Energy Disruption
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:32 am
Does Energy Disruption affect TW apparatus?
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mobuttu wrote:Does Energy Disruption affect TW apparatus?
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:mobuttu wrote:Does Energy Disruption affect TW apparatus?
It will disrupt any mechanics in TW stuff, but not the magic.
mobuttu wrote:Carefull reading makes me say "no". Invocation description from BoM states that affect electrical devices. So, AFAIK, I wouldn't say TW apparatus are electrical (they are PPE pumped instead). Do you agree?
asajosh wrote:mobuttu wrote:Carefull reading makes me say "no". Invocation description from BoM states that affect electrical devices. So, AFAIK, I wouldn't say TW apparatus are electrical (they are PPE pumped instead). Do you agree?
Exactly correct, even TW devices that use or generate electricity (lightning spells, etc) are NOT electrical devices. Strictly speaking they are still magical (running on PPE as you pointed out), not electrical.
I stand by my assertion that Energy Disruption should not effect TW devices.
Killer Cyborg wrote:asajosh wrote:mobuttu wrote:Carefull reading makes me say "no". Invocation description from BoM states that affect electrical devices. So, AFAIK, I wouldn't say TW apparatus are electrical (they are PPE pumped instead). Do you agree?
Exactly correct, even TW devices that use or generate electricity (lightning spells, etc) are NOT electrical devices. Strictly speaking they are still magical (running on PPE as you pointed out), not electrical.
I stand by my assertion that Energy Disruption should not effect TW devices.
If they're a device that uses electricity, then they're an electrical device.
asajosh wrote:drewkitty ~..~ wrote:mobuttu wrote:Does Energy Disruption affect TW apparatus?
It will disrupt any mechanics in TW stuff, but not the magic.
no it won't, thats what Negate Mechanics is for.
asajosh wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:asajosh wrote:mobuttu wrote:Carefull reading makes me say "no". Invocation description from BoM states that affect electrical devices. So, AFAIK, I wouldn't say TW apparatus are electrical (they are PPE pumped instead). Do you agree?
Exactly correct, even TW devices that use or generate electricity (lightning spells, etc) are NOT electrical devices. Strictly speaking they are still magical (running on PPE as you pointed out), not electrical.
I stand by my assertion that Energy Disruption should not effect TW devices.
If they're a device that uses electricity, then they're an electrical device.
Respectfully KC: TW devices use PPE, even if they produce electricity
Killer Cyborg wrote:asajosh wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:asajosh wrote:mobuttu wrote:Carefull reading makes me say "no". Invocation description from BoM states that affect electrical devices. So, AFAIK, I wouldn't say TW apparatus are electrical (they are PPE pumped instead). Do you agree?
Exactly correct, even TW devices that use or generate electricity (lightning spells, etc) are NOT electrical devices. Strictly speaking they are still magical (running on PPE as you pointed out), not electrical.
I stand by my assertion that Energy Disruption should not effect TW devices.
If they're a device that uses electricity, then they're an electrical device.
Respectfully KC: TW devices use PPE, even if they produce electricity
If you're talking about a TW Generator, sure.
But if electricity runs through the devices wires in order to produce the effect of the device, then it's an electrical device, no matter what produces that electricity.
That's why flashlights aren't "Lithium devices" (or whatever other stuff is in batteries that produces the electrical charge).
asajosh wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote: if electricity runs through the devices wires in order to produce the effect of the device, then it's an electrical device, no matter what produces that electricity.
That's why flashlights aren't "Lithium devices" (or whatever other stuff is in batteries that produces the electrical charge).
But we're not talking about flash lights, we're talking about a magical devise.
An internal combustion engine produces electricity (in the form of an alternator), but it is not an electrical device.
A device is generally classified by its power source.
Thats the line I draw, if it runs on PPE, its a magical devise (and not subject ot negate mechanics or energy disruption. thats what anti-magic cloud is for), regardless of the effect it has.
Killer Cyborg wrote:asajosh wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote: if electricity runs through the devices wires in order to produce the effect of the device, then it's an electrical device, no matter what produces that electricity.
That's why flashlights aren't "Lithium devices" (or whatever other stuff is in batteries that produces the electrical charge).
But we're not talking about flash lights, we're talking about a magical devise.
We could be talking about flashlights; the device in question was never specified.An internal combustion engine produces electricity (in the form of an alternator), but it is not an electrical device.
Right, because it produces electricity.
On the other hand, the car's radio, headlights, etc., that use that electricity ARE electrical devices.A device is generally classified by its power source.
So a flashlight IS an acid-device?Thats the line I draw, if it runs on PPE, its a magical devise (and not subject ot negate mechanics or energy disruption. thats what anti-magic cloud is for), regardless of the effect it has.
It's not an either/or situation.
An electrical device can also be a magical device.
asajosh wrote:Read the spell again, its VERY anti-tech.
Its the magical equivalent of an EMP, and EMP's don't stop magic.
For 12 PPE, I don't think its intended to be as flexible as you seem to.
Killer Cyborg wrote:asajosh wrote:Read the spell again, its VERY anti-tech.
Its the magical equivalent of an EMP, and EMP's don't stop magic.
For 12 PPE, I don't think its intended to be as flexible as you seem to.
EMPs knock out electricity, so if the device uses electricity, the device is affected by the spell.
asajosh wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:asajosh wrote:Read the spell again, its VERY anti-tech.
Its the magical equivalent of an EMP, and EMP's don't stop magic.
For 12 PPE, I don't think its intended to be as flexible as you seem to.
EMPs knock out electricity, so if the device uses electricity, the device is affected by the spell.
And there's the rub, I draw a distinction between USING electricity as opposed to creating it via PPE expenditure. But that's just where you and I differ. Que sera sera.
Killer Cyborg wrote:asajosh wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:asajosh wrote:Read the spell again, its VERY anti-tech.
Its the magical equivalent of an EMP, and EMP's don't stop magic.
For 12 PPE, I don't think its intended to be as flexible as you seem to.
EMPs knock out electricity, so if the device uses electricity, the device is affected by the spell.
And there's the rub, I draw a distinction between USING electricity as opposed to creating it via PPE expenditure. But that's just where you and I differ. Que sera sera.
Why would it make a difference?
The spell takes out electricity.
If the device USES electricity, and that electricity is disrupted, how could the device continue to function?
And why would it matter how the electricity is created?
asajosh wrote:In game terms, there are spells desigend to disrupt technology and other spells designed to disrupt magic (and TW devices). This is a spell to disrupt technology. Simple as that.
Killer Cyborg wrote:asajosh wrote:In game terms, there are spells desigend to disrupt technology and other spells designed to disrupt magic (and TW devices). This is a spell to disrupt technology. Simple as that.
Except:
1. That seems like a pretty random assumption.
2. Techno-Wizardry is a blend of technology and magic.
It's a mix of both, and when appropriate it's affected by both.
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:asajosh wrote:drewkitty ~..~ wrote:mobuttu wrote:Does Energy Disruption affect TW apparatus?
It will disrupt any mechanics in TW stuff, but not the magic.
no it won't, thats what Negate Mechanics is for.
*takes out a pen and crosses out 'mechanics' and writes in 'electrical bits'*
asajosh wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:asajosh wrote:In game terms, there are spells desigend to disrupt technology and other spells designed to disrupt magic (and TW devices). This is a spell to disrupt technology. Simple as that.
Except:
1. That seems like a pretty random assumption.
2. Techno-Wizardry is a blend of technology and magic.
It's a mix of both, and when appropriate it's affected by both.
1. Random? Ahem, first sentence in the spell description itself: "A particularly useful magic in a tech environment," Then the examples of all the things it effects: "...this includes normal automobiles, computers, radios, surveilance cameras, snesors, appliances, entire fuse boxes, batteries, electronic alarm systems, etc." seems pretty anti-tech to me...
2. The "technology" is often just the form, or a "framework" to give spells function. How techno is a sword? yet there are dozens of canon TW sword variants (electrical ones too).
Killer Cyborg wrote:asajosh wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:asajosh wrote:In game terms, there are spells desigend to disrupt technology and other spells designed to disrupt magic (and TW devices). This is a spell to disrupt technology. Simple as that.
Except:
1. That seems like a pretty random assumption.
2. Techno-Wizardry is a blend of technology and magic.
It's a mix of both, and when appropriate it's affected by both.
1. Random? Ahem, first sentence in the spell description itself: "A particularly useful magic in a tech environment," Then the examples of all the things it effects: "...this includes normal automobiles, computers, radios, surveilance cameras, snesors, appliances, entire fuse boxes, batteries, electronic alarm systems, etc." seems pretty anti-tech to me...
Because it targets electricity, and tech tends to use electricty.
The assumption that I was talking about is that the spell somehow is not supposed to work on magic devices. That the EMP effect somehow decides, "Whoops! This isn't a tech device; I'd better move on...", and that that's the way the spell is supposed to work.
The use of the word "normal" is simply there because the spell doesn't work on military vehicles, as is mentioned at the end of the spell description.
There is no mention of the spell not working on TW automobiles.2. The "technology" is often just the form, or a "framework" to give spells function. How techno is a sword? yet there are dozens of canon TW sword variants (electrical ones too).
Not swords that use electricity to function, so the spell wouldn't have any effect on a TW sword.
How techno is a laser rifle? A walkman? A flashlight? An automobile? A radio? An electric engine?
I'll answer for you: Very.
And these are all examples of possible TW devices.
You could argue that a TW device doesn't use electricity at all anymore, since the workings aren't fully described, but you cannot logically argue that a device that uses electricity is not an "electrical device", and you cannot logically argue that a magical device that uses electricity is not also an electrical device.
Or that it's somehow immune to the spell.
asajosh wrote:Ya got me, normal was meant as non-hardened, my bad
moving on, those devices you mentioned, yes very tech. But once they have their guts ripped out and replaced with gems, they ain't tech, they are magic. Simple as that.
And another thing, in your opinion an lighting TW sword works when hit with Energy Disruption? Am I reading that right? If so, explain.
And once again:
Magical devices use PPE no matter what their effect, even if tht effect is to create electricity.
There is a difference between the fuel and the product.
Killer Cyborg wrote:You could argue that a TW device doesn't use electricity at all anymore, since the workings aren't fully described, but you cannot logically argue that a device that uses electricity is not an "electrical device", and you cannot logically argue that a magical device that uses electricity is not also an electrical device.
Or that it's somehow immune to the spell.
asajosh wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:You could argue that a TW device doesn't use electricity at all anymore, since the workings aren't fully described, but you cannot logically argue that a device that uses electricity is not an "electrical device", and you cannot logically argue that a magical device that uses electricity is not also an electrical device.
Or that it's somehow immune to the spell.
Never have I said that a device that uses electricity is not an electrical device. Not once.
And Magical devices (specifically TW, not rune or anything else) run on PPE, not electricity, that has been my argument all along and plainly posted several times.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Then why on Earth have you been arguing with me?
asajosh wrote:TW devices are powered by PPE. Its not "concentrate PPE, slap in an E-Clip" for a reason. The act of flipping a switch or pulling a trigger is not always needed. Pure Magic.
TW Lightning Sword is the same as the flaming sword on RUE pg 137, substituting lightning spells for fire. I'll paw thru all the canon TW swords later.
Quote Killer Cyborg:
"If the device produces electricity, then it could not (be affected by Energy Disruption)."
That's what I've been plainly saying all along since my first post. Jeez the original poster speaks english as a second language and he got it right off. Glad to see you've come around.
asajosh wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Then why on Earth have you been arguing with me?
I didn't start out arguing with you, just stating a different (some might say more correct) interpretation of a spell write up.
I admit I'm a little heated now that you have gone beyond mis-quoting me to make some point, but you have made up something for me to say so you can conter-point it.
mobuttu wrote:Does Energy Disruption affect TW apparatus?
Killer Cyborg wrote:Which indicates that you don't think that the spell would work on a TW Flashlight, even if it uses electricity, because TW devices are Magic, not Tech.
mobuttu wrote:After reading all the answers I think I got it!
- As TW apparatus are usually PPE pumped with no electricity circulating in their inner workings, then ED won't affect them (e.g. firebolt gun).
- If there is a TW device that for any reason produce, storage or use electricity to function (e.g. TW generator, Lighting sword, etc.) then ED stops that part/effect of the TW. I mean, imagine a TW vehicle (non-military) with an electrical generator tied to it and a battery to storage the electricity used for recharging normal E-Clips. With ED you could knock out these electrical devices but not the whole vehicle, as it is PPE pumped.
Q.
asajosh wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Which indicates that you don't think that the spell would work on a TW Flashlight, even if it uses electricity, because TW devices are Magic, not Tech.
Why would a TW flashlight use electricity? Globe of Daylight, Lantern Light those get the job done, no electricity needed.
Tell us what YOU think, not what I think.
My posts are perfectly clear, again the ESL guy got it.
Don't read things into what i post. Its easier that way. If you don't understand what I say, ask/ I'm here to help
asajosh wrote:mobuttu wrote:After reading all the answers I think I got it!
- As TW apparatus are usually PPE pumped with no electricity circulating in their inner workings, then ED won't affect them (e.g. firebolt gun).
- If there is a TW device that for any reason produce, storage or use electricity to function (e.g. TW generator, Lighting sword, etc.) then ED stops that part/effect of the TW. I mean, imagine a TW vehicle (non-military) with an electrical generator tied to it and a battery to storage the electricity used for recharging normal E-Clips. With ED you could knock out these electrical devices but not the whole vehicle, as it is PPE pumped.
Q.
Sounds good to me, I expand my bounderies a little. Perfecto!
Killer Cyborg wrote:asajosh wrote:mobuttu wrote:After reading all the answers I think I got it!
- As TW apparatus are usually PPE pumped with no electricity circulating in their inner workings, then ED won't affect them (e.g. firebolt gun).
- If there is a TW device that for any reason produce, storage or use electricity to function (e.g. TW generator, Lighting sword, etc.) then ED stops that part/effect of the TW. I mean, imagine a TW vehicle (non-military) with an electrical generator tied to it and a battery to storage the electricity used for recharging normal E-Clips. With ED you could knock out these electrical devices but not the whole vehicle, as it is PPE pumped.
Q.
Sounds good to me, I expand my bounderies a little. Perfecto!
That's what I've been saying all along.
asajosh wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:asajosh wrote:mobuttu wrote:After reading all the answers I think I got it!
- As TW apparatus are usually PPE pumped with no electricity circulating in their inner workings, then ED won't affect them (e.g. firebolt gun).
- If there is a TW device that for any reason produce, storage or use electricity to function (e.g. TW generator, Lighting sword, etc.) then ED stops that part/effect of the TW. I mean, imagine a TW vehicle (non-military) with an electrical generator tied to it and a battery to storage the electricity used for recharging normal E-Clips. With ED you could knock out these electrical devices but not the whole vehicle, as it is PPE pumped.
Q.
Sounds good to me, I expand my bounderies a little. Perfecto!
That's what I've been saying all along.
Thats what you were saying in the end, not all along. If it was all along, perhaps take your own advice and work on clarity versus volume. Well, as long as we're all on the same page now.
Please in future debates stick with one version of rifts, either RMB or UE, not really kosher to throw two sets of rules at a fella. No hard feelings KC.
Killer Cyborg wrote:asajosh wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:asajosh wrote:mobuttu wrote:After reading all the answers I think I got it!
- As TW apparatus are usually PPE pumped with no electricity circulating in their inner workings, then ED won't affect them (e.g. firebolt gun).
- If there is a TW device that for any reason produce, storage or use electricity to function (e.g. TW generator, Lighting sword, etc.) then ED stops that part/effect of the TW. I mean, imagine a TW vehicle (non-military) with an electrical generator tied to it and a battery to storage the electricity used for recharging normal E-Clips. With ED you could knock out these electrical devices but not the whole vehicle, as it is PPE pumped.
Q.
Sounds good to me, I expand my bounderies a little. Perfecto!
That's what I've been saying all along.
Thats what you were saying in the end, not all along. If it was all along, perhaps take your own advice and work on clarity versus volume. Well, as long as we're all on the same page now.
"If they're a device that uses electricity, then they're an electrical device." seems pretty darned clear to me.
As does:
"if electricity runs through the devices wires in order to produce the effect of the device, then it's an electrical device, no matter what produces that electricity. "
In fact, it doesn't just seem clear; it IS clear.Please in future debates stick with one version of rifts, either RMB or UE, not really kosher to throw two sets of rules at a fella. No hard feelings KC.
It's not exactly two sets of rules.
RUE doesn't mention the PPE Conversion aspect of technowizardry, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's no longer a function of technowizardry.
And TW devices in both sets of rules include tech devices (armor, vehicles, etc) with TW modifications on them.
asajosh wrote: You can continue to argue this if you like, considering you make up things that others have said then argue that, it should be no prob for ya.