Human Mecha (RPG) Effectiveness Results (1E, 2E, M2)
Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2025 3:48 pm
For the purposes of this thread I am treating the old 1E Robotech RPB and the more recent 2E Robotech RPG put out by Palladium Books as their own self-contained Robotech universes, and I ask that everyone respect that. Yes I know the 1E PB RPG has issues when compared to other media, that is in part why I ask to respect the decision to treat it as its own self contained universe so that we can all be on the same page and can put those issues down to the 1E being (treated as) its own self-contained universe. Nor do we have to contend with Houserule "fixes" that may not be uniform in terms of mechanical values.
How do the human mecha give/take damage effectivenss (overall) compare in each of the RPG Universes (for the human factions in Robotech 1E, Robotech 2E, and Macross 2)? Now the RPG has a random element built into the game coming from the players (tactics/strategy/choices) and the dice, but both can be factored out to an extent. The dice are factored out by assigning an expected result (ie damage roll is always average) in a given scenerio (more later), or that you will always hit (even though some % of the time you should miss). Even player randomness can be factored out by dictating the choices will always be X (explained as an inexperienced 1st level character/player using a basic tactic and placed in a constant state of simulatnous action). To answer the question I created a computer script(s) to run the scenerios, as this would be quicker and easier than trying to do all the combinations in a spreadsheet (though each scenerio and matchup should be doable in a spreadsheet, the number of combinations make it impractical).
To run this computer script I am going with a Rules as Written approach, with minor tweaks made in the sole interst of making the programing simplier to write. Those tweaks are as follows:
-. For game stats I am using them as they appear in my copies of the books (1E=Sentinels, 2E=TSC manga size, Macross 2). I have included most mecha (but not all) 1E and 2E PB Mecha for Robotech and IINM all the ones in Macross 2 (I avoided combiner setups like the Glaug/Sled, Alpha/Beta, Invid Booster Scout-types, along with the Bioroid Trimuvroid, though I do use the Bioroid with and w/o its Hoversled, I also avoided the various AI Drones except the RFS Defense drones in 1E but did include the prototypes/IMUs). The mecha are typically in their "standard" or typical configuration based on the books.
-. All variable sized attacks (missile volley size, burst size) are fixed, missiles are always fired in Volleys of 2, and burst attacks are at the short burst size for ammunition consumed and damage in 1E. (The only exception made was for the 1E RDF Raider X, to avoid the issue of how to handle its 16APM short bursts vs pilot 4-5, short bursts are capped at 4 per melee unless otherwise indicated in the entry that it can do more as the rules only allow for 4 short or 2 long or 1 full burst. Note 2E seems to have done away with the short/long/full bursts for a uniform burst). In both cases it is easier to apply a uniform size to the attacks than trying to determine how many missiles to fire (and if it can fire that many in a volley) or what burst size (and track useage in 1E, not really an issue for 2E). Single Round mode of damage is used if a burst capable weapon does not list a burst damage. Note on Missile Volley size, with the exception of the RL-6 (which for this was reclassified as a gun system) all other missile systems should be capable of firing a volley of 2 IINM (and if not, that is a slight change, IINM though it shouldn't be issue at all or for many).
-. Mecha are assumed to have only 1 operator and all pilots are assumed to be 1st Level with the boxing skill and a Hand to Hand (specific is not important) applying only for APM and Mecha Combat Elite (APM and other bonuses), strike/parry/dodge/roll from all skills (exception WP) and attributes are not factored in (this is due to the variable nature of the characters, technically I should have cut boxing). 2E I factor in Race (Zentreadi) and go with the best possible OCC/MOS combination for relevant factors.
-. Some aspects of the RPG rules are not emulated: Roll with damage (since some weapons used can not be rolled with), Piloting manuevers (Tilt-Dodge, Stunt, Evasive actions, etc), Missile Defense Options, exotic combat action types (ie entangling). Movement penalties are not considered (given their location in the main 1E RPG context seems to imply they are for people outside their mecha). The Shadow Device is treated as non-operational, and all mecha are assumed to be Protoculture powered (Invid PC targeting bonuses would apply if factoring in die rolls). Laser Resistant Materials are considered (how much of impact this will have I'm not sure given so few enemy mecha actually use lasers as main weapon) in 1E (but not 2E, they use a different standard IIRC) and Destablizer's hole punching capability in force fields is not available.
-. the only MDC tracked is the main body (designated parrying shields apply in some scenerios, NOTE: Force Fields are treated as a parrying shield as long as they have a defined value). No Invid Eye-type vulnerability.
-. Payloads. Those units with reloads available have them as a free action, this includes but not limited to the 1E Beta's missiles (MM-80), 1E Gunpods (GU-XX, EU-13, EU-12), 1E Hovertank (autocannon). Recharging Rates are not available (only 1 case in 1E IIRC, impacts 2E more), and unlimited payload weapons are treated as a payload of 2,000 rounds (based on 1E Bioroid projectile Gunpod having unlimited payload and notes estimate 2,000 rounds, the other two examples similar to this list 1,000 are are used in those specific instances). All missile types selected are for the ones with the most damage followed by range (SRM=Armor Piercing, MRM=Plasma) unless otherwise restricted (Plasma Mini Missiles in 1E are heavily restricted to specific launchers, those launchers retain them making the others Armor Piercing). For simplicity Missiles are assumed to have a travel time equal to one attack action to reach their target (this way I don't have to factor in the missile speed, the launch platform's speed, or targets's speed and direction, etc).
-. Weapon Systems are also limited to the standard setup (exception the Bioroid, I consider it with and without its hoversled and the bioroid is NOT using the beam gunpod but its projectile gunpod plus the Cyclone's w/ and w/o the sidecar and the standard 4 configuration options: VR-051F w/EP-37 but no H-90, VR-051T, VR-038LT w/RL-6, VR-041 w/H-90 in 1E). Weapon use order is by Range First (high to low), then payload (in cases of range ties, the smaller payload goes first), then damage (high to low after considering payload). The mecha is limited to one weapon system at a time and must expend the entire payload before switching to a new weapon (it can't switch back and forth). Note mecha that are highly configurable like the Cyclone or Silverback I have avoided doing all possible combinations.
-. Mecha are considered to be mode agnostic, this removes any mode based limitation for firing weapon systems (in any case aside from the Cyclone, VT transformation is a free action IINM regardless, though Macross 2 does have it cost an action).
-. Listed Dice Damage Codes are converted to values where each die is 1d4=2.5, 1d6=3.5, 1d8=4.5, 1d10=5.5.
-. Range value is a bit different, I factor in the distance covered by the closing speed between the two mecha (converted to proper units) for that action to evaluate if it is in range at any time during the action.
Now the main obvious drawbacks can be summed up as: This does not utilize things that are covered by tactics or strategy (and mechanical bonuses/modifiers and manuevers, even initiative order) that could tilt the outcome if they had been included. Burst/Volley limitation are also a negative factor, and preventing back-and-forth weapon switching (a weapon selection lasts until payload is completely expended). The lack of the die roll mechanics (Criticals, miss, etc) also a drawback, but in this case avoids the issue of lucky/unlucky streak. Even the way a few of the gun systems are picked in terms of use (payload vs damage after range) could be seen as a negative.
I ran several scenerios, all modified the first scenerio script to fit there unique aspects. Scenerios are (letter in paranthesis is for easy idendification in the results listing):
-Average (A): Damage dealt and received assumes an average damage result. A mecha is delcared as the human mecha and then faces repeating waves of 1v1 situations against alien mecha, and when the alien is destroyed a fresh replacement starts at the same distance as the just destroyed unit. The scenerio starts at the maximum weapon range available (capped at 10mile/16km) between the two, the closing rate was dictated by the enemy mecha's top speed (capped at 800mph, this doesn't impact to many alien mecha) unless the human mecha is out of weapon's range. Distance covered is calculated at the end of each human mecha turn, and the absolute value is calculated (this prevents creation of negative values, which means they passed each other and had to each turn around which since they both have to do it I treated as a free action). A Kill Cap of 250 was implemented (so any mecha with a score of 250 could potentially be higher).
-Parry (P): As Average, only difference is that if either mecha has MDC parrying shields it is factored into the Main Body value. Technically this would not be available in a simulatanous action, but it allows one to consider what it would look like in a more normal interactions (ie non-simultanous) when they could parry. This means a mecha could do better (surive longer) or worse (enemy mecha takes more hits to take down) than the AVG result.
-Maximum (X): As Average, however the Human mecha does maximum damage on a die roll while the alien mecha does minimum damage. Ideally this is where the PCs want to be.
-Minimum (N): As Average, however the human mecha does minimum damage on a die roll while the alien mecha does maximum damage. Ideally this is not where the PCs want to be.
-Ambush (T): As Average, however the starting distance is the shorter weapon range (ex. VF-1 w/SRMs vs Battlepod PBCs, in Average starting range would be based on the SRM, here it is the shorter range PBC)
-Guns Only (G): As Average, only missile systems are not used at all. A score of Zero (0) can mean either one party was not able to fight (ex. the RDF Spartan Destroid) or couldn't get a kill at all.
-HTH Only (H): As Average, only everyone is using melee attacks. A score of Zero (0) can mean either one party was not able to fight (ex. the Zentreadi Fighter Pod) or couldn't get a kill at all.
The Results are grouped by the Human Mecha name with a sort order based on the Average damage then Max then Min with scores for each scenario, note all scores are averaged together before sorted. Order of the scenarios is: Average, Parry, Maximum, Minimum, Ambush, Guns Only, HTH.
Quick Notes:
-1. The Script was Written to run inside a Microsoft Access 2000 Database Form in Visual Basic for Applications language, if there is interest in the script I will post it but it likely will require modification to get working outside of this specific environment (Access VBA, justing doing in a straight Visual Basic Environment will require modifications). This was a hobby project so I no doubt there are more effective ways to write the code.
-2. If there is interest in a breakdown on specific mecha (and universe) I can provide it, but the raw dump would be too large
-3. I can do cross-over matchups, including Rifts (I don't have all the Rifts books, so if I don't have the relevant book or such... and they would be divided into RMB and RUE eras). In theory the script and table setup is versittile enough to allow things like reverse matchups (ie POV of the alien mecha), round robin matchups (ie everyone vs everyone else, though I think I might have to alter the script slightly to skip the vs self situation that wouldn't be possible in true round robin), and "Civil War" matchups (ie faction on faction w/n the Alien or Human camp) with no changes or altering a faction flag in the underlying data tables.
-4. This is an old project that was collecting dust due to a windows update and I recently fixed the issue (hey Windows 10 running a 25year old-ish software, bound to be issues). There where a few other scenerios I wanted to try, but couldn't get to work properly IIRC (so they might be present in the code if its posted).
How do the human mecha give/take damage effectivenss (overall) compare in each of the RPG Universes (for the human factions in Robotech 1E, Robotech 2E, and Macross 2)? Now the RPG has a random element built into the game coming from the players (tactics/strategy/choices) and the dice, but both can be factored out to an extent. The dice are factored out by assigning an expected result (ie damage roll is always average) in a given scenerio (more later), or that you will always hit (even though some % of the time you should miss). Even player randomness can be factored out by dictating the choices will always be X (explained as an inexperienced 1st level character/player using a basic tactic and placed in a constant state of simulatnous action). To answer the question I created a computer script(s) to run the scenerios, as this would be quicker and easier than trying to do all the combinations in a spreadsheet (though each scenerio and matchup should be doable in a spreadsheet, the number of combinations make it impractical).
To run this computer script I am going with a Rules as Written approach, with minor tweaks made in the sole interst of making the programing simplier to write. Those tweaks are as follows:
-. For game stats I am using them as they appear in my copies of the books (1E=Sentinels, 2E=TSC manga size, Macross 2). I have included most mecha (but not all) 1E and 2E PB Mecha for Robotech and IINM all the ones in Macross 2 (I avoided combiner setups like the Glaug/Sled, Alpha/Beta, Invid Booster Scout-types, along with the Bioroid Trimuvroid, though I do use the Bioroid with and w/o its Hoversled, I also avoided the various AI Drones except the RFS Defense drones in 1E but did include the prototypes/IMUs). The mecha are typically in their "standard" or typical configuration based on the books.
-. All variable sized attacks (missile volley size, burst size) are fixed, missiles are always fired in Volleys of 2, and burst attacks are at the short burst size for ammunition consumed and damage in 1E. (The only exception made was for the 1E RDF Raider X, to avoid the issue of how to handle its 16APM short bursts vs pilot 4-5, short bursts are capped at 4 per melee unless otherwise indicated in the entry that it can do more as the rules only allow for 4 short or 2 long or 1 full burst. Note 2E seems to have done away with the short/long/full bursts for a uniform burst). In both cases it is easier to apply a uniform size to the attacks than trying to determine how many missiles to fire (and if it can fire that many in a volley) or what burst size (and track useage in 1E, not really an issue for 2E). Single Round mode of damage is used if a burst capable weapon does not list a burst damage. Note on Missile Volley size, with the exception of the RL-6 (which for this was reclassified as a gun system) all other missile systems should be capable of firing a volley of 2 IINM (and if not, that is a slight change, IINM though it shouldn't be issue at all or for many).
-. Mecha are assumed to have only 1 operator and all pilots are assumed to be 1st Level with the boxing skill and a Hand to Hand (specific is not important) applying only for APM and Mecha Combat Elite (APM and other bonuses), strike/parry/dodge/roll from all skills (exception WP) and attributes are not factored in (this is due to the variable nature of the characters, technically I should have cut boxing). 2E I factor in Race (Zentreadi) and go with the best possible OCC/MOS combination for relevant factors.
-. Some aspects of the RPG rules are not emulated: Roll with damage (since some weapons used can not be rolled with), Piloting manuevers (Tilt-Dodge, Stunt, Evasive actions, etc), Missile Defense Options, exotic combat action types (ie entangling). Movement penalties are not considered (given their location in the main 1E RPG context seems to imply they are for people outside their mecha). The Shadow Device is treated as non-operational, and all mecha are assumed to be Protoculture powered (Invid PC targeting bonuses would apply if factoring in die rolls). Laser Resistant Materials are considered (how much of impact this will have I'm not sure given so few enemy mecha actually use lasers as main weapon) in 1E (but not 2E, they use a different standard IIRC) and Destablizer's hole punching capability in force fields is not available.
-. the only MDC tracked is the main body (designated parrying shields apply in some scenerios, NOTE: Force Fields are treated as a parrying shield as long as they have a defined value). No Invid Eye-type vulnerability.
-. Payloads. Those units with reloads available have them as a free action, this includes but not limited to the 1E Beta's missiles (MM-80), 1E Gunpods (GU-XX, EU-13, EU-12), 1E Hovertank (autocannon). Recharging Rates are not available (only 1 case in 1E IIRC, impacts 2E more), and unlimited payload weapons are treated as a payload of 2,000 rounds (based on 1E Bioroid projectile Gunpod having unlimited payload and notes estimate 2,000 rounds, the other two examples similar to this list 1,000 are are used in those specific instances). All missile types selected are for the ones with the most damage followed by range (SRM=Armor Piercing, MRM=Plasma) unless otherwise restricted (Plasma Mini Missiles in 1E are heavily restricted to specific launchers, those launchers retain them making the others Armor Piercing). For simplicity Missiles are assumed to have a travel time equal to one attack action to reach their target (this way I don't have to factor in the missile speed, the launch platform's speed, or targets's speed and direction, etc).
-. Weapon Systems are also limited to the standard setup (exception the Bioroid, I consider it with and without its hoversled and the bioroid is NOT using the beam gunpod but its projectile gunpod plus the Cyclone's w/ and w/o the sidecar and the standard 4 configuration options: VR-051F w/EP-37 but no H-90, VR-051T, VR-038LT w/RL-6, VR-041 w/H-90 in 1E). Weapon use order is by Range First (high to low), then payload (in cases of range ties, the smaller payload goes first), then damage (high to low after considering payload). The mecha is limited to one weapon system at a time and must expend the entire payload before switching to a new weapon (it can't switch back and forth). Note mecha that are highly configurable like the Cyclone or Silverback I have avoided doing all possible combinations.
-. Mecha are considered to be mode agnostic, this removes any mode based limitation for firing weapon systems (in any case aside from the Cyclone, VT transformation is a free action IINM regardless, though Macross 2 does have it cost an action).
-. Listed Dice Damage Codes are converted to values where each die is 1d4=2.5, 1d6=3.5, 1d8=4.5, 1d10=5.5.
-. Range value is a bit different, I factor in the distance covered by the closing speed between the two mecha (converted to proper units) for that action to evaluate if it is in range at any time during the action.
Now the main obvious drawbacks can be summed up as: This does not utilize things that are covered by tactics or strategy (and mechanical bonuses/modifiers and manuevers, even initiative order) that could tilt the outcome if they had been included. Burst/Volley limitation are also a negative factor, and preventing back-and-forth weapon switching (a weapon selection lasts until payload is completely expended). The lack of the die roll mechanics (Criticals, miss, etc) also a drawback, but in this case avoids the issue of lucky/unlucky streak. Even the way a few of the gun systems are picked in terms of use (payload vs damage after range) could be seen as a negative.
I ran several scenerios, all modified the first scenerio script to fit there unique aspects. Scenerios are (letter in paranthesis is for easy idendification in the results listing):
-Average (A): Damage dealt and received assumes an average damage result. A mecha is delcared as the human mecha and then faces repeating waves of 1v1 situations against alien mecha, and when the alien is destroyed a fresh replacement starts at the same distance as the just destroyed unit. The scenerio starts at the maximum weapon range available (capped at 10mile/16km) between the two, the closing rate was dictated by the enemy mecha's top speed (capped at 800mph, this doesn't impact to many alien mecha) unless the human mecha is out of weapon's range. Distance covered is calculated at the end of each human mecha turn, and the absolute value is calculated (this prevents creation of negative values, which means they passed each other and had to each turn around which since they both have to do it I treated as a free action). A Kill Cap of 250 was implemented (so any mecha with a score of 250 could potentially be higher).
-Parry (P): As Average, only difference is that if either mecha has MDC parrying shields it is factored into the Main Body value. Technically this would not be available in a simulatanous action, but it allows one to consider what it would look like in a more normal interactions (ie non-simultanous) when they could parry. This means a mecha could do better (surive longer) or worse (enemy mecha takes more hits to take down) than the AVG result.
-Maximum (X): As Average, however the Human mecha does maximum damage on a die roll while the alien mecha does minimum damage. Ideally this is where the PCs want to be.
-Minimum (N): As Average, however the human mecha does minimum damage on a die roll while the alien mecha does maximum damage. Ideally this is not where the PCs want to be.
-Ambush (T): As Average, however the starting distance is the shorter weapon range (ex. VF-1 w/SRMs vs Battlepod PBCs, in Average starting range would be based on the SRM, here it is the shorter range PBC)
-Guns Only (G): As Average, only missile systems are not used at all. A score of Zero (0) can mean either one party was not able to fight (ex. the RDF Spartan Destroid) or couldn't get a kill at all.
-HTH Only (H): As Average, only everyone is using melee attacks. A score of Zero (0) can mean either one party was not able to fight (ex. the Zentreadi Fighter Pod) or couldn't get a kill at all.
The Results are grouped by the Human Mecha name with a sort order based on the Average damage then Max then Min with scores for each scenario, note all scores are averaged together before sorted. Order of the scenarios is: Average, Parry, Maximum, Minimum, Ambush, Guns Only, HTH.
Quick Notes:
-1. The Script was Written to run inside a Microsoft Access 2000 Database Form in Visual Basic for Applications language, if there is interest in the script I will post it but it likely will require modification to get working outside of this specific environment (Access VBA, justing doing in a straight Visual Basic Environment will require modifications). This was a hobby project so I no doubt there are more effective ways to write the code.
-2. If there is interest in a breakdown on specific mecha (and universe) I can provide it, but the raw dump would be too large
-3. I can do cross-over matchups, including Rifts (I don't have all the Rifts books, so if I don't have the relevant book or such... and they would be divided into RMB and RUE eras). In theory the script and table setup is versittile enough to allow things like reverse matchups (ie POV of the alien mecha), round robin matchups (ie everyone vs everyone else, though I think I might have to alter the script slightly to skip the vs self situation that wouldn't be possible in true round robin), and "Civil War" matchups (ie faction on faction w/n the Alien or Human camp) with no changes or altering a faction flag in the underlying data tables.
-4. This is an old project that was collecting dust due to a windows update and I recently fixed the issue (hey Windows 10 running a 25year old-ish software, bound to be issues). There where a few other scenerios I wanted to try, but couldn't get to work properly IIRC (so they might be present in the code if its posted).