Ulti-max MAYBE and that's because it's not 'really' power armor. It's a little robot vehicle. Even then I'd maintain that EBA would be too bulky to be wore inside it while trying to pilot it. It'd be like trying to wear armor while flying a jet, but one that runs and jumps and such.
Yes, a decent of the PA's fit that category though.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
You DONT put your arms and legs into the arms and legs of the Samson (called out in its description) but operate foot pedals for movement and levers for the arms; the Terror Trooper is the same way. There are two types of PA, one more common than the other - exoskeletal PAs (tight fitting, like a SAM, most of the new NG suits, etc) that are more common, and the "not quite a bot" PAs like the GB, Ulti-Max, Terror Trooper, Samson, etc, that have more room in them, where the pilot sits at controls.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Most every OCC in rifts 'Gets' eba. That doesn't mean you wear it while you're trying to pilot something as difficult as bipedal or other combat robots. Some might have room, but it's not going to be easy.
.. whats so difficult about piloting a robot?
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Its foot pedals and some levers or joysticks, neither of which are interfered with in any way by wearing Armor.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Almost every single of these robots have arms lockers for guns if the pilots/gunners get dismounted, but theyre getting out in their skivvies? I dont think so.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
And look at the size of the pilots compartment on most of the Robots (other than the very smallest ones like the UAR-1 which never made sense to me, as in the pic, the Grunt next to it is bigger than any part of the actual robot that a guy could sit in..) - they aren't cramped. Hell, you can fit half a dozen guys into a Spider Skull Walker, for instance. In armor. No problems.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Yes that's the GUNNER not the pilot. You might also notice.. he's not IN the robot when he's wearing the armor.
No, i notice he's not in the Robot in the illustration, not that he never wears his (very non-restrictive looking) armor when inside the robot.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
And if you're seriously trying to say "well, the GUNNER gets armor but the pilot.. SCREW THAT GUY."... yeah, not buying that.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:And a small note it's the CS knock off of the Urban Warrior, not the Huntsman.
My bad, there. I always get the weird fabricy-looking medium armors mixed up.
The stuff NG Makes is what I was talking about when I mentioned the armored pilot suits.
Its not an armored pilot suit, though, its full-up medium EBA.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:And again most robo jockies (And power armor pilots) have non power armor for when they're OUT of their robots. That doesn't mean they're fully armored while In them.
You're making an assumption that isn't supported by anything other than your opinion, when the very few (very few) sources we do have say or show them wearing them inside their vehicles - including the illustration for the NG pilots EBA, which shows him in a robot, wearing the armor (as do several of the other robot illstrations where the pilots compartment is visible - the pilots are armored).
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
I do. Eba is strapped to you tightly. It's -environmental- body armor. It has to form a full envriomental sea. Not easy to do when you're strapped in. Much less over an already thick layer of clothing.
You're assuming it's a "thick layer of clothing" - even if you're correct and it is, i assure you, the armor is meant to go over thick clothing.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
No one, CS or NG included, expects you to wear what amounts to a spandex suit under your armor and have to change into fatigues back at base.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
You wear your daily clothes under your armor, or its nearly useless.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:It'd be like trying to put on a suit of armor over a firefighter's call out gear and trying to be able to move. You'd waddle around like the guys in those blow up sumo suits.
.... you're trying to equate fatigues to firemans call out gear? (Which i have worn). Not even close, man.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:There's a difference between "underwear or a body glove" and full out MDC clothing under full out environmental body armor.
Lets say your assumptions and head-canon are correct and its only "jumpsuits" that fit under EBA.
'sokay, NG has you covered:
MH-500 Armored Jumpsuit. Entirely made of MDC fabric and padding.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:So if the space is that tight in a suit that's 10'5", it's going to be LESS in smaller suits.
Nothing to support them on. You swing your foot backwards to kick the pylon lever to deploy them.
It's a large bipedal machine that by actual phyics has a ton of problems even existing, but I know we're playing rifts so real science seldom has a place. Even in Rifts, piloting robots is not easy.
Only select people can even try,
and it takes dedicated training. Your question is akin to "What's so difficult about piloting a tank. It's just a vehicle".... yes... and no. Piloting a tank isn't easy
and it's just 'rolling'. It's not 10-50 feet tall. it can't 'trip' or stumble. it doesn't have a higher center of gravity. it doesn't get caught on power lines or tree branches and maybe fall down. It doesn't 'RUN' or "Jump".
piloting a robot is going to be a pretty complex operation.
heck people wreck piloting cars and bicycles all the time and they're not 'Hard'. Piloting a robot is going to be about 50-100 times harder than that
Armor restricts your movements
"Some foot pedals and some levers" lol is your robot from 1950s television? Captain Proton?
As for interference, yes there will be. Armor takes up space.
it makes you move in certain ways. it restricts you from moving in other ways. It's restrictive. Even good armor is. It's partially displayed in the movmenet penalties and what not but even that is enormously generous. (We're playing a RPG, noone actually wants REAL world stuff too much in a game it's a bummer))
I live in the UP of MI. (Nothern Gun, Represent!)) It gets COLD up here in the winter. -35 type cold. We still do things. go out and what not. Have you ever driven in a winter coat and gloves?
Much less restrictive than full body EBA I'm sure.
Driving is more difficult. (Not impossible.) but have you ever tried to change the radio station with gloves on? Not armored MDC gloves. Just normal gloves.
Try it out. Then imagine you're sitting in a bipedal giant robot trying to run and manuver and you're swiping at controll surfaces in full armor.
No. I'd imagine they're in flight suits or uniforms. Not 'skivvies'. But then I doubt robo jockies are getting out of their robots in the field just for giggles. If they do they're either shutting down the bot and doing stuff. where in they could don their armor then if needed. or evacuating a crashing bot.
Can you cite your sources on this? Where are you seeing pilots compartments on most robots? Page numbers please. Very seldom are such things shown and when they are they're typically plenty cramped.
OHHHHH... I'm sorry. You have an image of him inside the robot wearing the armor. My bad. On what page is that found, of which book? I'd like to check it out.
Pilots and gunners are different. Pilots have to drive and need to be able to move more than the gunners.
Can you cite the page of the one you're talking about though? If you're talking about the Robot command armor, that is SPECIFICLY Designed for Robot pilots in mind..... you're wrong. It's found on page 50 of NG2 and is stated that it's specificly designed for the job (Which means others are not) It's also very specific that it is NOT EBA. It's in the non EBA section and there's a note in the write up that it's not. You may be misremembering.
And again most robo jockies (And power armor pilots) have non power armor for when they're OUT of their robots. That doesn't mean they're fully armored while In them.
You're making an assumption that isn't supported by anything other than your opinion,
You're citing one picture, of a cropped image from a robot as your basis, from which the 'armor' was created to suit the picture, not the other way around (Or they'd have shots of it standing up, and not just the cropped pic)
I do. Eba is strapped to you tightly. It's -environmental- body armor. It has to form a full envriomental sea. Not easy to do when you're strapped in. Much less over an already thick layer of clothing.
Because they're TRYING for the guy in a sumo suit type of manuverability? Why do you assure me it's meant to go over thick cloathing?
Again.... honestly go put on two or three coats and see how well you move. lol I'm not trying to be amusing. I'm being honest. Go try it out. it's not fun.
I 100% disagree. I think that's 100% exactly what they expect you to do and 100% exactly how it is. Other wise they wouldn't be able to maintain an environmental seal.
If it's not tight (yes like spandex) how are you maintaining the seal? Are you envisioning a balloon effect with everything poofed out? lol
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
You wear your daily clothes under your armor, or its nearly useless.
No... it keeps you alive in MD firefights. This bumps up to another issue I have. A) The players that think their chars LIVE in their EBA and never take it off. Armor is uncomfortable at the best of times. Sure you'll wear it on patrol or on missions because you have to. When you get back to base or what evr you strip out of that crap ASAP.
That's when you change into your 'day clothes' be it a uniform or jeans and a teeshirt. You're surely not weariing it 'under' the armor, that'd just make it that much more uncomfortable. (And none of it pictured shows the possibility of that much room under the armor anyway)
and B) That many players tend to forget that aspect, and also forget that many towns and most cities don't let you walk down the street in the armor anyway. NG and the CS don't let you tool around in full battle rattle. They stop you at the outside of town and you either have to strip down/disarm or locker that sort of stuff.
There's a difference between "underwear or a body glove" and full out MDC clothing under full out environmental body armor.
The MH-500 is made of MDC Microfiber fabric. I might allow that. With it's whopping 6mdc. Sure.
eliakon wrote:Okay soooo
This looks like a Headcanon war.
Are there any official sources for the claims of:
1) The physical complexity of driving a robot
2) the inability to wear armor while doing so
3) that any of the dualing pictures are canon?
4) how EBA works in rifts?
5) the size and thickness of EBA systems
6) what the standard flight uniform of robots is?
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:eliakon wrote:Okay soooo
This looks like a Headcanon war.
Are there any official sources for the claims of:
<Snip>
3) that any of the dualing pictures are canon?
If they are in the book, they're canon. If they aren't (because Kev said "images aren't always canon") then.. A) Kev is an idiot and B) he should not bother putting in illustrations if they are meaningless. Otherwise, in any argument, i can just claim "that isn't how the robot looks" even though all the illustrations show it that way. If illustrations aren't canon - then in my game the SAMAS looks totally different. See how stupid that is?
eliakon wrote:I dunno....The problem I have is that we run into the same problem with pictures that obviously do not match, or that are 'styalistic' or what ever.
Though my personal solution is to consider art to be deuterocanonical (of canon, but a lesser form and not able to contradict the greater canon, but still able to trump any lesser source).
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:So if the space is that tight in a suit that's 10'5", it's going to be LESS in smaller suits.
Which is funny, since you're tilting at windmills here. I never claimed small suits would allow EBA. I agree with you, they wouldn't. Quit making things up.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Nothing to support them on. You swing your foot backwards to kick the pylon lever to deploy them.
You know, except that part where it unequivocally says that the computer engages the pylons automatically.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:It's a large bipedal machine that by actual phyics has a ton of problems even existing, but I know we're playing rifts so real science seldom has a place. Even in Rifts, piloting robots is not easy.
Easy enough that illiterates can do it, and there's no source of any kind saying it is difficult.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Only select people can even try,
Source? If we're going by OCCs that let you choose the skills, its hardly "select". Way more than half.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:and it takes dedicated training. Your question is akin to "What's so difficult about piloting a tank. It's just a vehicle".... yes... and no. Piloting a tank isn't easy
About as hard as piloting a bulldozer, really, though with less field of vision (in a modern tank, in a Rifts tank, you probab ly have 360 degree viewscreens). FWIW, i learned to drive (and use for its intended purpose) a Bulldozer in about three 8 hour work days.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:and it's just 'rolling'. It's not 10-50 feet tall. it can't 'trip' or stumble. it doesn't have a higher center of gravity. it doesn't get caught on power lines or tree branches and maybe fall down. It doesn't 'RUN' or "Jump".
piloting a robot is going to be a pretty complex operation.
heck people wreck piloting cars and bicycles all the time and they're not 'Hard'. Piloting a robot is going to be about 50-100 times harder than that
Everything you're describing is handled by software... it HAS to be.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
There's no physical way for a human to operate enough control surfaces at once to pilot a robot if they have to account for every movement of every joint.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Want a good example of how something this complex is handled? While it is not Rifts, the tech involved is actually more futuristic. Go watch Macross Plus (im not sure if the scene im thinking about is in the OAV or the Movie version, as both have scenes that the other doesn't contain) - there is an entire extended scene where Isamu Dyson is piloting a VF-11 Thunderbolt III and we can clearly see how ALL of the controls work. The foot pedals control movement (in Battroid, pressing both forward causes it to walk forward, one back and one forward causes it to turn, etc; controls the directionality of the thrust in Gerwalk/Fighter modes), and the twin sticks control the movement of the arms and hands (his fingers slot through rings on the joysticks, so when he opens his hand, the hands of the Battroid open, and the sticks slide along short rails on either side of the cockpit - when he slides them back, the mech draws its arms back as if to punch, etc) and maneuver the ship in Fighter mode.
Its simple actions translated into complicated ones via software - just like any modern computer controlled system (the F-22 isn't even flyable without computer assistance; its so maneuverable that if you tried to directly pilot it youd kill yourself, for instance).
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
edit:
This is also inferred by pretty much all of the flying PAs - there are no flight sticks or control surfaces, as the flying PAs are the form-fitting type - so they have to respond to certain movements/haptic feedback from the pilot to fly. Point your toes? Engage rockets, etc. Simple movements interpreted by software to make the armor even functional.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Armor restricts your movements
You have a really dim view of Rifts EBA if you think it is true to the extent where it would hinder the operation of controls. If it was that restricting, you couldnt fight in it.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:"Some foot pedals and some levers" lol is your robot from 1950s television? Captain Proton?
Um, no, from Rifts, where that method of control is specifically pointed out on a number of occasions.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote: Not that it matters, as i've pointed out how simple controls can result in complicated actions above.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:As for interference, yes there will be. Armor takes up space.
Most of the armor seems to be... at best a few inches thick on the very armored portions, and significantly thinner on other areas. Not that it really matters, as you dont need nearly as much space as you think you do. I could fit into, and drive, my wife's old Chevy Aveo wearing a full set of Burgundian Gothic plate armor. With no issues. The armor in Rifts is significantly less impairing.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:it makes you move in certain ways. it restricts you from moving in other ways. It's restrictive. Even good armor is. It's partially displayed in the movmenet penalties and what not but even that is enormously generous. (We're playing a RPG, noone actually wants REAL world stuff too much in a game it's a bummer))
I live in the UP of MI. (Nothern Gun, Represent!)) It gets COLD up here in the winter. -35 type cold. We still do things. go out and what not. Have you ever driven in a winter coat and gloves?
Since i live in MI, yeah. Every year. It doesn't restrict me in any way. My gloves (hand woven wool, by my wife) dont impair my sense of touch in any meaningful way. Maybe buy a coat that actually fits you?
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Much less restrictive than full body EBA I'm sure.
why are you so sure? EBA doesn't have locked joints like medieval armor did (could only bend in one or two directions). It isn't hugely bulky (a full suit of 100MDC armor weighs less then my breast and backplate (not a LOT less, to be fair, but when you consider the breastplate is only about 1/3 of the weight of the whole suit..), and the hands dont have to be some super-thick, no-tactile response plate - in fact, if you look at most illustrations, they look like gloves, with maybe a plate on the back of the hand.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Driving is more difficult. (Not impossible.) but have you ever tried to change the radio station with gloves on? Not armored MDC gloves. Just normal gloves.
Uh, yeah, it isn't exactly hard. Reach over, turn dial. Then again, im not using some mega-inflated synthetic material 10$-at-Meijers gloves. The only part of driving in the winter i find more difficult is the idiots on the road who freak out the moment there is snow (and we live in MI, people, seriously?) and drive like morons.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Try it out. Then imagine you're sitting in a bipedal giant robot trying to run and manuver and you're swiping at controll surfaces in full armor.
Covered that
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
If armor made your tactile feedback that bad, it wouldn't be usable in combat. Even Medieval armor, you didn't wear hand-wear that took away your sense of touch (if you see anyone pointing out articulate plate fingers, theyre full of it, that stuff never existed on the battlefield).
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:No. I'd imagine they're in flight suits or uniforms. Not 'skivvies'. But then I doubt robo jockies are getting out of their robots in the field just for giggles. If they do they're either shutting down the bot and doing stuff. where in they could don their armor then if needed. or evacuating a crashing bot.
There's no room for them to wear their armor (which only makes them a few inches bigger in each dimension at most), but they have room to STORE their armor for use when they get dismounted? Which is it man, you cant have it both ways.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Can you cite your sources on this? Where are you seeing pilots compartments on most robots? Page numbers please. Very seldom are such things shown and when they are they're typically plenty cramped.
The descriptions of the robots themselves. For the Skull Walker, the illustration, that shows a grunt walking next to the thing, in full armor. But in most cases, the description of the robot. A LOT of them have room for the stated crew + X passengers, +X MORE passengers "but cramped". Plenty. Of. Space.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:OHHHHH... I'm sorry. You have an image of him inside the robot wearing the armor. My bad. On what page is that found, of which book? I'd like to check it out.
... are you being serious or just being a troll.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Pilots and gunners are different. Pilots have to drive and need to be able to move more than the gunners.
Source? Oh, right, you dont have one.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Can you cite the page of the one you're talking about though? If you're talking about the Robot command armor, that is SPECIFICLY Designed for Robot pilots in mind..... you're wrong. It's found on page 50 of NG2 and is stated that it's specificly designed for the job (Which means others are not) It's also very specific that it is NOT EBA. It's in the non EBA section and there's a note in the write up that it's not. You may be misremembering.
... or you're deliberately miss-quoting me, as i edited the post within 60 seconds and showed both sets, and even marked it as an edit.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:And again most robo jockies (And power armor pilots) have non power armor for when they're OUT of their robots. That doesn't mean they're fully armored while In them.
If they dont have room to wear the armor, they certainly dont have room to STORE the armor and put it on later.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:You're making an assumption that isn't supported by anything other than your opinion,
And passages from the books that ive pointed out, and artwork, etc. You know, my "opinion" that it works the way it is shown.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:You're citing one picture, of a cropped image from a robot as your basis, from which the 'armor' was created to suit the picture, not the other way around (Or they'd have shots of it standing up, and not just the cropped pic)
Uh, no, im citing about a dozen pictures in the NG book alone (ANY of the robots with a visible pilots compartment show the pilot, in armor).
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
The illustration for the armor itself (the Non-Enviro one) shows THREE different robots, and the environmental set shows a FOURTH.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:I do. Eba is strapped to you tightly. It's -environmental- body armor. It has to form a full envriomental sea. Not easy to do when you're strapped in. Much less over an already thick layer of clothing.
... how many dozens of EBA's do you want me to show you that are very obviously NOT tightly strapped to you?
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote: Well start with Crusader; the upper chest is NOT conformed the wearer in any way (unless it was patterned on a Kittani). You dont need it to be form-fitting to form an environmental seal. It just needs to be closed and sealed. If it isnt resting against your skin, that's not hurting the seal any
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Honestly, as presented, the armor CANT be that tightly fit - if it was, it would be 20x as expensive as each suit would have be custom fit to the wearer. This is CLEARLY not the case as the stuff is mass produced.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Because they're TRYING for the guy in a sumo suit type of manuverability? Why do you assure me it's meant to go over thick cloathing?
For one thing, because "thick clothing" is not a firemans turn out gear. Its... a sweater. The only person citing the sumo suit over and over is you.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Again.... honestly go put on two or three coats and see how well you move. lol I'm not trying to be amusing. I'm being honest. Go try it out. it's not fun.
You keep coming back to that, and yet no one other than you is claiming that's what it is like.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
The illustrations dont support you, for one thing, nor do the descriptions.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
A set of fatigues is NOT a thick coat, much less two or three. Its a medium-weight synttetic fabric a few MM thick. Its just clothes, nothing more, nothing less.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:I 100% disagree. I think that's 100% exactly what they expect you to do and 100% exactly how it is. Other wise they wouldn't be able to maintain an environmental seal.
I think we've covered how that's a pile of bunk. Sealed != form fitting. It means sealed.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:If it's not tight (yes like spandex) how are you maintaining the seal? Are you envisioning a balloon effect with everything poofed out? lol
Because two hard portions of the armor close together, forming a seal, with your limbs inside of it.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Or they use semi-rigid materials for the seals, like they must on armor like the huntsman or bushman and et al, that aren't all hard plates. Those dont go all sumo, somehow, and are hardly form-fitting tight jumpsuits.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
You wear your daily clothes under your armor, or its nearly useless.
No... it keeps you alive in MD firefights. This bumps up to another issue I have. A) The players that think their chars LIVE in their EBA and never take it off. Armor is uncomfortable at the best of times. Sure you'll wear it on patrol or on missions because you have to. When you get back to base or what evr you strip out of that crap ASAP.
Except for the part where a lot of soldiers and mercs operate away from any base for weeks or months at a time. Where are they keeping all that stuff?
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:That's when you change into your 'day clothes' be it a uniform or jeans and a teeshirt. You're surely not weariing it 'under' the armor, that'd just make it that much more uncomfortable. (And none of it pictured shows the possibility of that much room under the armor anyway)
You're looking at different pictures than i am.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:and B) That many players tend to forget that aspect, and also forget that many towns and most cities don't let you walk down the street in the armor anyway. NG and the CS don't let you tool around in full battle rattle. They stop you at the outside of town and you either have to strip down/disarm or locker that sort of stuff.
This has nothing to do with the discussion, though
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
I agree with you, FWIW, that people tend to "live in their armor" unless you point out to them how absurd that is. Oddly enough, i've always thought those rules (at least for non-CS cities) are stupid in the extreme.
"Hey, normal human dude, you have to wear regular clothes and locker your armor and weapons... but Cyborg guy there can still be a heavily armored juggernaught and punch you to mist at will!"
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
In my games, they dont let you carry weapons in town, but if you want to tool around town in your armor so you dont get insta-gibbed by a vibro-knife, no one cares. The CS, obviously, is different.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:There's a difference between "underwear or a body glove" and full out MDC clothing under full out environmental body armor.
Uh... here's where the major issue is, i think. You have this idea that the MDC clothing is somehow restrictive or different than regular clothing, when all of the descriptions claim it isn't this way at all. Its just clothes. Really expensive clothes made out of MDC fabrics and weaves, but its just clothes. There's absolutely nothing that supports the MDC clothing as being heavy and super restrictive.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:The MH-500 is made of MDC Microfiber fabric. I might allow that. With it's whopping 6mdc. Sure.
Right. None of the other MDC clothing has much more.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
The ARMORED MDC FATIGUES are different. They have plates and crap inserted in them, and i dont think anyone was trying to say you can wear that under armor. I certainly wasnt. In fact, i specifically said i wouldnt allow it.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:It's a large bipedal machine that by actual phyics has a ton of problems even existing, but I know we're playing rifts so real science seldom has a place. Even in Rifts, piloting robots is not easy.
Easy enough that illiterates can do it, and there's no source of any kind saying it is difficult.
Where are you getting that illiterates are driving glitterboys? And as for sources saying it's difficult... the write up only mentions how highly trained and specialized they are about 10 times. I'd refer you to the RUE and have you read the entry.
Illiterates, you might be thinking of the CS.. but the CS Don't field Glitterboys.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:It doesn't though. It doesn't say that 'unequivocally' or .. in any other way. It says that the pylons and jets fly into action the moment the gun is fired. NOT that a computer does it.
Where are you getting that illiterates are driving glitterboys? And as for sources saying it's difficult... the write up only mentions how highly trained and specialized they are about 10 times. I'd refer you to the RUE and have you read the entry.
Illiterates, you might be thinking of the CS.. but the CS Don't field Glitterboys.
It's been a while but I'm pretty sure you can't choose pilot Robot/PA under a secondary skill. No. Not 'way more than half'.
There's a great deal of difference between piloting a tank and a bulldozer... I'm amazed I even have to make that clear.
As you seem to be fond of saying, can you cite a source for that? I'm doubtful. The indication is that driving Robots isn't that easy. You don't just hit a button and it moves forward. you gotta pilot the thing. There's not gong to be software for 'Run 40 feet forward, commando roll come up, leap to the right, slide, fire your main gun, then get up, zig zag to the next bit of cover. swuat and shoot.There's no physical way for a human to operate enough control surfaces at once to pilot a robot if they have to account for every movement of every joint.
Thus.. Implication that it's DIFFICULT... not EASy. Thank you. lol
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Want a good example of how something this complex is handled? While it is not Rifts, the tech involved is actually more futuristic. Go watch Macross Plus (im not sure if the scene im thinking about is in the OAV or the Movie version, as both have scenes that the other doesn't contain) - there is an entire extended scene where Isamu Dyson is piloting a VF-11 Thunderbolt III and we can clearly see how ALL of the controls work. The foot pedals control movement (in Battroid, pressing both forward causes it to walk forward, one back and one forward causes it to turn, etc; controls the directionality of the thrust in Gerwalk/Fighter modes), and the twin sticks control the movement of the arms and hands (his fingers slot through rings on the joysticks, so when he opens his hand, the hands of the Battroid open, and the sticks slide along short rails on either side of the cockpit - when he slides them back, the mech draws its arms back as if to punch, etc) and maneuver the ship in Fighter mode.
Its simple actions translated into complicated ones via software - just like any modern computer controlled system (the F-22 isn't even flyable without computer assistance; its so maneuverable that if you tried to directly pilot it youd kill yourself, for instance).
Again this is a misrepresentation. In Macross, you have the protoculture stuff and the 'thinking cap' in the helmets that are basically reading the pilot's minds. That's not the control interfaces for Rifts.
Indeed, but it's a skill none the less and one that's going to be extreamly unforgiving of mistakes. When you're booking along in PA doing 500mph a mistake is going to sting, but you keep poppingback and forth between robots and PA and they're different.
You do realize most EBA gives penalties right? It's listed under most every one and when they 'dont' have penalties it's listed as a special thing? Including the armors you list later having to be specificly designed and purpose built to try and eliminate the penalties that express that it is harder.
yes, it's harder to drive if you're covered in FULLY ENVIRONMENTALLY SEALED BATTLE ARMOR. lol How could it possibly NOT be more difficult??
Please show me sources, A NUMBER OF THEM no less that SPECIFICALLY point out it's just foot pedals and some levers. I'd like book and page numbers please.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote: Not that it matters, as i've pointed out how simple controls can result in complicated actions above.
You've not actually shown anything. You've speculated with out verification or indication of being correct.
I would suggest you get a look at a Jet cockpit and see how confining they are. Which is the closest thing we'd have to a compairson. And then try to imagine even getting into the seat in normal clothes. Much less full armor.
it makes you move in certain ways. it restricts you from moving in other ways. It's restrictive. Even good armor is. It's partially displayed in the movmenet penalties and what not but even that is enormously generous. (We're playing a RPG, noone actually wants REAL world stuff too much in a game it's a bummer))
I have a coat that fits. I have wore gloves. If your'e trying to tell me you are 100% unrestricted wearing a coat and gloves, well... it's simply not true. I'm not trying to be insulting but anyone that's worn them know that it's not true. Nor do you have 100% sense of touch in anything past latex gloves and not even there.
Because... we're told it is. We're shown it is. yes it's bulky. It's not 'AS' bulky as medieval armor (In some cases, but in others, yep just as bulky if not more) It has penalties to physical skills showing that your movement is restricted usually by 10% or more. And that's with it being in a forgiving RPG written by geeks, that's not even remotely trying to replicate all the difficulties of real life.
I'm not sure I've actually seen a dial on a radio in over a decade. Mine have buttons. Smallish plastic buttons that are not easy to punch in with gloves, or with out hitting two or three. Maybe if you're wearing latex gloves or the little paper thin wool ones we give to kids because they lose 50 pair a year. I'm talking about real gloves.
Again you seem to be popping back and forth between PA and Robots... but sure you can have it both ways. You might not have room to have your armor on, while trying to drive as the seat/cockpits aren't built for it and the controll surfaces are wrap around and you need your hands to control it all, but there could be a storage locker behind or under the seat. Which is usually how it's described 'Minimal space for a Rifle, and suit of armor' or 'Storage locker for a rifle and a few odds and ends" etc.
If this is true, it should be enormously easy for you to cite your sources where we have pics of the pilots compartments on most robots with page numbers to back it up.
Can you cite the page of the one you're talking about though? If you're talking about the Robot command armor, that is SPECIFICLY Designed for Robot pilots in mind..... you're wrong. It's found on page 50 of NG2 and is stated that it's specificly designed for the job (Which means others are not) It's also very specific that it is NOT EBA. It's in the non EBA section and there's a note in the write up that it's not. You may be misremembering.... or you're deliberately miss-quoting me, as i edited the post within 60 seconds and showed both sets, and even marked it as an edit.
I'm not misquoting you at all. I quoted from the post. It's still there to be read.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Its not an armored pilot suit, though, its full-up medium EBA. And you keep making a big deal about "EBA!" - there are plenty of EBA's that are smaller/slimmer/less confining than some of the "armored pilot suits". (edit) It is not, in fact, EBA. The helmet doesn't seal. But it is obviously bigger and bulkier than some of the EBAs on the next few pages. (further edit) i was both right and wrong. There is an EBA version later in the book (the Trekker).
Clothing and even ridgid armor takes up less space when it's not on a human form, than when it is. You can fold up clothes and stick them in a
And the three, -disprove- your previous statement as they are specifically -not- eba armor.
Show me. Give me books and page numbers.
and being armor, it's going to need to be fitted, -anyway-. It's not one size fits all. It's just an RPG so they seldom mention stuff like that. (But you can find it, as they mention largr DBees and stuff having to pay above and beyond for special fittings)
I actually wasn't the first, but it's a good visual. People act like they've never in their lives put on multiple layers of clothes. That or when they do they suffer no loss of mobility. It's silly and absurd.
But they are... a borg, already robotic and not as fluid or dextous as a human (Or other biological life form) Inside of MDC clothing, Inside of EBA armor, Inside of Power armor and or a robot vehicle. yeah they are claiming that sort of thing. That's the problem.
1) Lets be honest here. the illustrations don't show any MDC clothing under EBA armor.
But they don't... unless they're weilded or something.. when you put two hard pieces of most anything together.. there's not an air tight seal, unless you some how seal it with something. You're describing legos. There's no air tight seal there.
You're looking at different pictures than i am.
I might be. I asked for you to cite pages and books repeatedly. You seem unwilling or able to do so... Sooo... I can't address what you're looking at if you won't tell me.
The same cops that enforce the arms and armor thing, enforce it for cyborgs too, having their weapon systems disabled to go into town, or they're not allowed in, and or hobbled.It's usually discussed in the paragraph RIGHT AFTER the one on armor and weapons. lol
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Uh... here's where the major issue is, i think. You have this idea that the MDC clothing is somehow restrictive or different than regular clothing, when all of the descriptions claim it isn't this way at all. Its just clothes. Really expensive clothes made out of MDC fabrics and weaves, but its just clothes. There's absolutely nothing that supports the MDC clothing as being heavy and super restrictive.
Except the weights an that it's described for the most part as being heavier and yes more bulky. lol
Pepsi Jedi wrote:I'm not going to take the time to reply to all that.
You refuse to cite books and page numbers, therefore you can't back up anything you say. Untill you do, it's nothing more than claims with out foundation. Go through and cite the sources you claim you have multiples of. Give us books and page numbers to back up your claims. You claim it's easy and you have multiple instances of these things yet can't seem to toss out a page number for verification.
When you do, everyone can go and read the page, and in doing so, either prove you right, or be able to quote the book on said page and prove you wrong.
Like I did when you claimed things about the glitter boy, that were not in the book, and corrected you on the flight suit worn inside the glitter boys, which you claimed was thick eba, and was also wrong.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Not trying to be funny, but the parts where he made claims and I asked him to cite the books and page numbers for them and he just hand waved it off and said there were plenty of examples, or that he wouldn't prove his claims.
I don't need to post three or four times asking for the proof. He was asked, often more than once to prove his words. he hasn't. That's fine but his claims remain unfounded untill he does. I can't make him prove his words. I already think they're false. They'll remain false untill there's canon books with page numbers to support the claims he's trying to make.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Not trying to be funny, but the parts where he made claims and I asked him to cite the books and page numbers for them and he just hand waved it off and said there were plenty of examples, or that he wouldn't prove his claims.
I don't need to post three or four times asking for the proof. He was asked, often more than once to prove his words. he hasn't. That's fine but his claims remain unfounded untill he does. I can't make him prove his words. I already think they're false. They'll remain false untill there's canon books with page numbers to support the claims he's trying to make.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:I don't need to post three or four times asking for the proof. He was asked, often more than once to prove his words. he hasn't. That's fine but his claims remain unfounded untill he does. I can't make him prove his words. I already think they're false. They'll remain false untill there's canon books with page numbers to support the claims he's trying to make.