Re: Powers in rifts
Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:41 am
IMO, it depends on the power level everyone's wanting to play in.
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Johnnycat93 wrote:This is my favorite post.
EVER.
Akashic Soldier; How Do We Get More People To Play Rifts, page 4 wrote:OKAY, as for this whole "G.M.s should allow everything B.S." (and it is B.S.!), that is the surest way to destroy a game. Its not only a matter of power, its also a matter of theme. If ANYTHING flies, than you end up with Cyber Knights/Cosmo Knights in your gungry NGR Cyberpunk Style game and Mages in your Coalition games, and weird combinations of superhero powers that are "unbalancing"
See, the concept that there is no game balance in Palladium is a lie and a misconception. Its just "balance" is based more off contribution over "power", just like in comic books or film. Each player should have the ability to contribute just as much as everyone else, regardless of their "power level" as per the Justice League or Avengers. The problem is, a lot of players want to be Superman but don't want the vulnerability to Kryptonite or any sort of emotional attachment/connection to any other person/place/thing. Worse, most of the time the players who want to be superheroes are power-gamers that essentially want power for nothing. "Why would I want to learn magic or be psionic when I can shoot blasts that do more damage and have no P.P.E. or I.S.P. cost? Plus, if its a superpower than no one can take it away and I don't need E-Clips."
This makes for BAD long stories unless that is the theme of the entire game, without vulnerabilities, weaknesses (mechanical or psychological "Being a child, etc.") than super powers CAN allow a character to turn themselves an unassailable wall. In fact, my first experience with super powers was someone pitching a character to me who was invulnerable (+700 M.D.C. and impervious to most forms of attack), and could turn into gas (which essentially made them impervious to the only things that could hurt them). Worse, the character was just "a mutant" who was "born that way" and looked 100% human. In fact, they were attractive. No drawback. No weakness, and an impressive suite of skills since they were a Vagabond. So, this character was essentially going to dominate every aspect of the game and take away a lot from the other players. "If we can get super powers, than **** being a juicer!" said another of my players, and from a mechanical point of view he'd be right. Why would anyone want to play someone with the flaws of a Crazy or a Juicer if you can just slap super-powers on another character?
That is my problem with it. So, I typically do not allow it. That said, in my current game, I gave each of my players a random superpower (rolled at random) from the book of heroes. However, none of them knew that coming into the game, so they're all still learning the origins of these powers, what they mean, and how to use them. So obviously I have NO PROBLEM with superpowers. However, I want them to be important, or interesting, or effect the character, rather than just being an excuse to have power X, Y, and Z at no cost, without bothering to thinking of how that would impact the story or your fellow players.
Anyone who seriously expects me to let ANYONE play WHATEVER they want without regard for the group, my plot, or the game's theme/setting, is frankly being a bit of a short sighted jerk. If I allow something, it is because it is manageable. If I don't, its because its not. If I am playing a HIGH POWER game (my last attempt ended with my players having no interest in being all-powerful, ironically enough), than I typically allow anything, even super-powers. However, I expect it to be done well and people doing DUMB ****, like picking power combinations just to make them completely impervious to all forms of damage in the game should still expect a hard no, and as a Game Master that is my RIGHT. Likewise, I think if MORE G.M.s just said "No" than people would typically have better game experiences.
And before that is refuted, I've had "power gamers" come to me after the fact and thank me. It took a LONG time (about six game sessions; 1 and a half months of regular gaming), for them to "realize" and "level up" enough to see it, but its happened.
wyrmraker wrote:To quote Johnnycat93:
"Lord no,
I think super powers are pure evil and do not let them anywhere near my campaigns, for I fear the consequences would be terrible...
At first, all would appear normal. But then it would begin: the earth would become dry and cracked, the seas would turn the blackest of black, and one would be able to taste the vile char of rot on the air. Then, one day, the sun would simply fail to rise and the world would be cast into an eternal twilight. Creatures born in this age of shadow would be abominations of nature, a product of the twisted existence which spawned them. The separation between planes would be abolished, and one world would leak into the next. From betwixt the very fabric of space and time horrors would arise to plague the dying universe, eldritch aberrations drawn from the inky darkness of mans mind. Then, life as we know it would simply give up. Ley lines would flash an angry red, facilitating the destruction of everything around them. Animals would cease trying to survive and would just starve on the forest floor as the trees burned around them. Psychics would be able to sense the inaudible screams of a dying universe and would be driven mad by the cacophony of voices. From here the End will make its presence known as he will rise up from amongst the chaos, boring his way into the very essence of creation. Those that look upon it will know serenity in its form and will be immolated in its glory. Finally, as the embers of life burn out across the expanse of space, it will utter from its mouth the song that destroys the world..."
For my own experience, I have created walking devastation using super powers in Rifts as a lesson to a GM who didn't understand just how powerful this stuff could get. A few Minor powers and suddenly I have 8 attacks per melee, add in power armor training and that could get bumped to at least ten.
At first level.
Nightmask wrote:wyrmraker wrote:To quote Johnnycat93:
"Lord no,
I think super powers are pure evil and do not let them anywhere near my campaigns, for I fear the consequences would be terrible...
At first, all would appear normal. But then it would begin: the earth would become dry and cracked, the seas would turn the blackest of black, and one would be able to taste the vile char of rot on the air. Then, one day, the sun would simply fail to rise and the world would be cast into an eternal twilight. Creatures born in this age of shadow would be abominations of nature, a product of the twisted existence which spawned them. The separation between planes would be abolished, and one world would leak into the next. From betwixt the very fabric of space and time horrors would arise to plague the dying universe, eldritch aberrations drawn from the inky darkness of mans mind. Then, life as we know it would simply give up. Ley lines would flash an angry red, facilitating the destruction of everything around them. Animals would cease trying to survive and would just starve on the forest floor as the trees burned around them. Psychics would be able to sense the inaudible screams of a dying universe and would be driven mad by the cacophony of voices. From here the End will make its presence known as he will rise up from amongst the chaos, boring his way into the very essence of creation. Those that look upon it will know serenity in its form and will be immolated in its glory. Finally, as the embers of life burn out across the expanse of space, it will utter from its mouth the song that destroys the world..."
For my own experience, I have created walking devastation using super powers in Rifts as a lesson to a GM who didn't understand just how powerful this stuff could get. A few Minor powers and suddenly I have 8 attacks per melee, add in power armor training and that could get bumped to at least ten.
At first level.
So you went out of your way to create a problem for the GM just to perpetuate an anti-superpowers bias? Wrong lesson to be teaching.
Johnnycat93 wrote:wyrmraker wrote:To quote Johnnycat93:
"Lord no,
I think super powers are pure evil and do not let them anywhere near my campaigns, for I fear the consequences would be terrible...
At first, all would appear normal. But then it would begin: the earth would become dry and cracked, the seas would turn the blackest of black, and one would be able to taste the vile char of rot on the air. Then, one day, the sun would simply fail to rise and the world would be cast into an eternal twilight. Creatures born in this age of shadow would be abominations of nature, a product of the twisted existence which spawned them. The separation between planes would be abolished, and one world would leak into the next. From betwixt the very fabric of space and time horrors would arise to plague the dying universe, eldritch aberrations drawn from the inky darkness of mans mind. Then, life as we know it would simply give up. Ley lines would flash an angry red, facilitating the destruction of everything around them. Animals would cease trying to survive and would just starve on the forest floor as the trees burned around them. Psychics would be able to sense the inaudible screams of a dying universe and would be driven mad by the cacophony of voices. From here the End will make its presence known as he will rise up from amongst the chaos, boring his way into the very essence of creation. Those that look upon it will know serenity in its form and will be immolated in its glory. Finally, as the embers of life burn out across the expanse of space, it will utter from its mouth the song that destroys the world..."
For my own experience, I have created walking devastation using super powers in Rifts as a lesson to a GM who didn't understand just how powerful this stuff could get. A few Minor powers and suddenly I have 8 attacks per melee, add in power armor training and that could get bumped to at least ten.
At first level.
This is my favorite post.
EVER.
kaid wrote:It really depends on the campaign being played. If you are doing a phase world one why not the super heros are no more crazy than cosmo knights. If you are playing rifts it depends on the overall power level the GM is comfortable with. If they allow GB pilots and things of that nature I would not have much problem with a super hero.
One thing though I would highly recommend is not letting players pick their powers or maybe at most let them pick one. If you let people pick their powers then you better be ready for the crazy stuff you are likely to get. There are a few powers that if comboed together are WAY OP and that guy is just going to dominate your game. If the players actually have to use all the character generation random charts the chance of them getting a character that is totally off the hook is low. There are a lot of useful super powers that really are not that strong especially in a MDC setting and you are likely to wind up with somebody in the headhunter/borg power range.
Let people pick though and you have people with 800+mdc who can fly at the speed of light and can kill glitterboys with one shot.
flatline wrote:kaid wrote:It really depends on the campaign being played. If you are doing a phase world one why not the super heros are no more crazy than cosmo knights. If you are playing rifts it depends on the overall power level the GM is comfortable with. If they allow GB pilots and things of that nature I would not have much problem with a super hero.
One thing though I would highly recommend is not letting players pick their powers or maybe at most let them pick one. If you let people pick their powers then you better be ready for the crazy stuff you are likely to get. There are a few powers that if comboed together are WAY OP and that guy is just going to dominate your game. If the players actually have to use all the character generation random charts the chance of them getting a character that is totally off the hook is low. There are a lot of useful super powers that really are not that strong especially in a MDC setting and you are likely to wind up with somebody in the headhunter/borg power range.
Let people pick though and you have people with 800+mdc who can fly at the speed of light and can kill glitterboys with one shot.
I disagree with this recommendation.
If they don't want to use the random charts, DO NOT make them use the random charts. Let them choose all their powers and if they choose a power or combination of powers you don't want in your game, tell them so they can go back and make different choices.
--flatline
Icefalcon wrote:flatline wrote:kaid wrote:It really depends on the campaign being played. If you are doing a phase world one why not the super heros are no more crazy than cosmo knights. If you are playing rifts it depends on the overall power level the GM is comfortable with. If they allow GB pilots and things of that nature I would not have much problem with a super hero.
One thing though I would highly recommend is not letting players pick their powers or maybe at most let them pick one. If you let people pick their powers then you better be ready for the crazy stuff you are likely to get. There are a few powers that if comboed together are WAY OP and that guy is just going to dominate your game. If the players actually have to use all the character generation random charts the chance of them getting a character that is totally off the hook is low. There are a lot of useful super powers that really are not that strong especially in a MDC setting and you are likely to wind up with somebody in the headhunter/borg power range.
Let people pick though and you have people with 800+mdc who can fly at the speed of light and can kill glitterboys with one shot.
I disagree with this recommendation.
If they don't want to use the random charts, DO NOT make them use the random charts. Let them choose all their powers and if they choose a power or combination of powers you don't want in your game, tell them so they can go back and make different choices.
--flatline
Question, since I do not own HU and don't intend on getting it. Does the character generation in that system include random power charts as part of the creation process?
Icefalcon wrote:flatline wrote:kaid wrote:It really depends on the campaign being played. If you are doing a phase world one why not the super heros are no more crazy than cosmo knights. If you are playing rifts it depends on the overall power level the GM is comfortable with. If they allow GB pilots and things of that nature I would not have much problem with a super hero.
One thing though I would highly recommend is not letting players pick their powers or maybe at most let them pick one. If you let people pick their powers then you better be ready for the crazy stuff you are likely to get. There are a few powers that if comboed together are WAY OP and that guy is just going to dominate your game. If the players actually have to use all the character generation random charts the chance of them getting a character that is totally off the hook is low. There are a lot of useful super powers that really are not that strong especially in a MDC setting and you are likely to wind up with somebody in the headhunter/borg power range.
Let people pick though and you have people with 800+mdc who can fly at the speed of light and can kill glitterboys with one shot.
I disagree with this recommendation.
If they don't want to use the random charts, DO NOT make them use the random charts. Let them choose all their powers and if they choose a power or combination of powers you don't want in your game, tell them so they can go back and make different choices.
--flatline
Question, since I do not own HU and don't intend on getting it. Does the character generation in that system include random power charts as part of the creation process?
Nightmask wrote:Icefalcon wrote:flatline wrote:kaid wrote:It really depends on the campaign being played. If you are doing a phase world one why not the super heros are no more crazy than cosmo knights. If you are playing rifts it depends on the overall power level the GM is comfortable with. If they allow GB pilots and things of that nature I would not have much problem with a super hero.
One thing though I would highly recommend is not letting players pick their powers or maybe at most let them pick one. If you let people pick their powers then you better be ready for the crazy stuff you are likely to get. There are a few powers that if comboed together are WAY OP and that guy is just going to dominate your game. If the players actually have to use all the character generation random charts the chance of them getting a character that is totally off the hook is low. There are a lot of useful super powers that really are not that strong especially in a MDC setting and you are likely to wind up with somebody in the headhunter/borg power range.
Let people pick though and you have people with 800+mdc who can fly at the speed of light and can kill glitterboys with one shot.
I disagree with this recommendation.
If they don't want to use the random charts, DO NOT make them use the random charts. Let them choose all their powers and if they choose a power or combination of powers you don't want in your game, tell them so they can go back and make different choices.
--flatline
Question, since I do not own HU and don't intend on getting it. Does the character generation in that system include random power charts as part of the creation process?
It has optional random tables one can use in lieu of simply selecting.
kaid wrote:Nightmask wrote:Icefalcon wrote:flatline wrote:kaid wrote:It really depends on the campaign being played. If you are doing a phase world one why not the super heros are no more crazy than cosmo knights. If you are playing rifts it depends on the overall power level the GM is comfortable with. If they allow GB pilots and things of that nature I would not have much problem with a super hero.
One thing though I would highly recommend is not letting players pick their powers or maybe at most let them pick one. If you let people pick their powers then you better be ready for the crazy stuff you are likely to get. There are a few powers that if comboed together are WAY OP and that guy is just going to dominate your game. If the players actually have to use all the character generation random charts the chance of them getting a character that is totally off the hook is low. There are a lot of useful super powers that really are not that strong especially in a MDC setting and you are likely to wind up with somebody in the headhunter/borg power range.
Let people pick though and you have people with 800+mdc who can fly at the speed of light and can kill glitterboys with one shot.
I disagree with this recommendation.
If they don't want to use the random charts, DO NOT make them use the random charts. Let them choose all their powers and if they choose a power or combination of powers you don't want in your game, tell them so they can go back and make different choices.
--flatline
Question, since I do not own HU and don't intend on getting it. Does the character generation in that system include random power charts as part of the creation process?
It has optional random tables one can use in lieu of simply selecting.
Actually this I am pretty sure the exact opposite of how it is listed. Manually picking the powers is optional and the recommended method is the random tables.
kaid wrote:Actually this I am pretty sure the exact opposite of how it is listed. Manually picking the powers is optional and the recommended method is the random tables.
Nightmask wrote:kaid wrote:Nightmask wrote:Icefalcon wrote:
Question, since I do not own HU and don't intend on getting it. Does the character generation in that system include random power charts as part of the creation process?
It has optional random tables one can use in lieu of simply selecting.
Actually this I am pretty sure the exact opposite of how it is listed. Manually picking the powers is optional and the recommended method is the random tables.
I was remembering the Power Category section where selecting is listed first rather than rolling. BUT it does note that even the random rolls are 'at the approval and discretion of the GM', so there's no real point to the random rolls if the GM is just going to veto what you got anyway. May as well allow selection and go from there since the end result is the same. Less irritation on the part of the player towards the GM that way, since if he beat the odds for something impressive he wanted it'll be more annoying than simply choosing and being told that a particular power isn't workable.
kaid wrote:With the random generation method should not be much need/reason to veto powers. Most of the powers are fine by themselves it is the synergy some combos give that turn what is a strong but reasonable power into a god on earth.
say652 wrote:um 800mdc is only possible with one type of hero, the megahero. which to be honest is not much stronger than a full conversion borg or a heavy power armor. i mean there aren't many things a few railgun blasts cannot kill.
Johnnycat93 wrote:Zamion138 wrote:say652 wrote:um 800mdc is only possible with one type of hero, the megahero. which to be honest is not much stronger than a full conversion borg or a heavy power armor. i mean there aren't many things a few railgun blasts cannot kill.
Couple things with that....cyborgs look inhuman, have to pay for repairs, weigh a ton, cant pick up chicks, cant retire in obscuriety, have restrictions in major cities, show up on radar and a bunch of the things mechanical and roleplay wise.
PA pilotes have all the same things and are also sdc outside armor. Stand out in a fight and can have their "power" stolen, disabled or impounded due to not pay the rent on the garge you keep it in.
The 800 mdc super can regenerate,blend in with people,not set off dog boys like a dragon in chitown, can wear a suit of armor in a robot. Doesnt need to worry about armor costs, social stigmas, or a whole host of roleplaying points. The player has to go out of their way to leave living enemies that will talk about what they saw to become a target.
The super hero is the juicer+dragon+ human. With all the bennifits and none of the negatives.
The real issue I am finding with super powers is that the rules from HU and the one from RUE interact so poorly. For example, take Sonic Flight. In HU it gives you a nice dodge bonus, some more health, and a good flight speed. Not bad at all really. However, throw that sucker into rifts and it gets a insane power boost. You see, too my knowledge HU possesses no rule for striking fast moving targets, RUE does. With a flight speed of 670 mph anyone shooting at our hero now has a -15 to strike. This penalty requires no action on the hero's part and he can still dodge if need be. So this power has gone from being simply convenient in HU, to "good luck killing me" in RUE.
Johnnycat93 wrote:Zamion138 wrote:say652 wrote:um 800mdc is only possible with one type of hero, the megahero. which to be honest is not much stronger than a full conversion borg or a heavy power armor. i mean there aren't many things a few railgun blasts cannot kill.
Couple things with that....cyborgs look inhuman, have to pay for repairs, weigh a ton, cant pick up chicks, cant retire in obscuriety, have restrictions in major cities, show up on radar and a bunch of the things mechanical and roleplay wise.
PA pilotes have all the same things and are also sdc outside armor. Stand out in a fight and can have their "power" stolen, disabled or impounded due to not pay the rent on the garge you keep it in.
The 800 mdc super can regenerate,blend in with people,not set off dog boys like a dragon in chitown, can wear a suit of armor in a robot. Doesnt need to worry about armor costs, social stigmas, or a whole host of roleplaying points. The player has to go out of their way to leave living enemies that will talk about what they saw to become a target.
The super hero is the juicer+dragon+ human. With all the bennifits and none of the negatives.
The real issue I am finding with super powers is that the rules from HU and the one from RUE interact so poorly. For example, take Sonic Flight. In HU it gives you a nice dodge bonus, some more health, and a good flight speed. Not bad at all really. However, throw that sucker into rifts and it gets a insane power boost. You see, too my knowledge HU possesses no rule for striking fast moving targets, RUE does. With a flight speed of 670 mph anyone shooting at our hero now has a -15 to strike. This penalty requires no action on the hero's part and he can still dodge if need be. So this power has gone from being simply convenient in HU, to "good luck killing me" in RUE.
Mercdog wrote:I'll allow them, but generally only for low powered 'Average Joe' O.C.C.s (for example the Merc Soldier, City Rat, Rogue Scholar, Wilderness Scout, or CS Grunt.)
Before you start spouting something as fact make sure you know exactly what you are talking about.say652 wrote:um 800mdc is only possible with one type of hero, the megahero. which to be honest is not much stronger than a full conversion borg or a heavy power armor. i mean there aren't many things a few railgun blasts cannot kill.
Damian Magecraft wrote:Before you start spouting something as fact make sure you know exactly what you are talking about.say652 wrote:um 800mdc is only possible with one type of hero, the megahero. which to be honest is not much stronger than a full conversion borg or a heavy power armor. i mean there aren't many things a few railgun blasts cannot kill.
Conversion Book 1 revised states that beings with APS powers are MDC while in the altered state.
While in the altered state the characters SDC becomes MDC.
HU2 APS metal- AR 17 SDC 800...
And that is with just one power (I can exceed that through the judicious selection of skills and other powers.)
Care to rephrase that statement about only Mega-heroes hitting that number?
say652 wrote:Damian Magecraft wrote:Before you start spouting something as fact make sure you know exactly what you are talking about.say652 wrote:um 800mdc is only possible with one type of hero, the megahero. which to be honest is not much stronger than a full conversion borg or a heavy power armor. i mean there aren't many things a few railgun blasts cannot kill.
Conversion Book 1 revised states that beings with APS powers are MDC while in the altered state.
While in the altered state the characters SDC becomes MDC.
HU2 APS metal- AR 17 SDC 800...
And that is with just one power (I can exceed that through the judicious selection of skills and other powers.)
Care to rephrase that statement about only Mega-heroes hitting that number?
Well Damian in the conversion it state,in english even, that alter physical structure metal provides 600mdc. and AR does not apply in a mdc realm. sooo pffftttt. yo
say652 wrote:Damian Magecraft wrote:Before you start spouting something as fact make sure you know exactly what you are talking about.say652 wrote:um 800mdc is only possible with one type of hero, the megahero. which to be honest is not much stronger than a full conversion borg or a heavy power armor. i mean there aren't many things a few railgun blasts cannot kill.
Conversion Book 1 revised states that beings with APS powers are MDC while in the altered state.
While in the altered state the characters SDC becomes MDC.
HU2 APS metal- AR 17 SDC 800...
And that is with just one power (I can exceed that through the judicious selection of skills and other powers.)
Care to rephrase that statement about only Mega-heroes hitting that number?
Well Damian in the conversion it state,in english even, that alter physical structure metal provides 600mdc. and AR does not apply in a mdc realm. sooo pffftttt. yo
Damian Magecraft wrote:Of course both the original and revised editions of Conversion Book 1 were written prior to the introduction of the PU books...
And every "I want super powers in Rifts" player I have ever had come to my games wants at least one PU power... Which means now if I (the GM) do allow it I have to bench mark if the power grants MDC or not and by how much.
Yet another reason to disallow them.
Not with standing the line in both books (at the start of the Powers conversion notes) that says...
The inclusion of Characters, Super Powers, and any other elements from Heroes Unlimited, or any other game, is left strictly to the Game Master. The Characters do not have to be part of any Rifts campaign.
So there you have it in black in white.
The inclusion of any non-Rifts material is up to the GM not the player.
A GM that exercises that right is not in the wrong, a bad, or Lazy GM.
If any thing that makes him a Good one for actually exercising control over HIS game world.
Icefalcon wrote:Damian Magecraft wrote:Of course both the original and revised editions of Conversion Book 1 were written prior to the introduction of the PU books...
And every "I want super powers in Rifts" player I have ever had come to my games wants at least one PU power... Which means now if I (the GM) do allow it I have to bench mark if the power grants MDC or not and by how much.
Yet another reason to disallow them.
Not with standing the line in both books (at the start of the Powers conversion notes) that says...
The inclusion of Characters, Super Powers, and any other elements from Heroes Unlimited, or any other game, is left strictly to the Game Master. The Characters do not have to be part of any Rifts campaign.
So there you have it in black in white.
The inclusion of any non-Rifts material is up to the GM not the player.
A GM that exercises that right is not in the wrong, a bad, or Lazy GM.
If any thing that makes him a Good one for actually exercising control over HIS game world.
And powers are not the only thing that the GM has discretion over. Many times throughout every Palladium books they use the phrase "at the GM's discretion".
Damian Magecraft wrote:Me I allow super powered characters in my games on a case by case basis.
Typically I limit them to my Mutant tribes. (powers breed true in my games)
No random powers and power selection is limited to those select powers available to the specific tribe.
Icefalcon wrote:Damian Magecraft wrote:Me I allow super powered characters in my games on a case by case basis.
Typically I limit them to my Mutant tribes. (powers breed true in my games)
No random powers and power selection is limited to those select powers available to the specific tribe.
Do you allow the super option for Vagabonds or the Super Spy (from Mercenaries)?
flatline wrote:Mercdog wrote:I'll allow them, but generally only for low powered 'Average Joe' O.C.C.s (for example the Merc Soldier, City Rat, Rogue Scholar, Wilderness Scout, or CS Grunt.)
Conversion book says scholars and adventurers, which, traditionally, excludes men at arms like the Merc Soldier and CS Grunt, but really your way isn't deviating enough to make a difference. Of course, if you have a CS Grunt with super powers, he'd better be careful to hide them lest his superiors learn he's not a "true" human.
--flatline