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Misfit KotLD wrote:

Natasha wrote:

Natasha wrote:

Misfit KotLD wrote:Yes, it is lost,

I disagree.

The trait is indeed still there. May not be visible but nothing changes that Race_X is by nature more P.P.E. rich than humans.

No, because that's gone the moment they get the exact same PPE as a human mage.

The nature of the race does not change.

Misfit KotLD wrote:

sasha wrote:

Misfit KotLD wrote:So a race with more PPE than humans is penalized when becoming a mage? That's where the thinking you're using is breaking down. Although I shouldn't be trying to add sense to Rifts...

How is getting a larger base P.P.E. a penalty?

Compare the PPE a human mage starts with to a race with a higher base who loses that and gets the same PPE base as the human mage.

Neither the human nor the alternate race lose, forfeit, or otherwise have disadvantages imposed on them; so no penalty.

I am by default more P.P.E.-rich than you, let's say. Why does that necessitate if we both become mages that I should have more P.P.E. than you?

Misfit KotLD wrote:So explain how the race should not have a higher PPE.

I already explained. The O.C.C. says that creatures who become this start the game like this. It's not a question of race anymore, it's a question of O.C.C. This keeps those god damn overachieving humans from having starting base P.P.E. higher than God's, among other things.

Misfit KotLD wrote:So the nature's not changed, it's ignored.

It's not ignored either. It's just not a factor when choosing to become a mage O.C.C.

Note that if the race's base P.P.E. is higher than a mage O.C.C.'s base, that this trait IS a factor. Why? Because penalising a PC doesn't make sense in this situation.

IIRC, adult humans start out with 2D6 PPE. For those of you who are on the side of adding both race and magic OCC PPE together, shouldn't the human mage get this additional PPE as well?

I have always added both since the beginning of time. Well, Palladium time anyway. Some of the races say add both together, vast majority say nothing.

Since the race gets to add all other bonus in every other aspect of all the other stats to an OCC why should PPE/ISP be the only ones left out?

It doesn't make sense to me to do it any other way.

No canon or cannon or cannnnon or cannnnnnnnnnon invloved just plain old Big Bob rusty geared brain turning thoughts. (ooowwww! that hurt)

Misfit KotLD wrote:

Natasha wrote:

Misfit KotLD wrote:So the nature's not changed, it's ignored.

It's not ignored either. It's just not a factor when choosing to become a mage O.C.C.

Ding, it's ignored.

It's impossible to ignore something that is not a factor.

I think we're done.

Misfit KotLD wrote:

Natasha wrote:It's impossible to ignore something that is not a factor.

That's what ignored is.

No it's not.

Oh goody dictionary time. I don't stand a chance now.

THE Dictionary wrote:1. to refrain from noticing or recognizing

I am not refraining from noticing or recognising racial traits.

THE Dictionary wrote:To refuse to pay attention to; disregard.

I do not refuse to pay attention to racial traits; I do not disregard racial traits.

Misfit KotLD wrote:

Natasha wrote:Oh goody dictionary time. I don't stand a chance now.

THE Dictionary wrote:1. to refrain from noticing or recognizing

I am not refraining from noticing or recognising racial traits.

THE Dictionary wrote:To refuse to pay attention to; disregard.

I do not refuse to pay attention to racial traits; I do not disregard racial traits.

Ok, you said earlier they are not a factor. How is that not ignoring, disregarding, or not paying attention to?

The process through which I go to decide that they are or are not a factor requires that I notice, recognise, and pay attention to them first.

Misfit KotLD wrote:

Natasha wrote:

Misfit KotLD wrote:

Natasha wrote:Oh goody dictionary time. I don't stand a chance now.

THE Dictionary wrote:1. to refrain from noticing or recognizing

I am not refraining from noticing or recognising racial traits.

THE Dictionary wrote:To refuse to pay attention to; disregard.

I do not refuse to pay attention to racial traits; I do not disregard racial traits.

Ok, you said earlier they are not a factor. How is that not ignoring, disregarding, or not paying attention to?

The process through which I go to decide that they are or are not a factor requires that I notice, recognise, and pay attention to them first.

At which point they are ignored, discarded, disregarded, and no longer a factor.

Nope.

Like I said, a P.P.E. rich race will always be a P.P.E. rich race.

Like I said, the racial traits never go away.

Misfit KotLD wrote:Good grief, you're completely ignoring what you just said. You do ignore the PPE rich trait.

I'm not ignoring what I said. I'm not ignoring racial traits.

Just because Mork and Mindy get the same base O.C.C. P.P.E. as mages does not mean I have ignored anything about Mork's racial traits. He's still from the richer race and will always be from the richer race. If Mork decides to become a vagabond and Mindy a mage, then she gets more than Mork despite the fact his race is richer in P.P.E. Certainly I am not going to say well Mindy's a human so she can't have more P.P.E. than this P.P.E. rich vagabond. It's a matter of O.C.C., not race.

We have arrived at different conclusions. I'm not trying to change your mind about your conclusion. I'm trying to make you understand mine. Since I've spent all day trying without a mm of success, I'm done in this topic. Take it to PM if you want to continue.

Misfit KotLD wrote:I see where you're coming from but find it illogical and a cop-out.

Cop-out from what?

Misfit KotLD wrote:Improving the verisimilitude of the game itself.

I find it verisimilitudinous. And I think it is the most equitable. It's simplicity is its strength. This way I don't have a human schmuck trying to haggle more P.P.E. because he studied harder, or some non-human who thinks he deserves more just because he has some sort of head start over a human, for example. Magic is a pursuit and when you get the level required to be a mage, you have O.C.C. base P.P.E. to determine. Just because one is naturally richer in P.P.E., I still do not see why he has to have more than what is base for the O.C.C.. I see how he can, certainly.

But like she said, our perception guides us. Her perception of character creation is quite different from just about anyone here or from those I know in real life. That doesn't make the other perceptions illogical cop-outs; it just makes them different. What makes them illogical cop-outs is their substance.

And I'd say she's sufficiently explained all criticisms leveled at her stance.

Greetings and Salutations. And okay, since I've been checking in on this thread for a while now, I'll try to address the topic (and even explain it). However, this means I'm probably going to ramble, so get comfortable.

Okay, first, not adding the racial P.P.E. and O.C.C. P.P.E. is by the book. That's how the O.C.C. is written up, even in PF which does have the other races right in the main book. No statements like: "This is only for Humans. If you want to play a different race in this book you will have to figure out a different way to figure out the base P.P.E. because we're not telling you. The jokes on you!" There are exceptions (not in the PF main book, but they're in enough other Palladium Books in general) which can be found in the book. A statement which states what it is, and exceptions to a rule. Yeah, that's pretty much a rule. Any disagreements, and just flip open the books to the magic classes with the lines like "Permanent P.P.E. Base" which states how to determine it but don't mention adding racial P.P.E. (with possible rare exception, but again, exception), and then show me an example anywhere in the book that says "This is for Humans only" (or any equivalent) if you want to say that doesn't count. Anything else is a House Rule, which isn't necessarily a bad thing (it was asked for where it said it in the book earlier, so I'm making the point here now).

Now, just because it is by the book doesn't mean it's the best way. I could go either way on the matter personally (it would depend on how a player came to me with it and the campaign in question I was going to run). We already have heard reasons why we SHOULD add them together, so I'll offer a couple points (and this is the main reason I decided to post).

1) As Natasha mentioned earlier it's a difference in training. She mentioned it earlier, but I'll try to elaborate a bit more on it (a few points she may have not thought of or couldn't put into words, probably that language barrier thing as I'm fairly sure English isn't her primary). First, it's probably just easier so the race with a higher P.P.E. Base doesn't have to work as hard. Yes, yes, I heard the response already, but that doesn't mean they have to be lazy (they may be, cocky because they ARE superior normally, but not necessarily), this can have other equivalents, like shorter training time. Maybe even a talented Human will take a minimum of 10 years in training, but that hard working Elf will pick it up in half that time! Sure, same P.P.E., but learned it a lot faster. Speed in which it is learned may not bear a direct influence into game mechanics, but it may very well reflect into the characters themselves (and this should matter). Consider it something like Ninjas & Superspies. What bonuses does a Dedicated Martial Artist get to the second style? Yes, it's a second style for versatility, but one could try to make the case they already know how to fight so learning the next one is easier and they should get combat bonuses or something. They don't. What do they get? They can learn it faster. Consider the same thing here (and the whole martial art training may not be the best example, but should be enough to help get some visualization).

2) Okay from the sound of things that last one may not be enough to sway everyone, so here is option 2 (to be added with the previous or taken as an alternate). Consider it like the attribute cap (which I think has been done away with, but I do believe 30 was the max for normal characters sometime in the past, so just bear with me). P.P.E. may have a similar restriction. No matter how hard you TRAIN, you can only advance so far. You get to a point where training just can't help you anymore, regardless of your natural aptitude. Once you get to a certain point, you need to experience to teach those things a book (or even instruction) never could. There are some who can beat those natural limits, and those are the races that state to add them together. Or those races with a naturally high P.P.E. greater than the O.C.C. not having to really train to develop it, merely how to use it. I do believe there are things that cannot be taught by studies alone, this may be one of them.

Now, with all of that said, I still say I could go either way. Likely I'll stick with by the book, but I'm not opposed to the other way. I'm not trying to say someone adding them together is bad or that they have to change, I personally don't care (as long as it works for that game, cool). I'm merely trying to offer some ideas to help at least see the other side. Hopefully this has been of some help. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys.

Misfit KotLD wrote:So, you boil it down to "It's easier so they get lazy." Only in a lot more words. Way to generalize.

As to the OCC only for one race, that was addressed to Drew and his example from BtS, which is a modern earth setting, unless you're a spell throwing monkey, you're playing a human. To the rest of that argument, I remind you of my comment on poorly written rules. It's not covered because someone didn't think to cover it.

Yeah, kind of thought that would be the overall impression. By that logic a child prodigy who can graduate college at 5 years old and becomes a doctor is lazy because he's just a doctor. Sure, that's a huge difference from everyone else, but he's just lazy because that 30 year old is a doctor too. Yes, the ages may be a slight exaggeration compared to what I mentioned earlier, but the same logic.

A fighter can train everyday in his room and never once do anything with it, but there is something he'll be lacking without ever using it (even if just sparring). Training can only do so much. You don't have to be lazy, but you can still only go so far without expanding with actual experience. Granted, I'm sure the whole point will be ignored as I know there are some who just don't want to admit there is any other way to look at a situation. I kind of suspected that would be the type of response, but I just had to try.

Greetings and Salutations. I make this post because of the question I want to ask after. As for your X:Y to X+1:Y metaphor, unnecessary. I never said I didn't see the other side. In fact, if you read my first, I state (more than once I believe) that I understood it and might even use if a player asked for it (before the character was used that is). And I'll use your formula with the one I mentioned earlier.

X:Y is your typical human. He goes to elementary school, high school, college, graduate college, and eventually after some internship he becomes a doctor. I'll say at the age of 30 (too lazy to find a precise age). Cool. He's a doctor. Nothing wrong with that. Now X+1:Y is your other race/child prodigy. Though probably not possible in the real world, he breezes through all that school (takes a GED and some other tests to just show he knows it) and graduates at the age of 5 years! Whoo! Go kid. Now because he's a doctor with the same skill as that 30 year old, how does this make him lazy or saying it doesn't show? Look at the two and you'll have no doubt which is the prodigy. Just because the 5 year old wasn't made chief surgeon while he was at it doesn't mean it can't be seen or that he's lazy. X+1:Y equals doing everything you had to way earlier and actually being able to USE it a lot faster. I won't push this matter more though as either you can't see it, or you don't want to (I'm kind of thinking the latter, but I could be wrong and if so I apologize).

Now, the question! This is just that odd thing that came into my mind. Since we're adding in the racial P.P.E. I'm curious what you would do in the following situation. A human finishes his wizard apprenticeship at the age of 24 and the elf finishes at the age of 15 (whoo! Go kid).Now our Human is Wizard O.C.C. + 2D6(race). Got it. I'm understand this part. Now that elf is only 15, so he gets Wizard O.C.C. + ?? Is it A) 5D6 (for adults) or B) 1D6x10 (PPE until he's 16)? Now, he's only 15, so it should be B by default. However, if it's B, what happens when he reaches 17? Does he LOSE that 5D6 PPE? Does it suddenly get ignored? Even if you argue you can't finish at that young of an age (though since we've gone into house rules I don't see why not) how do the wizards explain this loss of power? "Yup, I'm training to get better and losing power, it's great!"

Hmm ... and, on an odd note, that made me think of one other possibility to consider. Elf children have 1D6x10, Human teens have 6D6+P.E., now those two numbers are likely going to be close for their final sums (one or the other can be greater easily enough). If you don't lose power since you're training to actually control it, this heightened stage does come rather close. If a student learns how not to lose this edge, the end result could be closer as well (again, numbers are not the same, but not too far off either and just a random thought going through my head). I really started this for the middle paragraph, I am rather curious. Anyone feel free to chime in! Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys.

Misfit KotLD wrote:

sasha wrote:

Misfit KotLD wrote:Improving the verisimilitude of the game itself.

I find it verisimilitudinous. And I think it is the most equitable. It's simplicity is its strength. This way I don't have a human schmuck trying to haggle more P.P.E. because he studied harder, or some non-human who thinks he deserves more just because he has some sort of head start over a human, for example.

That's why the dice are rolled.

Yea, but it has to be established how many dice are rolled. And why. This establishes that.

Misfit KotLD wrote:

sasha wrote:Magic is a pursuit and when you get the level required to be a mage, you have O.C.C. base P.P.E. to determine. Just because one is naturally richer in P.P.E., I still do not see why he has to have more than what is base for the O.C.C.. I see how he can, certainly.

What's so frustrating?

Misfit KotLD wrote:

sasha wrote:But like she said, our perception guides us. Her perception of character creation is quite different from just about anyone here or from those I know in real life. That doesn't make the other perceptions illogical cop-outs; it just makes them different. What makes them illogical cop-outs is their substance.

And I'd say she's sufficiently explained all criticisms leveled at her stance.

Yes. "I go by the book." Which doesn't explain much when the reasoning is being discussed.

She goes by the book, too. I'm not sure what your point is here. Either she's sufficiently explained herself or she hasn't.

Misfit KotLD wrote:The +1 is lost somehow and the explanations offered leave plot holes.

That's a matter of opinion and preference.

I can just as well think the explanations leave no holes.

And we'd both be correct.

Misfit KotLD wrote:Sasha, she hasn't.

Then you have to be more specific because you said you know where she's coming from.

Misfit KotLD wrote:

sasha wrote:

Misfit KotLD wrote:The +1 is lost somehow and the explanations offered leave plot holes.

That's a matter of opinion and preference.

I can just as well think the explanations leave no holes.

And we'd both be correct.

What, the high PPE race always rolls worse?

Worse than what?

Misfit KotLD wrote:The hypothetical human mage we've been comparing for five damn pages now?

Why always worse? I just don't understand what you're getting at.

Change your settings and then it's less pages. Or just stop.

Misfit KotLD wrote:If high PPE guy starts with more PPE than the human, than he can't have gone as far for them to have the same starting mage PPE.

Or he doesn't have to go as far.

I just am not seeing how this is relevant to the point that Natasha has failed to explain herself sufficiently.

So I guess I'm done, too.

What I'm seeing in her conversation that isn't being said is that "they do get a bonus, but that bonus is an easier time to get to Level 1. Its just that when they do reach level one, each mage has the same proficiency and ppe level.' In other words, the races with a higher PPE base spend greater percentage of the time of their 'Apprenticeship' in studying/practicing the hows and whys of magic, and less on developing the ability to hold and expand their personal PPE. Thus the race's L1 mages are younger then humans L1 mages, on average.

Misfit KotLD wrote:But with youth comes higher PPE too.

Which we know, that extra that is gained in teen hood is used in developing the skill of their first occupation. So there is no gain from that extra.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Misfit KotLD wrote:But with youth comes higher PPE too.

Which we know, that extra that is gained in teen hood is used in developing the skill of their first occupation. So there is no gain from that extra.

What if their first occupation is a mage OCC? Hhhmmmmm...???

bigbobsr6000 wrote:
What if their first occupation is a mage OCC? Hhhmmmmm...???

It is still used up.

Harry Potter didn't use his up nor had his classmates.

bigbobsr6000 wrote:Harry Potter didn't use his up nor had his classmates.

That's about as much pain as I've felt in a long time. Jesus, Bob.

Natasha wrote:

bigbobsr6000 wrote:Harry Potter didn't use his up nor had his classmates.

That's about as much pain as I've felt in a long time. Jesus, Bob.

Thank you!

bigbobsr6000 wrote:

Natasha wrote:

bigbobsr6000 wrote:Harry Potter didn't use his up nor had his classmates.

That's about as much pain as I've felt in a long time. Jesus, Bob.

Thank you!

You're welcome.

You know that could set a fellar's head to throbbin' a bit from all these I get from various posts.

There's something pleasurable about bashing you over the head, Bob

Natasha wrote:There's something pleasurable about bashing you over the head, Bob

I find it very stimulating myself sometimes. Bashing my head from time to time.

The people at the home keep stopping me.

Greetings and Salutations. I was bored at work today, and thought about an odd scenario brought about by this thread and thought to share. However, I do have a question and a comment to make before I post the story (which you can read at your own discretion).

The question: Hmm ... okay, so I already asked about which P.P.E. value you add, and no good response. Anyways, I thought up another one. Okay, adding them the P.P.E. of the O.C.C. and the Race together is so the races with a higher starting P.P.E. than a Human get a bonus, check. I follow the logic. Now here comes the next question. What about those races that have the special ability that they get to add their Race P.P.E. to the O.C.C. P.P.E.? Are you going to completely gimp them now? "Well, yeah, they have a natural aptitude for magic more than any other race, but I gave that same bonus to everyone now so they're punished! Ha! That's right, they lose out!" That seems rather mean, though the house rules creates that issue unless you make a new house rule to help out those Races once again. I mainly ask since the patches to fix small holes tend to create bigger holes that need patching, so just trying to help spot the problems before they spring a leak.

Comment/Theory: Well, as commented earlier (started by one of my posts I believe), with youth comes a higher P.P.E. Now, as stated in one of my earlier posts, Human teenage P.P.E. (minimum 9 and maximum 66, without counting any physical skills) is very similar to Elf child P.P.E. (minimum 10 and maximum 60). Now, within the PF main book I believe these are the only two child P.P.E. ranges listed (not sure about any of the other books, but the only two I know). Now, as I also mentioned in that previous post, it would seem ... odd that the mage actually gets weaker once he becomes an adult. "Yes! I'm older, wiser, better! That means I lose power!" So I was just thinking randomly at work (yeah, I do more thinking at work than work) about how the two ranges (the only two I know that are given) are still close together in range. What if this naturally higher P.P.E. of races like elves isn't the same as we typically think? It's not that they have naturally higher P.P.E. at all! You may ask, "Huh?" So, let me explain ...

What if all living beings (with rare exception, though we'll say there are some) have a certain amount of P.P.E. capability that are in a very similar range regardless of race (as mentioned above with Humans and Elves)? It's not that they "naturally" have a higher base, it's that they lose less in the development in their skills. Elves, with their natural talent for magic, are able to retain more of their P.P.E. as they develop. However, Humans are a younger race, not quite as adept yet, and thereby lose considerably more. Thereby, the lower "adult" P.P.E., though not such a gap when they're younger. Training in magic includes how to refine this aspect so they don't lose as much (if any, perhaps learning to channel in outside/ambient P.P.E. to use for development instead of personal reserves). This means they don't get weaker as they get older like most, they retain this natural P.P.E. in all living beings, so the starting P.P.E. for magic O.C.C. is similar since most races have a very similar starting P.P.E. (pre-adulthood). I know there are some who will likely ignore this regardless, but I found it interesting and wanted to share.

Disclaimer: For clarity, though the scenario below was inspired by this thread, I am targeting no one in particular and have made exaggerations. This is not an attempt to flame, but more aimed for humor and a different look (disclaimer because misunderstandings happen a lot and people tend to take things personally). Some of the things noted are from real life and/or games I've run/been in.

[Scenario: For the sake of the scenario, I'll be referring to "art" as a representation of magic.]
So, five students walk into a school: two humans, two elves, and a dwarf. They all take their seats. Right as class is about to start, the dwarf suddenly stands up, mentions how dwarves don't practice art, and starts to walk out. Before leaving he turns to the humans and gives them a warning: "Best leave now lest you yourselves risk being led down a dangerous path. It may only be drawing now, but it will ultimately lead down a far darker path of Miming."

One of humans snickers, figuring the dwarf has been hit in the head one too many times with a war club. With the exit of the dwarf, the class begins. The teacher starts the class and explains how circles, squares, and triangles are the foundation of all art so they whole class will revolve around drawing those three objects.

The first elf (A) does an amazing job. With just a little bit more effort he'd be a master already. The teacher compliments and tells him this and, in reply, the elf shrugs, takes out another piece of paper, and starts to ask him what he's doing. The elf since he's so good he has time to take a break and isn't worried. Sighing, the teacher moves on. The next is a human (B), obviously no natural talent. Yeah, he's going to be a special project.

The next is the second elf (C), not quite as talented as the first, but an elf none the less and a natural artist. The teacher tells him he's doing well and the elf explains the angle on the triangle is slightly off and two sides of the square a centimeter too long. He takes out another sheet of paper and starts drawing them again. He's going to get this right darn it! Impressed at the dedication the teacher smiles and moves on to the next student. For a human (D) he has talent, but not quite as good as either elf. With some work though, he'll be an excellent artist.

After the first four hour class, A is learning to juggle, completely ignoring his practice. B is ... well, he knows a square has 4 sides, that's something I guess. C has already perfected it! Amazing! The teacher explains that he can move on to become an artist, but C argues he won't be lazy and needs to practice more. Confused, the teacher tries to explain he's already mastered this practice and practicing more won't do him any good. But C insists that unless he practices just as long and hard as the others he'd be lazy.

The teacher holds his head, but let's the student make his decision and heads to D. D, talented for a human, has made excellent progress, but still has a way to go. Determined to get better, D promises to practice an extra four hours of his personal time! He's dedicated, a definite admirable quality. Seeing how dedicated D is, C decides he's going to spend all of his free time practicing! He's going to practice longer and harder than anyone else!

Three months later, A has apparently skipped the last week of class entirely. He's talented, he can afford to miss a few days, or weeks, of class. B is, well, improving. Finally B is showing that he may have what it takes. C is ... well, practicing what he's already mastered, giving it a lot of effort, hardly ever resting, just practicing over and over and over again. Meanwhile, D has finally mastered the three shapes, and the teacher tells him how well he's done and how he's ready to move on. D leaves the class happy with this and goes out to be an artist.

Six months after that, A decided to show up for class and put forth at least enough effort to pass. He could have delayed longer, but he'll be darned if he lets B graduate before him. This is about pride! B has finally got the hang of things and mastered. It took a bit longer than most, but he got there. Despite the lack of talent, at least he never gave up and now he's being rewarded for it. C, finally seeing that everyone else has moved on, accepts that he's done practicing now.

C turns to the teacher and asks, "Okay, so what kind of bonus do I get?"

The teacher looks at him baffled, "Bonus? Um ... what do you mean?"

C, "Well, I had a natural aptitude for it, you said it yourself. And I practiced really hard! I deserve a bonus."

Teacher, "Well, yeah, but a circle is a circle. You finished that 6 months ago."

C, "What are you talking about?! I'm not lazy! I deserve a bonus."

Teacher, "Uh ... well, I never said you were lazy. You actually practiced harder than anyone. But you mastered what you had to, and no matter how much you practice you can't draw a circle better than a circle."

C, "That's unfair! I gave all that practice and with all my talent there should be some kind of bonus!"

Teacher, "Well, the bonus is that you could have finished 6 months ago and been an artist all that time. Look at D, he graduated 3 months ago and is considerably better than you now. He used his knowledge, you just kept practicing the same thing over and over."

C, "This is crap! I'm not lazy!"

Teacher, "Really, I don't know where you're getting this lazy thing from. It has nothing to do with being lazy."

C, "I deserve a bonus and not leaving until I get one!"

The teacher sighs. "All right, you want a bonus? This is your bonus. I'm letting you still be an artist despite your clear mental deficiencies. By all rights incompetence should hold you back."
[End Scenario]

Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

Only a matured mind can understand magic enough to become a mage. By the time you select the O.C.C., your character has matured to at least young adulthood, so the question of youth doesn't really matter.

Don't gimp anyone, give them their share, if it's more than the O.C.C.'s base; or if the books says to add them together, then add them together.

Otherwise, just give them the O.C.C.'s base P.P.E.

Prysus wrote:snip....

Comment/Theory: Well, as commented earlier (started by one of my posts I believe), with youth comes a higher P.P.E. Now, as stated in one of my earlier posts, Human teenage P.P.E. (minimum 9 and maximum 66, without counting any physical skills) is very similar to Elf child P.P.E. (minimum 10 and maximum 60). ...snip

*wonders where Prysus got his numbers*

the ppe for non-mages in the PF2 main book
humans: children till 18: 5-30 adults: 2-12
elves: children till 16: 10-60 adults: 5-30

non-mage humans from BTS main
child till 13: 12-42
teens between 14-19: 4-24
adults 20 and up: 3-18

These are no where near the number you posted Prysus. No I didn't add in any PE number because the book does not state to add them in for non-mages. Thus, physical skills do not factor into the non-mage PPE base.

If they wanted to change the formula for the base PPE they could of done it in DB's of NA, but fom what I could see they didn't.

Misfit KotLD wrote:Prysus, I'm not even going to read a piece that tries to seriously apply game mechanics language to in character dialog. It works for parodies like OotS, but doesn't work so good when applied seriously.

Seriously, did you think that the scenario was meant to be serious? I'll admit my attempts at humor may be slightly off at times (I'm better at serious writing than humor, but doing that scenario seriously would have probably came off more as an attack which I didn't want), but the line before it saying things like "aimed for humor" I'd like to think was a tip off it wasn't meant to be taken too seriously. That's the main reason I posted the scenario after the more important/serious stuff above it.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Prysus wrote:snip....

Comment/Theory: Well, as commented earlier (started by one of my posts I believe), with youth comes a higher P.P.E. Now, as stated in one of my earlier posts, Human teenage P.P.E. (minimum 9 and maximum 66, without counting any physical skills) is very similar to Elf child P.P.E. (minimum 10 and maximum 60). ...snip

*wonders where Prysus got his numbers*

As for this, turn to page 180 of PF2 Main Book. Read Step Three: Understanding Magic and Individual P.P.E. It goes into Human P.P.E. a bit more than the snippet at the back of the book. Hmm ... okay, I think that should cover things. Thank you for your time and patience all. Farewell and safe journeys.

Prysus wrote:
As for this, turn to page 180 of PF2 Main Book. Read Step Three: Understanding Magic and Individual P.P.E. It goes into Human P.P.E. a bit more than the snippet at the back of the book. Hmm ... okay, I think that should cover things. Thank you for your time and patience all. Farewell and safe journeys.

I see it... but its ilrelivent to a mage's final L1 base PPE, because to become a mage that extra PPE is used up/burned off in the development of their skills.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Prysus wrote:
As for this, turn to page 180 of PF2 Main Book. Read Step Three: Understanding Magic and Individual P.P.E. It goes into Human P.P.E. a bit more than the snippet at the back of the book. Hmm ... okay, I think that should cover things. Thank you for your time and patience all. Farewell and safe journeys.

I see it... but its ilrelivent to a mage's final L1 base PPE, because to become a mage that extra PPE is used up/burned off in the development of their skills.

*Sigh.* I really wish I knew if my thoughts are that confusing, or is it people just not reading it through. Okay, I'll try it again and break down the thought.

You must train to be a mage, right? I don't think anyone is contesting this thought. Let's say you finish training at age 17 (youngest by the book in the Background section) just for reference. Now, technically this is still a teen which would mean that the mage has to LOSE power when becoming a full adult because he had to use P.P.E. to get the skills he already learned. Naturally, that's silly. Okay, let's say he burned them when he became a wizard. Which means he would have been STRONGER as an apprentice, and then LOST power as he developed. This is also silly (at least in my opinion). Why would he have lost power? Because when does someone start training? A day or two before they become the O.C.C.? No, it would take years. So you have to start your training at a far younger age. So saying they're spending P.P.E. to develop their abilities will translate into they're spending P.P.E. to gain P.P.E. (among other things). Possible, but again I would say kind of silly. So this is what I was suggesting ...

Since they start at such an earlier age (when their powers are at their height), they don't necessarily lose this increased power. Since they're training, they can either A) Learn how to not to lose it and develop abilities other ways or B) Learn to tap into other sources of P.P.E. so they're not using their personal reserve.

Am I saying that this heightened P.P.E. number should be ADDED to the Permanent Base P.P.E. of the O.C.C.? No I am not. I am contesting that it may indeed already be factored in as part of the base. Confused? Just in case I did lose people, I'll try an example (a serious one too).

Jack and Jill, Human and Elf (don't ask which is which) are both kids. Both have around 30 P.P.E. because they're young and at the height of their power (but mostly just average kids and not the higher ends, for the example). In their training, they learn how to not lose this peak of their power. Instead, in their training, the learn how to make it grow even more! A few years down the line Jack and Jill both become wizards. Now, Tom and Scott, their fathers), have 7 P.P.E. and 16 P.P.E. respectively (Elf having the higher). The elf is higher because they're both adults, and both have lost their peak of power. Jack and Jill though are both wizards, and their Permanent Base P.P.E. is the same (or rolled the same) even though if they were normal adults the elf would likely have higher. Why are they the same? Because they developed their power while it was at the peak and on a fairly even level (they COULD be different, but the ranges are still in the same ballpark).

Earlier it was asked why would two different races have the same P.P.E. as a Wizard (magic O.C.C. in general actually) if one has a slightly higher base P.P.E. as a race (so the elf has 5D6 and humans have 2D6). Whether someone agrees or not, or thinks the idea is insane is another matter. An explanation was asked for earlier, and when I think of them I tend to say them. However, with that said, I still don't believe someone who trained in a magic O.C.C. would be burning off their P.P.E the same as a non-magic O.C.C. Agree or not I don't much mind. I seek comprehension. Understand and think I'm crazy I can accept. Not being able to understand it and I feel the need to explain. Anyways, hopefully I'm done. Thanks for your time once again. Farewell and safe journeys.

Edit/Add On (like 5 minutes after I posted): For those curious, with this theory (that all races would have a similar P.P.E. level at the height of their power), it may also indicate elves have a higher P.P.E. base because they just don't burn as much P.P.E. developing skills and abilities. This is a higher racial base because they have developed in a way that requires less of a P.P.E. burn/drain. Just part of my odd thoughts.

Wow this has gotten pretty crazy...

Ok, so, read DBoNA, simple as that and you'll see that if you read through EVERY race that there are ones that specifically state that you either add their racial PPE (Blucies), or don't, when choosing a magic OCC.

The reason for this is simple...children and babies have higher base PPE for several races the reason for this is their starting base PPE is an untapped and un-educated potential...

As the child grows older his PPE goes down until its at the base of 2d6 (or whatever it is for their race) when he finally matures into an adult. The reason for this is that the child, as he has aged has been taught and learned various skills...and I think that we can all agree on the fact that the more skills you possess the less your PPE will be (for whatever reason, the book states that PPE can be lower depending on how many skills are chosen).

See? Simple as that...now when you look at a magic using OCC and say, "but thats not right! they still have tons of skills and a high amount of PPE!"...the reason for that is because when they start their training to be a magic user they are taught to tap into their unknown potential and also taught how to harness that energy. This is the reason why you don't add the extra 2d6 or whatever from humans or whatever races PPE base, because that number is changed into the base PPE of the OCC they are learning.

The only exception to this are the races with naturally higher PPE that specifically state that they can add their racial amount to their OCC. The reasons for each race being stated in their racial history usually.

I don't know if I could get any clearer, it's right there in the books if you just read it, there's no need to interperet, it's black and white as far as I'm concerned. Use it or don't I don't care....